FAA vs JAA IR
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A mate of mine did the FAA IR, went home and completed in the 15 hours. He is now flying A320s for about the past 3 months.
From talking to people who have done both it seems to be all swings-and-roundabouts. The FAA IR has parts which JAA dont cover and likewise, for instance they can have you shoot a GPS approach in the FAA IR, I dont believe that is the case in JAA land. I had also heard that the JAA IR is a lot of single needle tracking. I dont know if anyone has actually sat down and listed the differences?
Also, dont forget the oral exam in the FAA IR, you can learnt things parrot fashion for your writtens but the examiner will crucify you on the oral so you have to know your onions or you wont even get as far as the flight test.
All this arguing about which is better than the other is irrelevant and to be honest amongst my mates who have done conversions, doesnt hold any water!!!
Do it, use it, enjoy it!
Julian.
From talking to people who have done both it seems to be all swings-and-roundabouts. The FAA IR has parts which JAA dont cover and likewise, for instance they can have you shoot a GPS approach in the FAA IR, I dont believe that is the case in JAA land. I had also heard that the JAA IR is a lot of single needle tracking. I dont know if anyone has actually sat down and listed the differences?
Also, dont forget the oral exam in the FAA IR, you can learnt things parrot fashion for your writtens but the examiner will crucify you on the oral so you have to know your onions or you wont even get as far as the flight test.
All this arguing about which is better than the other is irrelevant and to be honest amongst my mates who have done conversions, doesnt hold any water!!!
Do it, use it, enjoy it!
Julian.
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I think you get a friendly examiner with the FAA guys drop him some bucks and hey you get the IR while you have a drink of cofee/ Forget about any tricky flying stuff.
I think the CAA guys are a bit more tricky and they say hey you student guys you do all this test to a very strict time. You tell me what time you get to the waypoint I give you 2 mins flexibility. I see everybody say how easy the CAA/IR is but I see none of these guys have a CAA/IR. This get me very confused. You go to these training places they say the FAA/IR is same as iMC!
I think the CAA guys are a bit more tricky and they say hey you student guys you do all this test to a very strict time. You tell me what time you get to the waypoint I give you 2 mins flexibility. I see everybody say how easy the CAA/IR is but I see none of these guys have a CAA/IR. This get me very confused. You go to these training places they say the FAA/IR is same as iMC!
Jet Blast Rat
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Ah, no nouseforaname, I see your problem, where you are making your error. It sums you up! You are more interested in money than in actually having a job you enjoy. That is fine. However you cannot assume everyone is ass avaricious as you are.
I changed from a potentially very lucrative career in the oil industry (I could have been on well over US$90k by now, especially with today's oil price) to aviation so I could enjoy the job, not for the money. Hence I would rather get some experience on an aircraft that couldlead to some buch flying in Africa (what I really want, but according to my contacts hard to get at the moment without some time on type, and they use Kingairs out there).
However if I did want a lot of money, flying a 747 at 300 hours sounds a reasonable way of doing it. I am sure by the time he is as old as the chap you know (I hesitate to accuse you af having friends, since that outburst) my friend and former student will be on well over 75,000 Euros. How many people with US licences fly commercial jets with 2-300 hours? It's quite common with a JAA licence.
Of course I would only fly your rich arse around in a B200 briefly, as then I would use the experience to go and do something more interesting, with people who were not quite so arrogant and unpleasant.
(what kind of person says "...just sums you up mate" to someone they never met? When what supposedly sums me up is nothing nasty, just my own private preference? That really is nasty. Especially then to go on to assume money is the only important thing in the world. Ever looked at your values, nouse?)
Julian
You can't expect to pass the JAA exams learning things "parrot fashion". I teach for them, and have had enough students try. There is just too much information; if you try to learn it by rote, without understanding, then you really struggle to pass.
I like the US system of a strong oral test, but I have taught more than one student with a US ATPL who has had great difficulty with the JAA written exams, even having been warned they were more difficult they could not believe how much they had to understand. One was completely unable to do calculations I would expect of a JAA PPL holder, and required by their exams. And yes, that is an FAA ATPL, not CPL.
I changed from a potentially very lucrative career in the oil industry (I could have been on well over US$90k by now, especially with today's oil price) to aviation so I could enjoy the job, not for the money. Hence I would rather get some experience on an aircraft that couldlead to some buch flying in Africa (what I really want, but according to my contacts hard to get at the moment without some time on type, and they use Kingairs out there).
However if I did want a lot of money, flying a 747 at 300 hours sounds a reasonable way of doing it. I am sure by the time he is as old as the chap you know (I hesitate to accuse you af having friends, since that outburst) my friend and former student will be on well over 75,000 Euros. How many people with US licences fly commercial jets with 2-300 hours? It's quite common with a JAA licence.
Of course I would only fly your rich arse around in a B200 briefly, as then I would use the experience to go and do something more interesting, with people who were not quite so arrogant and unpleasant.
(what kind of person says "...just sums you up mate" to someone they never met? When what supposedly sums me up is nothing nasty, just my own private preference? That really is nasty. Especially then to go on to assume money is the only important thing in the world. Ever looked at your values, nouse?)
Julian
You can't expect to pass the JAA exams learning things "parrot fashion". I teach for them, and have had enough students try. There is just too much information; if you try to learn it by rote, without understanding, then you really struggle to pass.
I like the US system of a strong oral test, but I have taught more than one student with a US ATPL who has had great difficulty with the JAA written exams, even having been warned they were more difficult they could not believe how much they had to understand. One was completely unable to do calculations I would expect of a JAA PPL holder, and required by their exams. And yes, that is an FAA ATPL, not CPL.
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"So you tell me if FAA/IR is like a IMC! The same standard yes!"
I don't remember that IMC rating holders have to fly an ILS to a 200' minimum.
I don't think an IMC rating demands flying approaches partial panel.
Take a look at the FAA Practical Test Standards book and compare it with the couple of sides of LASORS devoted to the IMC rating.
You are talking complete and utter rubbish!
The FAA concentrate on getting you to fly the aeroplane properly, and the written and oral tests are on relevant subjects. No one suggests that on completion of the rating, you are ready to take your ATPL! What you should be able to do on passing, is fly IFR safely in the system. Flying for long journeys in cloud is not likely to be attempted by an intelligent person a day after passing, having only had comparatively few hours in training - any more than one would with a mint JAA IR. Experience must be acquired over time.
What the FAA doesn't do is waste time on anal theory that is of no use other than for taking an exam.
I don't remember that IMC rating holders have to fly an ILS to a 200' minimum.
I don't think an IMC rating demands flying approaches partial panel.
Take a look at the FAA Practical Test Standards book and compare it with the couple of sides of LASORS devoted to the IMC rating.
You are talking complete and utter rubbish!
The FAA concentrate on getting you to fly the aeroplane properly, and the written and oral tests are on relevant subjects. No one suggests that on completion of the rating, you are ready to take your ATPL! What you should be able to do on passing, is fly IFR safely in the system. Flying for long journeys in cloud is not likely to be attempted by an intelligent person a day after passing, having only had comparatively few hours in training - any more than one would with a mint JAA IR. Experience must be acquired over time.
What the FAA doesn't do is waste time on anal theory that is of no use other than for taking an exam.
Jet Blast Rat
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No, I wouldn't say that - it is definitely harder than the IMC rating. And I wouldn't say that FAA examiners are open to corruption, never met an FAA pilot who didn't earn the licence.
However the FAA IR is not to the same standard as the JAA IR - it can't be, the requirements are not so stringent. The only additional requirement I know of other than the oral is the GPS, which is not difficult - no harder than basic VOR tracking. Of course it can be done to JAA standards as has already been pointed out by englishal, but if you do so then do the conversion you save little on the other route - do the JAA in the first place. I believe it has been tried by a certain school in the UK, and most people did not save money. They gave up the scheme.
However the FAA IR is not to the same standard as the JAA IR - it can't be, the requirements are not so stringent. The only additional requirement I know of other than the oral is the GPS, which is not difficult - no harder than basic VOR tracking. Of course it can be done to JAA standards as has already been pointed out by englishal, but if you do so then do the conversion you save little on the other route - do the JAA in the first place. I believe it has been tried by a certain school in the UK, and most people did not save money. They gave up the scheme.
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We have the FAA IR, which takes a certain amount of effort to get, and we have the JAA IR, which takes a lot more effort to get.
This has led many people to suggest the FAA IR is not good enough for the job, but that is just dubious logic. It's a standard trap: if A < B that doesn't mean that A is not good enough for the purpose.
The European IR is harder simply because here in Europe everything is gold plated, in the name of "safety".
The FAA has (of the order of) 50x to 100x more PPL/IR pilots flying than the whole of Europe put together, so it is plain daft to think "we" know something they don't.
Some people have been looking very hard indeed for stats supporting an assertion that the FAA regime is less safe (especially the DfT, recently) but they haven't found anything!
This has led many people to suggest the FAA IR is not good enough for the job, but that is just dubious logic. It's a standard trap: if A < B that doesn't mean that A is not good enough for the purpose.
The European IR is harder simply because here in Europe everything is gold plated, in the name of "safety".
The FAA has (of the order of) 50x to 100x more PPL/IR pilots flying than the whole of Europe put together, so it is plain daft to think "we" know something they don't.
Some people have been looking very hard indeed for stats supporting an assertion that the FAA regime is less safe (especially the DfT, recently) but they haven't found anything!
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the FAA require the candidate to demonstrate competency in executing a partial panel non-precision instrument approach. JAR only requires a demonstration of partial panel basic attitude instrument flying and unusual attitude recovery.
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There is no question that the FAA IR is considerably cheaper and easier to obtain than the JAA IR.
You can pick and choose parts of the test that appear to support the argument.
For every FAA Partial Panel NPA, there is another area where the standards are more lax. Take the ILS maximum needle deflection for example. JAA 0.5, FAA 0.75.
This misses the point though. The objective of the FAA IR is to get people into the IFR system at a relatively early stage in the Pilot careers. Like any new pilot with a new licence, they are expected to exercise a degree of self-discipline and for the mostpart, they do.
Later on in their flying careers their instrument skills are revisited again in the FAA ATP flight test. This test is conducted almost wholely on instruments to standards rather more exacting than the JAA IRT.
There is a lot of merit to this approach. By contrast the JAA IR seems designed to accomplish the FAA ATP flight test goals all in one step, often with a student with as little as 200-300 hours total time. The result inevitably is that many schools cut corners. I can think of one in particular where its successful IFR graduates only know how to fly to Cambridge and Coventry. They are familiar with just 5 IAPs on the planet, and when asked to flight plan via airways to a "real" destination, they are lost.
Comparing the FAA and JAA IRs is a classic case of swings and roundabouts. Anybody who tries to paint a one-sided picture in favour of either flavour has an axe to grind.
2D
You can pick and choose parts of the test that appear to support the argument.
For every FAA Partial Panel NPA, there is another area where the standards are more lax. Take the ILS maximum needle deflection for example. JAA 0.5, FAA 0.75.
This misses the point though. The objective of the FAA IR is to get people into the IFR system at a relatively early stage in the Pilot careers. Like any new pilot with a new licence, they are expected to exercise a degree of self-discipline and for the mostpart, they do.
Later on in their flying careers their instrument skills are revisited again in the FAA ATP flight test. This test is conducted almost wholely on instruments to standards rather more exacting than the JAA IRT.
There is a lot of merit to this approach. By contrast the JAA IR seems designed to accomplish the FAA ATP flight test goals all in one step, often with a student with as little as 200-300 hours total time. The result inevitably is that many schools cut corners. I can think of one in particular where its successful IFR graduates only know how to fly to Cambridge and Coventry. They are familiar with just 5 IAPs on the planet, and when asked to flight plan via airways to a "real" destination, they are lost.
Comparing the FAA and JAA IRs is a classic case of swings and roundabouts. Anybody who tries to paint a one-sided picture in favour of either flavour has an axe to grind.
2D
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I'm not saying that money is the most important thing in the world.
Send Clowns as much as your going to think i'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaaly nasty for saying this...it does actually sum you up, your not a driven person. Now don't throw your toys out of your pram because that is exactly what i would interpret by your post.
I quite like employing people like you...want to know more pm me
Send Clowns as much as your going to think i'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaaly nasty for saying this...it does actually sum you up, your not a driven person. Now don't throw your toys out of your pram because that is exactly what i would interpret by your post.
I quite like employing people like you...want to know more pm me
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I think we can agree that the theory is a lot more thorough with the JAA. Albeit some of the information pushes the boundary of what could be thought of as useful, it is nevertheless comprehensive on law and met. Both are important subjects to understand.
I believe the flying IR tests are quite different. The FAA test appears to be a practical IFR sortie, the JAA a simulation of a public transport flight with an alternate. I'm not sure it is wholly appropriate to compare the two, like for like.
One thing is for sure. The JAA flying test can not be accomplished with 2 weeks training. 2 months is a more likely minimum. Many students take much longer. My experience of the FAA/IR is limited to what a well known JAA/IR instructor (farts like a rhino) says. Having taught thousands (my estimate) of students he equates the FAA/IR to an IMC. This might be partly to do with the conversion process and the difficulty of understanding the concept of the IR test here. Whatever the reason FAA students are not rated very highly by him. He willingly recalls a number of examples of pilots who haven't been able to cut the ice here but have obtained a FAA/IR in a couple of weeks.
I think the last point to note is the flying examination process in the States seems to be fundamentally different. Here the CAA appoint examiners and they have rigid guidelines. The situation in the States seems a little more relaxed without the same degree of control. As 2D rightly points out the FAA ATPL is quite a different thing and not to be confused with the PPL/IR guys.
My english teacher worked wonders last night!
I believe the flying IR tests are quite different. The FAA test appears to be a practical IFR sortie, the JAA a simulation of a public transport flight with an alternate. I'm not sure it is wholly appropriate to compare the two, like for like.
One thing is for sure. The JAA flying test can not be accomplished with 2 weeks training. 2 months is a more likely minimum. Many students take much longer. My experience of the FAA/IR is limited to what a well known JAA/IR instructor (farts like a rhino) says. Having taught thousands (my estimate) of students he equates the FAA/IR to an IMC. This might be partly to do with the conversion process and the difficulty of understanding the concept of the IR test here. Whatever the reason FAA students are not rated very highly by him. He willingly recalls a number of examples of pilots who haven't been able to cut the ice here but have obtained a FAA/IR in a couple of weeks.
I think the last point to note is the flying examination process in the States seems to be fundamentally different. Here the CAA appoint examiners and they have rigid guidelines. The situation in the States seems a little more relaxed without the same degree of control. As 2D rightly points out the FAA ATPL is quite a different thing and not to be confused with the PPL/IR guys.
My english teacher worked wonders last night!
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Another recent addition to the FAA IR is the requirement to demonstrate the use of the autopilot (if fitted). This is a great idea, as single pilot IFR without autopilot use can be more stressful than is necessary!
The IMC rating does have high standards, but if you are going to fly on instruments in cloud, you have to reach a high standard on both sides of the Atlantic - or you end up in a spiral dive :-( The minima are higher in approaches, but flying on instruments means you either do it properly or not at all.
The IMC rating does have high standards, but if you are going to fly on instruments in cloud, you have to reach a high standard on both sides of the Atlantic - or you end up in a spiral dive :-( The minima are higher in approaches, but flying on instruments means you either do it properly or not at all.
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Pilatus your dead right.
The way I look at it is that with the FAA examiners it's their business. They are like self employed people. If they fail to many people then instructors won't send thier students too them, if they pass to many people the FAA will come down on them.
Whereas the JAA examiners don't have to worry weather or not you pass or not. It's a rather unethical to give someone an IR ticket with regard to your own business reputation.
The FAA IR works for ME it lets me do everything I want to do with aviation. I bet you never thought you would hear me say this but...
if i was to have my FAMILY flying around in England/Europe in an aircraft I would perfer the pilot to be JAR qualified but the aircraft on an N reg.
The way I look at it is that with the FAA examiners it's their business. They are like self employed people. If they fail to many people then instructors won't send thier students too them, if they pass to many people the FAA will come down on them.
Whereas the JAA examiners don't have to worry weather or not you pass or not. It's a rather unethical to give someone an IR ticket with regard to your own business reputation.
The FAA IR works for ME it lets me do everything I want to do with aviation. I bet you never thought you would hear me say this but...
if i was to have my FAMILY flying around in England/Europe in an aircraft I would perfer the pilot to be JAR qualified but the aircraft on an N reg.
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bpilatus
you made more sense in your Stavros "Hello peeps" guise.
A number of knowledgeable posters have explained why FAA/IR is not = UK IMC.
By denigrating the US rating your instructor is simply trying to help you to rationalise your decision to spend your money in JAAland. It says little for your powers of perception to be unable to recognise that.
This one has been done to death, but it will run and run as long as those who have chosen the hair shirt route need to seek self-validation for their decision.
2D's said it all.
Last time.
And the time before that etc.
you made more sense in your Stavros "Hello peeps" guise.
A number of knowledgeable posters have explained why FAA/IR is not = UK IMC.
By denigrating the US rating your instructor is simply trying to help you to rationalise your decision to spend your money in JAAland. It says little for your powers of perception to be unable to recognise that.
This one has been done to death, but it will run and run as long as those who have chosen the hair shirt route need to seek self-validation for their decision.
2D's said it all.
Last time.
And the time before that etc.
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It would be a mistake to put JAA IR graduates on a pedestal.
The theoretical knowledge that a JAA IR pilot should have will be streets ahead of his FAA counterpart. On weather in particular, this can make a big difference. The FAA pilot is taught which charts tell you what you need to know, the JAA candidate is really taught to understand the weather from first principles. You can make arguments in favour of either approach.
But when it comes to flying, the big JAA schools are production lines preparing people for the IRT and little else. This often means teaching pilots the "tricks" that CAAFU wants to see, and familiarising them with just the few test routes and approaches like to be encountered.
Candidates frequently emerge successful from the test without a clue how to file a real enroute IFR flightplan. They don't understand slots, Eurocontrol, the SRD or the myriad other details vital for flying "in the system" in Europe. They have to pick those up on the fly.
Most going through those schools are scraping every penny together to get the ticket with a view to future employment. The hard earned skills rapidly deteriorate through lack of use, shortly after passing the test. I'm guessing we all know a few JAA IRs that fall into that category.
In a perfect world, the ground exams would be decluttered, the UK IRT would look more like the FAA IRT, and CAAFU would administrate the flight tests.
All of this would be achieved at US aircraft rental prices.
Like I say, Swings and Roundabouts. There is no "better" or "best".
2D
The theoretical knowledge that a JAA IR pilot should have will be streets ahead of his FAA counterpart. On weather in particular, this can make a big difference. The FAA pilot is taught which charts tell you what you need to know, the JAA candidate is really taught to understand the weather from first principles. You can make arguments in favour of either approach.
But when it comes to flying, the big JAA schools are production lines preparing people for the IRT and little else. This often means teaching pilots the "tricks" that CAAFU wants to see, and familiarising them with just the few test routes and approaches like to be encountered.
Candidates frequently emerge successful from the test without a clue how to file a real enroute IFR flightplan. They don't understand slots, Eurocontrol, the SRD or the myriad other details vital for flying "in the system" in Europe. They have to pick those up on the fly.
Most going through those schools are scraping every penny together to get the ticket with a view to future employment. The hard earned skills rapidly deteriorate through lack of use, shortly after passing the test. I'm guessing we all know a few JAA IRs that fall into that category.
In a perfect world, the ground exams would be decluttered, the UK IRT would look more like the FAA IRT, and CAAFU would administrate the flight tests.
All of this would be achieved at US aircraft rental prices.
Like I say, Swings and Roundabouts. There is no "better" or "best".
2D
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2D, I suspect the JAA production lines (albeit with the drawbacks you descibe) provide a better grounding than someone trying the system out with a FAA ticket (having obtained the rating abroad). The rating merely gives a punter the right to try out controlled airspace. There is no substitute for experience.
I agree there is no 'better or best' but there are significant differences (mentioned above). Individuals can draw their own conclusions. Having said that the FAA offers a far more practical route into controlled airspace. Of that there is (surely) no debate.
OVC- the instructors flying tales are simply humorous tales recounted in the bar. Money wasn't an issue so he wasn't trying to rationalise any decision for my benefit.
I agree there is no 'better or best' but there are significant differences (mentioned above). Individuals can draw their own conclusions. Having said that the FAA offers a far more practical route into controlled airspace. Of that there is (surely) no debate.
OVC- the instructors flying tales are simply humorous tales recounted in the bar. Money wasn't an issue so he wasn't trying to rationalise any decision for my benefit.
Last edited by bpilatus; 30th Jun 2005 at 15:14.
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2D sums up perfectly for me! Swings and roundabouts is a good analogy.
Nouse, what complete cr@p! I take it your family will only be flying between Cambridge and Coventry then? At least they will then be safe!
God help them if they ever get on a Dleta or American Airlines flight, evil N Reg. Give me a break....
Nouse, what complete cr@p! I take it your family will only be flying between Cambridge and Coventry then? At least they will then be safe!
God help them if they ever get on a Dleta or American Airlines flight, evil N Reg. Give me a break....
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Comparing the FAA and JAA IRs is a classic case of swings and roundabouts. Anybody who tries to paint a one-sided picture in favour of either flavour has an axe to grind.
If drawing attention to the FAA having an order of magnitude more PPL/IR pilots under it than the rest of planet earth put together, without problems, amounts to an "axe to grind" then I also agree.
There is no need to do a JAA ATPL to learn about weather. One can attend a very focussed 3-day course on this, showing how one can use internet sources (i.e. real 21st century stuff) to form a practical picture.
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Debating the quality of a professional exam is a dangerous game.
Not only might you want to ask your Doctor, solicitor, accountant etc from which University their degree was awarded but you would also like to know what percentage marks they achieved above the pass rate. I guess in the same way some of us do just enough to convince the examiner we should be given our VFR, IMC or IR rating, and others pass with flying colours, whatever the country of origin. Rightly all the punters and usually the candidates know is that you passed.
I remember well being told and I am sure it is true of any qualification - ok you have passed, now you start to really learn!
Not only might you want to ask your Doctor, solicitor, accountant etc from which University their degree was awarded but you would also like to know what percentage marks they achieved above the pass rate. I guess in the same way some of us do just enough to convince the examiner we should be given our VFR, IMC or IR rating, and others pass with flying colours, whatever the country of origin. Rightly all the punters and usually the candidates know is that you passed.
I remember well being told and I am sure it is true of any qualification - ok you have passed, now you start to really learn!
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Whenever this debate comes up - and it comes up a lot - it is interesting that of those posters I can identify, many have neither an FAA nor a JAA IR, and yet have formed extremely strong views on the merits of one over the other.
A view based on which one you might perceive to be easier/cheaper/more practical to get is one thing - but it shouldn't be confused with a critical evaluation of the ratings themselves.
2D
A view based on which one you might perceive to be easier/cheaper/more practical to get is one thing - but it shouldn't be confused with a critical evaluation of the ratings themselves.
2D