Skirting Around ATZs & MATZs
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why it is so bad for aircraft to skirt ATZs out of radio contact, when the ATC who manage the ATZs are quite happy to blast off airliners into an environment where non radio traffic is both permitted and known to operate.
Especially in a radar environment where you can see the traffic. If it's not squawking, or squawking 7000 with no mode 'C' indication you have no option but to treat it as worst case scenario, and hold the departure on the ground, needlessly burning fuel. I'd rather have had the 'skirter' call me so that I can ASK (not tell you notice) whether he wouldn't mind routeing via the overhead or, if they're at a decent level, stop the departure 1000ft below.
(There is something to be said for "what you can't see can't hurt you"
)
Better red than ...
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What happens on the day when primary radar is unavailable and secondary only is used ?
This appears to be more common these days.
So no transponder = NO radar presence (or TCAS indication)
This appears to be more common these days.
So no transponder = NO radar presence (or TCAS indication)
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Chill a bit guys, IMHO some of you seem to be disappearing up your own a*ses and losing the big picture
There are laws and there are rules. We know them!
There is also common sense and "best practice".
Why fly right alongside CAS if you do not need to?
Why not talk to the agency concerned if you are v close to their airspace? - it might give them some options with their traffic and you a useful heads-up as to whats about?
It may be delightful to fly without the radio, but you just have to accept that you are losing the situational awareness that talking to ATC gives you
I do not want more CAS, but do not see any point in being bloody minded about my "rights".
Yeh there are a million wot-ifs, thats why we are blessed with the ability to think. Find a sensible solution, don't be the problem.
There are laws and there are rules. We know them!
There is also common sense and "best practice".
Why fly right alongside CAS if you do not need to?
Why not talk to the agency concerned if you are v close to their airspace? - it might give them some options with their traffic and you a useful heads-up as to whats about?
It may be delightful to fly without the radio, but you just have to accept that you are losing the situational awareness that talking to ATC gives you
I do not want more CAS, but do not see any point in being bloody minded about my "rights".
Yeh there are a million wot-ifs, thats why we are blessed with the ability to think. Find a sensible solution, don't be the problem.
Avoid imitations
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Stillin1,
"It may be delightful to fly without the radio, but you just have to accept that you are losing the situational awareness that talking to ATC gives you"
I agree. How about making mode C mandatory for all powered aircraft, too? If all aircraft were to show their position and altitude on radar, ATC's job would be a little easier and perhaps make them less anxious to have control over a bigger piece of airspace.
"It may be delightful to fly without the radio, but you just have to accept that you are losing the situational awareness that talking to ATC gives you"
I agree. How about making mode C mandatory for all powered aircraft, too? If all aircraft were to show their position and altitude on radar, ATC's job would be a little easier and perhaps make them less anxious to have control over a bigger piece of airspace.
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Shy Torque
Wasn't it said recently that experience with Mode S goes against that idea?
The more blips that are on the screen the more stressed the ATCOs become, and, in the case of Mode S, they de-selected the option of displaying them to reduce the workload.
My understanding of this was that as they are only concerned with traffic likely to affect their operations, the Open FIR traffic were 'switched off'.
In my view, ATCOs would prefer a larger airspace prohibited to non-IFR traffic. This would have the contrary effect for PFA type and VFR traffic around the edges, flying in smaller and smaller airspace, put at greater risk of collision, but no-one's problem
Wasn't it said recently that experience with Mode S goes against that idea?
The more blips that are on the screen the more stressed the ATCOs become, and, in the case of Mode S, they de-selected the option of displaying them to reduce the workload.
My understanding of this was that as they are only concerned with traffic likely to affect their operations, the Open FIR traffic were 'switched off'.
In my view, ATCOs would prefer a larger airspace prohibited to non-IFR traffic. This would have the contrary effect for PFA type and VFR traffic around the edges, flying in smaller and smaller airspace, put at greater risk of collision, but no-one's problem
Avoid imitations
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F3Gs,
I agree but they have no power supply.
I have been told before that any attempt to make gliders more visible apparently violates their pilots' human rights to be invisible (although they must be given way to by everyone else, of course...!)
Regarding the ATCOs' view; maybe they will advise!
I admit to being rather biased - Mode C for all would make my life a lot less stressful and improve everyone's safety. I operate a TCAS equipped aircraft, usually in Class G. It's much more difficult to plan avoiding action if there is no altitude readout on an alerting TCAS contact, as the azimuth is not reliable.
I agree but they have no power supply.
I have been told before that any attempt to make gliders more visible apparently violates their pilots' human rights to be invisible (although they must be given way to by everyone else, of course...!)
Regarding the ATCOs' view; maybe they will advise!
I admit to being rather biased - Mode C for all would make my life a lot less stressful and improve everyone's safety. I operate a TCAS equipped aircraft, usually in Class G. It's much more difficult to plan avoiding action if there is no altitude readout on an alerting TCAS contact, as the azimuth is not reliable.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 25th Jun 2005 at 17:48.
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What happens on the day when primary radar is unavailable and secondary only is used ?
This appears to be more common these days.
So no transponder = NO radar presence (or TCAS indication)
This appears to be more common these days.
So no transponder = NO radar presence (or TCAS indication)
In the civil world SSR only operations are only allowed inside Controlled Airspace (it being a known traffic environment anyway). Radar equipped airfields with only an ATZ must go non-radar in this situation, hence the requirement for staff to have a valid Approach Procedural rating.
Avoid imitations
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F3Gs
Why not indeed!
Or a few solar panels?
Why not indeed!
Or a few solar panels?
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Shy Torque,
I don't think you have ever heard a Glider pilot (or light GA pilot for that matter) claim violation of their human rights as a reason not to carry a transponder. Practicality and cost = yes. The current cost of a mode 'S' transponder equals the cost of many Vintage gliders and a few single seat powered aircraft. The power drain is not compatible with battery operation.
You provide the box at null cost and we will fit them.
Mike W
I don't think you have ever heard a Glider pilot (or light GA pilot for that matter) claim violation of their human rights as a reason not to carry a transponder. Practicality and cost = yes. The current cost of a mode 'S' transponder equals the cost of many Vintage gliders and a few single seat powered aircraft. The power drain is not compatible with battery operation.
You provide the box at null cost and we will fit them.
Mike W
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Can we please just remember the figures here. GA is by far and away the largest number of aircraft in the skies. GA is by far and away the largest number of movements in the UK. GA is by far and away the largest number of licenced pilots. Now if CAT wants or needs something then they should pay for it. If they need MORE controlled airspace then why not rent it by volume so that GA can be compensated by, for example, less fuel duty (something CAT dont even know exists).
Lets all live in peace and harmony and be helpful to each other, and that means CAT and all associated with it helping as well.
Lets all live in peace and harmony and be helpful to each other, and that means CAT and all associated with it helping as well.
Avoid imitations
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Skylark,
"You provide the box at null cost and we will fit them."
So having bought my own transponder and TCAS you expect me to buy you a transponder because you have a low cost aircraft? Greatly enhanced safety is a no cost option for you? Seriously?
I hope this isn't the commonly heard response of a glider pilot fully expecting other aircraft to "see and avoid" him but being totally unwilling to do anything to contribute to his own aircraft's conspicuity because it might cost him something.
BTW, if you had read my original post on this thread you might have noted that I actually said "powered aircraft".
"You provide the box at null cost and we will fit them."
So having bought my own transponder and TCAS you expect me to buy you a transponder because you have a low cost aircraft? Greatly enhanced safety is a no cost option for you? Seriously?
I hope this isn't the commonly heard response of a glider pilot fully expecting other aircraft to "see and avoid" him but being totally unwilling to do anything to contribute to his own aircraft's conspicuity because it might cost him something.
BTW, if you had read my original post on this thread you might have noted that I actually said "powered aircraft".
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miserlou
surely its the VFR flights that are supposed to maintain their own separation... IFR traffic relies on basic, age-old principles like the quadrantal/semicircular rule, flying at a standard levels and utilising ATC where available.... it's the VFR pilot who has to keep out of the way, and I think it should be by more than a glancing blow
It cannot be safe to route IFR flights through 'G' airspace unless they are able to maintain own seperation
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PA said "it's the VFR pilot who has to keep out of the way"
Where the hell do you get such bright ideas. See and avoid applies to all in any airspace. In class G the difference is there may be no help from radar. Now if you are suggesting that CAT gets priority Pierre, then I think you should return to ATCO (your listing) school.
Where do you work so we can all avoid asking you for a service?
Where the hell do you get such bright ideas. See and avoid applies to all in any airspace. In class G the difference is there may be no help from radar. Now if you are suggesting that CAT gets priority Pierre, then I think you should return to ATCO (your listing) school.
Where do you work so we can all avoid asking you for a service?
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IFR flights are responsible for maintaining seperation from VFR flights
I'm not suggesting anyone has priority... but under the definition I have the VFR pilot is responsible for maintaining separation from all other traffic, whilst (I assume) the IFR pilot needs assistance... from the Rules of the Air... maybe ATC... and from VFR pilots staying out of the white fluffy stuff!
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Sorry - I'm not experienced in this, but are you saying that flying IFR in VMC clear of controlled airspace, that you don't look out of the window?
Secondly, why would you?
Secondly, why would you?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If flying IFR in IMC you of course can't look out of the window for traffic, and must take whatever help ATC can give you to avoid traffic (which may be limited outside of controlled airspace). There is no way of avoiding traffic which doesn't show on radar and isn't talking to anyone.... but if you are in solid IMC, one would hope that any other traffic which is with you in IMC is making use of any tools available to avoid you, too, including talking to ATC (maybe not the same unit as you, though), squawking, flying quadrantals, etc.
However, if flying IFR in VMC, all bets are off - you may well encounter a VFR microlight which does not show up on radar. The pilot will hopefully be looking out, but you'd better be looking out too......
Inside controlled airspace, it seems like it should be a different story. But remember that in Class D airspace IFR flights are not separated from VFR flights. So although ATC will pass you traffic information on VFR flights, they do not have to separate you. (In practice, I don't know of any units who won't separate you from VFR flights, and that includes Class G units when handling inbound and outbound IFR flights - see the other thread about being over-controlled!)
FFF
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However, if flying IFR in VMC, all bets are off - you may well encounter a VFR microlight which does not show up on radar. The pilot will hopefully be looking out, but you'd better be looking out too......
Inside controlled airspace, it seems like it should be a different story. But remember that in Class D airspace IFR flights are not separated from VFR flights. So although ATC will pass you traffic information on VFR flights, they do not have to separate you. (In practice, I don't know of any units who won't separate you from VFR flights, and that includes Class G units when handling inbound and outbound IFR flights - see the other thread about being over-controlled!)
FFF
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