Skirting Around ATZs & MATZs
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Mentioning different classes of airspace makes this sound overly complicated.
The commander of an aircraft has a basic duty to take care of the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. He is expected to use every tool reasonably available to him to live up to that duty.
Regardless of whether he is in class G or class A airspace, that includes keeping a look out in the event that he is in VMC.
It is no more complex than that.
2D
The commander of an aircraft has a basic duty to take care of the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. He is expected to use every tool reasonably available to him to live up to that duty.
Regardless of whether he is in class G or class A airspace, that includes keeping a look out in the event that he is in VMC.
It is no more complex than that.
2D
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Workinghard... I don't think I have ever contradicted the regulations reitterated above by 2D... VFR in Class G is fine (my start point for this thread was another matter else and it has moved off on a tangent)
The matter of IFR flights in VMC is complicated. I accept there may be good reasons why the pilot wants to fly iaw IFR irrespective of flight conditions ... but in Class G (s)he better keep a good look out for someone else who has right of way!
But, when an IFR flight in IMC has a close encounter with a VFR flight that has broken the rules of the air by ignoring flight conditions limits and enters or gets too close to cloud... (and it has happened) you'll excuse me if I seem to be getting excited when others say it's OK because it's Class G Airspace and "see and avoid" applies. They're wrong!!!
Interestingly, a bit of research, reveals a subtle but important difference between CAA and UK Military Flying Regulations on flight rules. Under the latter the VFR military pilot has a categoric responsible for separation from other aircraft... wheras the IFR pilot only has the implied responsibility under general rules for safety of his/her aircraft. The CAA regs don't differentiate... hmmmm?
The matter of IFR flights in VMC is complicated. I accept there may be good reasons why the pilot wants to fly iaw IFR irrespective of flight conditions ... but in Class G (s)he better keep a good look out for someone else who has right of way!
But, when an IFR flight in IMC has a close encounter with a VFR flight that has broken the rules of the air by ignoring flight conditions limits and enters or gets too close to cloud... (and it has happened) you'll excuse me if I seem to be getting excited when others say it's OK because it's Class G Airspace and "see and avoid" applies. They're wrong!!!
Interestingly, a bit of research, reveals a subtle but important difference between CAA and UK Military Flying Regulations on flight rules. Under the latter the VFR military pilot has a categoric responsible for separation from other aircraft... wheras the IFR pilot only has the implied responsibility under general rules for safety of his/her aircraft. The CAA regs don't differentiate... hmmmm?
Last edited by Pierre Argh; 10th Jul 2005 at 08:15.
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Who (apart from gliders) has right of way in class G
Not sure I see your point... seeing as how you challenged me about my qualifications, I'm tempted to ask if you're a pilot? (but that might be seen as petty)
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when an IFR flight in IMC has a close encounter with a VFR flight that has broken the rules of the air by ignoring flight conditions limits and enters or gets too close to cloud...
In the UK in Class G (particularly in the South with class A relatively close to the ground) I have always struggled a little with the VFR/IFR concept. Obviously if you are not in VMC you are flying subject to IFR - But to an outside observer what is different. You probably are too low to be required to observe the quadrantal rule and probably you are cruising above the MSA. You almost certainly don't have an IFR flight plan because you were not going to join an airway (typical of an IMCR flight). But now you can't see and avoid. The controller who thinks you are VMC has IFR traffic that suddenly gets a start when the blip not talking (presumed VMC) gets close to the blip he is talking to and is in solid IMC (see above quote)
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Well Pierre I had an unexpected response. Yes we all know you give way to gliders, balloons etc. but your posts at the very least inferred we should be giving way to IFR which has a radar service. I must have misunderstood what you were trying to say so be a good a chap and explain again please. Oh by the way yes I am a pilot (for several decades and ex mil) and not seen as petty at all.
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The controller who thinks you are VMC has IFR traffic that suddenly gets a start when the blip not talking (presumed VMC) gets close to the blip he is talking to
In most parts of the country, it's possible to receive a radar service which will include a squawk. Even if you are not talking to the same unit as "IFR traffic that suddenly gets a start", the controller working the "IFR traffic that suddenly gets a start" will know who you are talking to from your squawk, and will talk to the controller who you are working to co-ordinate a resolution which suits everyone.
If you really do choose to go around without talking to anyone, or if you are talking to someone who can't give you a squawk (as I often do, since my local unit is primary radar only at the moment), ATC are required to keep any IFR traffic which is receiving a RAS a specified distance from you, and are required to warn traffic about you if the traffic is receiving a RIS. So I can't see how the situation you describe should ever occur.
There are plenty of mechanisms in place to keep IFR traffic as safe as is practically possible, even in Class G airspace, so long as they are available and being used correctly. (I have to admit to not liking flying in IMC outside controlled airspace when these services aren't available, though, but that's yet another tangent that can probably wait for another day.)
2Donks, you said in response to my earlier post:
Mentioning different classes of airspace makes this sound overly complicated.
The commander of an aircraft has a basic duty to take care of the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. He is expected to use every tool reasonably available to him to live up to that duty.
Regardless of whether he is in class G or class A airspace, that includes keeping a look out in the event that he is in VMC.
It is no more complex than that.
The commander of an aircraft has a basic duty to take care of the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. He is expected to use every tool reasonably available to him to live up to that duty.
Regardless of whether he is in class G or class A airspace, that includes keeping a look out in the event that he is in VMC.
It is no more complex than that.
FFF
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FF,
Pierre clearly does experience IFR traffic which is not squawking based on the comment that I quoted. I agree with everything you say about the separation process and that many/most people flying IMC will be getting a radar service. The 'gets a start' comment was really to reflect the concern that you can sometimes hear on the RT from an airways flight (now in G) when it is told about "VFR" traffic when he is solid IMC.
From a personal perspective there have been a few occasions where I am in IMC moving from one radar environment to another and have been dumped with "radar service terminated squawk 7000" and there has been a considerable gap between units that are open and able to provide a service.
The general point that I was making was more about the very small difference between Instrument Rules and Visual Rules as applied in the UK - and to gently address PA's comment about "breaking the rules of air by entering cloud" which is only true if the pilot isn't properly rated - but from his radar screen nothing will tell him the flight is now IFR if the pilot has not moved onto a radar service.
A good case of the fine line between IFR and VFR is the change over that you make as the sun goes down - you retain your "VFR" squawk but you are IFR and less likely to be talking to someone because many of the LARS units close up shop.
Pierre clearly does experience IFR traffic which is not squawking based on the comment that I quoted. I agree with everything you say about the separation process and that many/most people flying IMC will be getting a radar service. The 'gets a start' comment was really to reflect the concern that you can sometimes hear on the RT from an airways flight (now in G) when it is told about "VFR" traffic when he is solid IMC.
From a personal perspective there have been a few occasions where I am in IMC moving from one radar environment to another and have been dumped with "radar service terminated squawk 7000" and there has been a considerable gap between units that are open and able to provide a service.
The general point that I was making was more about the very small difference between Instrument Rules and Visual Rules as applied in the UK - and to gently address PA's comment about "breaking the rules of air by entering cloud" which is only true if the pilot isn't properly rated - but from his radar screen nothing will tell him the flight is now IFR if the pilot has not moved onto a radar service.
A good case of the fine line between IFR and VFR is the change over that you make as the sun goes down - you retain your "VFR" squawk but you are IFR and less likely to be talking to someone because many of the LARS units close up shop.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 11th Jul 2005 at 07:01.
