How much Exp req'd to fly Yak 18T?
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How much Exp req'd to fly Yak 18T?
Folks,
I'm a lowish hours PPL (260 hours) having spent the last six or seven years enjoying all the fun a PA28 can deliver. I'm getting to the point where I feel I need a new flying challenge and fancy buying myself into a more "exotic" aircraft - the Yak 18T in particular takes my fancy.
I'm mainly into touring with the family but may want to learn some basic aeros in the future, so far so good. My question to the more experienced pilots out there is do you think a PPL with 260 hours on spamcans (with the odd bit of Pu/t on a Cub, Tiger Moth, Glider, Seneca and Jet Provost) is going to be able to handle a more complex beast?
I've not flown solo with a wobbly prop or retractable undercarriage - obviously I will look to get appropriate training/conversion on the type - but am I biting off more than I can chew?
I'm up for it, just want to know if you think I'm in cloud cuckoo land???
Any advice/guidance welcomed....
Thanks!
I'm a lowish hours PPL (260 hours) having spent the last six or seven years enjoying all the fun a PA28 can deliver. I'm getting to the point where I feel I need a new flying challenge and fancy buying myself into a more "exotic" aircraft - the Yak 18T in particular takes my fancy.
I'm mainly into touring with the family but may want to learn some basic aeros in the future, so far so good. My question to the more experienced pilots out there is do you think a PPL with 260 hours on spamcans (with the odd bit of Pu/t on a Cub, Tiger Moth, Glider, Seneca and Jet Provost) is going to be able to handle a more complex beast?
I've not flown solo with a wobbly prop or retractable undercarriage - obviously I will look to get appropriate training/conversion on the type - but am I biting off more than I can chew?
I'm up for it, just want to know if you think I'm in cloud cuckoo land???
Any advice/guidance welcomed....
Thanks!
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I really wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Lots of people have soloed Yaks with far less total time than you, including all the Russian air force. You will need to go into it with an open mind and be prepared to learn quite a bit about the aircraft systems, as almost everything works differently from your PA-28. Prop goes the other way, no nosewheel steering, all the systems are pneumatic, etc etc. When I did my conversion on to the 52 I did a day's reading-up and revising on the systems before I got to the aeroplane, and then a half day on the ground with my instructor (Ian Austin, who was then also the chief engineer at Yak UK) with the covers off the aeroplane learning how theory translates into practice.
Once you understand how it works, the actual flying is not that difficult. The 18T like the 52 is a big, tall aeroplane, and you need to remember the height when you are rounding out to land. Expect all the controls to work twice as well as they do on the PA-28, and twice as much climb performance.
The first few hours can seem a bit daunting, and if you have a good instructor (I can definitely recommend Ian, PM me if you want contact info) you will get lots of emergency drills and PFLs, lots of stalling and spinning. But it's mainly about programming your head and hands and feet with the right patterns - and once programmed thay stay programmed. Suddenly the workload drops away as you are doing it all without conscious thought. Within five to ten hours you should have it under your belt.
As a PA-28 man you might want to put in a few hours on an Arrow first to get the wobbly prop / disappearing wheels differences training signed off in your logbook, in an aeroplane that is otherwise fairly familiar. But it's not essential.
Good luck and let me know how it goes! Before you buy into the aeroplane though do make sure you are fully abreast of how many hours it has left on the airframe before something expensive needs doing, as well as the engine and prop. I do not know whether the 18T is subject to the same regime as the 52 but Yaks in the UK in general have had some unamusing hoops to jump through to keep their paperwork in order. The 50 airframe is lifed by the number of aerobatic manoeuvres it has undertaken, whilst the 52 in the UK is currently subject to an intrusive regime of extensive non-destructive testing and wings-off inspection at various (expensive) intervals. The aeroplanes are very strong and robust and if properly maintained and not abused should sail through the actual inspection with little trouble. But the paperwork can still be problematical (see current thread on the Flyer forums). The aeroplanes themselves are fabulous and tough as nails, and I think the 18T will probably delight you.
Once you understand how it works, the actual flying is not that difficult. The 18T like the 52 is a big, tall aeroplane, and you need to remember the height when you are rounding out to land. Expect all the controls to work twice as well as they do on the PA-28, and twice as much climb performance.
The first few hours can seem a bit daunting, and if you have a good instructor (I can definitely recommend Ian, PM me if you want contact info) you will get lots of emergency drills and PFLs, lots of stalling and spinning. But it's mainly about programming your head and hands and feet with the right patterns - and once programmed thay stay programmed. Suddenly the workload drops away as you are doing it all without conscious thought. Within five to ten hours you should have it under your belt.
As a PA-28 man you might want to put in a few hours on an Arrow first to get the wobbly prop / disappearing wheels differences training signed off in your logbook, in an aeroplane that is otherwise fairly familiar. But it's not essential.
Good luck and let me know how it goes! Before you buy into the aeroplane though do make sure you are fully abreast of how many hours it has left on the airframe before something expensive needs doing, as well as the engine and prop. I do not know whether the 18T is subject to the same regime as the 52 but Yaks in the UK in general have had some unamusing hoops to jump through to keep their paperwork in order. The 50 airframe is lifed by the number of aerobatic manoeuvres it has undertaken, whilst the 52 in the UK is currently subject to an intrusive regime of extensive non-destructive testing and wings-off inspection at various (expensive) intervals. The aeroplanes are very strong and robust and if properly maintained and not abused should sail through the actual inspection with little trouble. But the paperwork can still be problematical (see current thread on the Flyer forums). The aeroplanes themselves are fabulous and tough as nails, and I think the 18T will probably delight you.
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Thanks LT for such a useful and comprehensive reply.
From what you say it sounds like the 18T is a right hoot, more than happy of course to put in the differences training as you suggest (that's part of the appeal to be honest) and I'm glad to hear you don't think I'm biting off more than I should at this stage of my flying "career".
I'll check out Yak UK for possible training, although I've a feeling they're a way from my base at White Waltham - that said, given all the Yaks located at WW, I must be able to find someone qualified to take me through the drills.
(any volunteers or contacts from WW anyone????)
Good idea on the difference training first too - I'll certainly look into that. In my couple of hours in the Seneca I did find the whole prop thing a bit of a mystery (not helped by the fact there were two to keep in sync), the wheels bit isn't so much of a worry - bar of course forgetting to get them down!
Thanks again, very helpful.
From what you say it sounds like the 18T is a right hoot, more than happy of course to put in the differences training as you suggest (that's part of the appeal to be honest) and I'm glad to hear you don't think I'm biting off more than I should at this stage of my flying "career".
I'll check out Yak UK for possible training, although I've a feeling they're a way from my base at White Waltham - that said, given all the Yaks located at WW, I must be able to find someone qualified to take me through the drills.
(any volunteers or contacts from WW anyone????)
Good idea on the difference training first too - I'll certainly look into that. In my couple of hours in the Seneca I did find the whole prop thing a bit of a mystery (not helped by the fact there were two to keep in sync), the wheels bit isn't so much of a worry - bar of course forgetting to get them down!
Thanks again, very helpful.
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I think you'll find Ian Austin is probably able to train you from WW. It does need a fairly serious checkout from someone who is both a skilled instructor and genuinely knowledgable on type, competent to deal with the potential unusual attitudes and spin modes, especially if you intend to aerobat it. His company is Globaltec so if you do a Google search you will find him.
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If you are of average aptitude, I don't see why you would have any trouble. It's a tricycle gear, so no challenge there. Learning to use a V/P airscrew and retractable undercarriage shouldn't present any insurmountable difficulties. And the M-14P radial has a good reputation as being essentially 'bulletproof'.
As with all type conversions, the key thing is to receive adequate training from an experienced instructor. If you have to travel out of your way to find such an instructor, do so. You may want to read "You Can Fly Anything", the contents of which I fully endorse.
It sounds like a nice airplane .... enjoy!
As with all type conversions, the key thing is to receive adequate training from an experienced instructor. If you have to travel out of your way to find such an instructor, do so. You may want to read "You Can Fly Anything", the contents of which I fully endorse.
It sounds like a nice airplane .... enjoy!
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LT's advice sounds good to me. I've no 18T experience, but a fair bit of '52 experience.
One thing I'd add is care of that lovely radial engine. You don't just jump in and flick the key, car / PA28 style - this is a real aeroplane and requires a bit of TLC. You'll need to pull it through, and be very aware of the real possibility of hydraulic locks and how to avoid same.
But that requirement of a bit of care is repaid in spades by these wonderful machines. An 18T compared to a PA28 must be like Otis Reading compared to the Black & White minstrels.
Vince
One thing I'd add is care of that lovely radial engine. You don't just jump in and flick the key, car / PA28 style - this is a real aeroplane and requires a bit of TLC. You'll need to pull it through, and be very aware of the real possibility of hydraulic locks and how to avoid same.
But that requirement of a bit of care is repaid in spades by these wonderful machines. An 18T compared to a PA28 must be like Otis Reading compared to the Black & White minstrels.
Vince
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Oscar Kilo
I have a Yak 18T and I'm based at Waltham (HA-YAJ) .... so would be pleased to give you some advice:
* The 18T is a piece of cake to fly. The wing crank makes it much more forgiving than a 52.
* There are no issues in terms of airframe that you have with, say, the 50. Totally different aircraft built for entirely different uses.
* The only paperwork 'hoop' is that you will need to get the aircraft onto the Hungarian register, if it isn't all ready. They used to be on the Russian (RA) or Lithuanian (LY) registers until one of our members inadvertently flew through Heathrow airspace which triggered a CAA enquiry into 18Ts in general. It turned out that the Russians hadn't certified them for international use and the Lithuanians only issued tickets because they were following the Russians' lead. Upshot was they were all grounded in the UK. However, Richard Goode (UK dealer, 01544 340120) worked with the CAA to get the whole matter resolved by getting agreement to switch all 18Ts (if they didn't want to remain grounded) to the HA register where they provide a full public C of A. Hungary is a full JAA member and have carried out their own detailed CofA certification programme. Contrary to some old rumours which still occasionally do the rounds, Richard and the CAA have got the whole issue sorted.
* You can now get both 50 and 100 hour maintenance carried out by Pete Shaw at Russian Engineering, with full Hungarian CAA approval, which is, as you will know, based at Waltham. The Russian engineers there are superb.
* As far as flying the aircraft is concerned, don't worry .... just jump in and you'll soon master it. Yes you will have to watch the engine temperature control (gills) and master the VP and gear, but that's just fun, not pressure.
* Get one with the additional long range tank in the fuselage. This gives you 310 litres in total, enough for four hours plus reserve. It's a fantastic touring aircraft - it can take full fuel, four big adults and luggage. I've been all over Europe, the furthest being Hungary which was achieved with just one stop in Germany while en route.
* Aeros are amazing fun. You will learn so much.
* Coming from a PA28 (as I did at 200 hrs) you will find out what the rudder pedals are all about ... I always thought they were just foot rests! (just a joke ... no 'outraged' PA28 lovers please!)
* Bear in mind that the 18T only has instrumentation, as standard, for VFR. Putting in serious upgrades costs a lot of money if you want ILS, DME, ADF, GPS etc etc. I strongly recommend Lees Avionics at Booker if you want more info on this. (speak to Harry Lees).
* There are a few real dogs around. Don't assume they are all the same. Best to talk to both Yak UK (Mark Jefferies) and Richard Goode for advice.
* Operating costs are £120 per hour wet (which includes £20 per hr into a prop/engine fund), and £60 per hour fixed if you are doing a hundred hours a year or more (we do 150 hrs per annum)
I'm more than happy to meet at the club if you want further advice. Send me a note of your email or mobile and I'll get in contact.
She's a pussycat .... go for it!
I have a Yak 18T and I'm based at Waltham (HA-YAJ) .... so would be pleased to give you some advice:
* The 18T is a piece of cake to fly. The wing crank makes it much more forgiving than a 52.
* There are no issues in terms of airframe that you have with, say, the 50. Totally different aircraft built for entirely different uses.
* The only paperwork 'hoop' is that you will need to get the aircraft onto the Hungarian register, if it isn't all ready. They used to be on the Russian (RA) or Lithuanian (LY) registers until one of our members inadvertently flew through Heathrow airspace which triggered a CAA enquiry into 18Ts in general. It turned out that the Russians hadn't certified them for international use and the Lithuanians only issued tickets because they were following the Russians' lead. Upshot was they were all grounded in the UK. However, Richard Goode (UK dealer, 01544 340120) worked with the CAA to get the whole matter resolved by getting agreement to switch all 18Ts (if they didn't want to remain grounded) to the HA register where they provide a full public C of A. Hungary is a full JAA member and have carried out their own detailed CofA certification programme. Contrary to some old rumours which still occasionally do the rounds, Richard and the CAA have got the whole issue sorted.
* You can now get both 50 and 100 hour maintenance carried out by Pete Shaw at Russian Engineering, with full Hungarian CAA approval, which is, as you will know, based at Waltham. The Russian engineers there are superb.
* As far as flying the aircraft is concerned, don't worry .... just jump in and you'll soon master it. Yes you will have to watch the engine temperature control (gills) and master the VP and gear, but that's just fun, not pressure.
* Get one with the additional long range tank in the fuselage. This gives you 310 litres in total, enough for four hours plus reserve. It's a fantastic touring aircraft - it can take full fuel, four big adults and luggage. I've been all over Europe, the furthest being Hungary which was achieved with just one stop in Germany while en route.
* Aeros are amazing fun. You will learn so much.
* Coming from a PA28 (as I did at 200 hrs) you will find out what the rudder pedals are all about ... I always thought they were just foot rests! (just a joke ... no 'outraged' PA28 lovers please!)
* Bear in mind that the 18T only has instrumentation, as standard, for VFR. Putting in serious upgrades costs a lot of money if you want ILS, DME, ADF, GPS etc etc. I strongly recommend Lees Avionics at Booker if you want more info on this. (speak to Harry Lees).
* There are a few real dogs around. Don't assume they are all the same. Best to talk to both Yak UK (Mark Jefferies) and Richard Goode for advice.
* Operating costs are £120 per hour wet (which includes £20 per hr into a prop/engine fund), and £60 per hour fixed if you are doing a hundred hours a year or more (we do 150 hrs per annum)
I'm more than happy to meet at the club if you want further advice. Send me a note of your email or mobile and I'll get in contact.
She's a pussycat .... go for it!
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Do have a chat with Greg, buy him a few beers, but be careful - it could be expensive!
I met Greg about a year ago, I got him to talk to me about Yaks, what did I do next: I bought my own 18T.
My only regret is not having done it before.
Go on, take the plunge!
I met Greg about a year ago, I got him to talk to me about Yaks, what did I do next: I bought my own 18T.
My only regret is not having done it before.
Go on, take the plunge!
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Just got back from the North Weald Fly-In and there were shares for sale in a YAK-18T on the noticeboard. Call the Squadron on 01992-524510 and they should give you chapter and verse. Better still go tomorrow and see for yourself!
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You'll need to pull it through, and be very aware of the real possibility of hydraulic locks and how to avoid same
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Or read this home.elmore.rr.com/yak52world/downloads/m14p.doc
As the article points out, it may not be you that fails to make sure the oil is clear, a partial lock, a rod bends, the disaster is then a few flying hours away.
As the article points out, it may not be you that fails to make sure the oil is clear, a partial lock, a rod bends, the disaster is then a few flying hours away.
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Phew - thanks again all, great stuff (this is what the web was invented for!).
My only lingering concern is operational cost, not sure if I want to be back at the £100/Hour mark, but I'll make a call on that once I've had a closer look ;-)
Once again, thanks for all the advice, I'll be following it all up....
- Andy.
My only lingering concern is operational cost, not sure if I want to be back at the £100/Hour mark, but I'll make a call on that once I've had a closer look ;-)
Once again, thanks for all the advice, I'll be following it all up....
- Andy.
