Lowering cloud base rising terrain
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"RIS is a service outside controlled airspace Control Zones mean Air Traffic Control Service."
"Yup, he would consider him an even bigger plonker for not being able to read a chart and realise that Limington is not within any zone "
Come on get a grip old chap - RIS is a service outside a control zone and our pilot on the ILS is on the look out for plonkers.
Debates like this can degrade into pedantics and into trying to be clever and spoil the debate. The example I gave as I guess you know full well was intended to be illustrative.
I also said I wouldnt declare a Mayday in the situation you describe so CAP 413 is irrelevant.
I have only heard two Maydays fortunately - neither declared themselves to be instrument rated - I hope I never have to declare a Mayday, but I will try to remember to tell the service agent I am IRed!
Now lets get down to it. You are at 500 feet, rising terrain and IRed. You have been a complete plonker getting yourself into that situation but some how you did. Thats the situation. As it happens you didnt do you your preflight IFR planning and the terrain is pretty unkind. You climb, make a Mayday call, say you are IRed, scare the hell out of one of our commercial friends, report yourself to the CAA afterwards etc. All fine. It would seem we agree that if you are CURRENT that is probably your best option - do we agree? Thats the debate. You might never get yourself into that situation because your planning is perfect (every time) but it happens, it WILL happen to pilots less experienced than you make out to be. There is a very good chance you WILL kill yourself landing in that sort of terrain, there is also a very good chance you will fly into a mast scud running, but I reckon with a CURRENT IR you will survive a climb IMC. Thats the debate.
""UNLESS you have an IMC or instrument rating and a suitably equipted aircraft and are in current practice and expereinced you must remain in sight of the surface. Before encountering lowering cloudbase or visibility make plans to retreat or divert. If conditions get worse eg 1,000 foot cloudbase or visibility less than 3 K carry out these plans immediately".
It is almost a quote but I couldnt cut and paste from the pdf.
Note the wording that would suggest to me you do certain things if you are not instrument rated but there may be other possibilities if you are subject to the caveats.
The whole section is under the title "diversions"."
My quote.
Why do we think the word UNLESS is used and why is there specific reference to IMC or instrument rating?
"Yup, he would consider him an even bigger plonker for not being able to read a chart and realise that Limington is not within any zone "
Come on get a grip old chap - RIS is a service outside a control zone and our pilot on the ILS is on the look out for plonkers.
Debates like this can degrade into pedantics and into trying to be clever and spoil the debate. The example I gave as I guess you know full well was intended to be illustrative.
I also said I wouldnt declare a Mayday in the situation you describe so CAP 413 is irrelevant.
I have only heard two Maydays fortunately - neither declared themselves to be instrument rated - I hope I never have to declare a Mayday, but I will try to remember to tell the service agent I am IRed!
Now lets get down to it. You are at 500 feet, rising terrain and IRed. You have been a complete plonker getting yourself into that situation but some how you did. Thats the situation. As it happens you didnt do you your preflight IFR planning and the terrain is pretty unkind. You climb, make a Mayday call, say you are IRed, scare the hell out of one of our commercial friends, report yourself to the CAA afterwards etc. All fine. It would seem we agree that if you are CURRENT that is probably your best option - do we agree? Thats the debate. You might never get yourself into that situation because your planning is perfect (every time) but it happens, it WILL happen to pilots less experienced than you make out to be. There is a very good chance you WILL kill yourself landing in that sort of terrain, there is also a very good chance you will fly into a mast scud running, but I reckon with a CURRENT IR you will survive a climb IMC. Thats the debate.
""UNLESS you have an IMC or instrument rating and a suitably equipted aircraft and are in current practice and expereinced you must remain in sight of the surface. Before encountering lowering cloudbase or visibility make plans to retreat or divert. If conditions get worse eg 1,000 foot cloudbase or visibility less than 3 K carry out these plans immediately".
It is almost a quote but I couldnt cut and paste from the pdf.
Note the wording that would suggest to me you do certain things if you are not instrument rated but there may be other possibilities if you are subject to the caveats.
The whole section is under the title "diversions"."
My quote.
Why do we think the word UNLESS is used and why is there specific reference to IMC or instrument rating?
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 16th Jun 2005 at 20:05.
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and there I was today bimbling along VFR when I decided that it must be better in the sunshine, I climbed up on top through a couple of thousand feet of cloud and lo and behold my unplanned trip in IMC did not end in a mayday or crash into the side of a hill.
Boy I am feeling lucky, now for a lottery ticket.......
Boy I am feeling lucky, now for a lottery ticket.......
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Don't be a pedant Bose, you weren't forced to climb.
I don't know where you quote from but I'd like to suggest that the 'unless' is there because if you have an IMC rating you should find it easier to keep the aircraft the right way up and may drop the safety margins.
I'd be interested to know why there are instrument qualified pilots in the accident statistics at all, except, perhaps for the more obvious causes.
Also, I'm not keen on seeing the word 'current' in these posts. It is a condition which negates what you write if exclude it and it is not included in the accident statistics.
Finally, I'd like to draw attention to the difference between 'scud-running' and 'low level navigation'.
There may not actually be a difference but there is when I use them.
Scud-running is where you fly as high as the clouds will allow and where they allow you to do so when you would rather be flying considerably higher.
Low level cross country is just that and doesn't depend on the cloud base or visibilty. It is also an art which allows scud-running to be performed in considerably more safety than usually implied by the use of the term.
The flights which Bookworm and Fuji describe are flights which could easily have been planned low level.
Incidentally, the first time I turned away from lowering cloud and rising terrain was on my first attempt at my qualifying cross country.
I don't know where you quote from but I'd like to suggest that the 'unless' is there because if you have an IMC rating you should find it easier to keep the aircraft the right way up and may drop the safety margins.
I'd be interested to know why there are instrument qualified pilots in the accident statistics at all, except, perhaps for the more obvious causes.
Also, I'm not keen on seeing the word 'current' in these posts. It is a condition which negates what you write if exclude it and it is not included in the accident statistics.
Finally, I'd like to draw attention to the difference between 'scud-running' and 'low level navigation'.
There may not actually be a difference but there is when I use them.
Scud-running is where you fly as high as the clouds will allow and where they allow you to do so when you would rather be flying considerably higher.
Low level cross country is just that and doesn't depend on the cloud base or visibilty. It is also an art which allows scud-running to be performed in considerably more safety than usually implied by the use of the term.
The flights which Bookworm and Fuji describe are flights which could easily have been planned low level.
Incidentally, the first time I turned away from lowering cloud and rising terrain was on my first attempt at my qualifying cross country.
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"The flights which Bookworm and Fuji describe are flights which could easily have been planned low level."
Agreed but there comes a point when your low level skills are less good than your IR skills, or your low level options run out.
"Also, I'm not keen on seeing the word 'current' in these posts. It is a condition which negates what you write if exclude it and it is not included in the accident statistics."
I think we are using the word current because we acknowledge IR skills degrade quickly with lack of currency, but in the same way the option to make a PL is only likely to be as successful as your PFL skills - which realistically many peolpe are aslo not current with.
Agreed but there comes a point when your low level skills are less good than your IR skills, or your low level options run out.
"Also, I'm not keen on seeing the word 'current' in these posts. It is a condition which negates what you write if exclude it and it is not included in the accident statistics."
I think we are using the word current because we acknowledge IR skills degrade quickly with lack of currency, but in the same way the option to make a PL is only likely to be as successful as your PFL skills - which realistically many peolpe are aslo not current with.
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I am slightly struggling with this concept of pop up IFR traffic causing a commercial to break off an approach, and it is worrying me, particularly as I am happy to be a prat but only if I know why.
Presumably our VFR traffic has got himself into the zone undetected below the base and presumably below radar cover or the approach controller is having a tea break. Then presumably he suddenly declares he is going IFR, gives a false position (because he is lost) and climbs through say a 1,000 foot base to conflict with the localiser.
That is just about the only scenario I can think of and just doesn’t sound very credible.
VFR traffic straying into a zone because the pilot is lost resulting in a loss a separation with break offs I can understand - unfortunately they happen. Lost Ired pilots creeping undetected under the base and popping up IFR without a clearance I am struggling with.
CAP 413 note 1 is also worth a read - there is no ICAO requirement to declare your ratings and the suggestion to do so is coupled with passing ANY information that might be useful to the controller to assist. I suspect if I was IR rated it would not be high on my priorities. I would be far more concerned to say I was NOT IRed.
Presumably our VFR traffic has got himself into the zone undetected below the base and presumably below radar cover or the approach controller is having a tea break. Then presumably he suddenly declares he is going IFR, gives a false position (because he is lost) and climbs through say a 1,000 foot base to conflict with the localiser.
That is just about the only scenario I can think of and just doesn’t sound very credible.
VFR traffic straying into a zone because the pilot is lost resulting in a loss a separation with break offs I can understand - unfortunately they happen. Lost Ired pilots creeping undetected under the base and popping up IFR without a clearance I am struggling with.
CAP 413 note 1 is also worth a read - there is no ICAO requirement to declare your ratings and the suggestion to do so is coupled with passing ANY information that might be useful to the controller to assist. I suspect if I was IR rated it would not be high on my priorities. I would be far more concerned to say I was NOT IRed.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 16th Jun 2005 at 21:35.
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I know how you feel, Bose.
Fuji,
I only object to 'current' because it's being used against a statement which makes no such assumption.
The only difference between a precautionary landing and the one carried out at the end of every flight is that one must select a suitable field and having made the decision to land one can argue that you are excused rule 5.
You can get courses in low flying, by the way, including minimalist navigation. Strangely, there is no formal qualification.
Fuji,
I only object to 'current' because it's being used against a statement which makes no such assumption.
The only difference between a precautionary landing and the one carried out at the end of every flight is that one must select a suitable field and having made the decision to land one can argue that you are excused rule 5.
You can get courses in low flying, by the way, including minimalist navigation. Strangely, there is no formal qualification.
As an aside, whilst not (so far as I'm aware) formally part of the various "Group A" syllabi, low flying and low-level navigation (at ~500ft) are part of the microlight syllabus. This makes reasonable sense to anybody who has done any microlight X-country flying, since you often fly slow enough to have a reasonable chance to rethink and replan, or turn around in very little airspace - but that same lack of speed tends to dictate nigh-on direct routing each time.
Which is a longwinded way of saying, if you want to learn about (civil) low-level cross country flying, the most cost-effective place to go might be your local microlight school. (Exercise 16, forced landings with and without power, operation at minimum level.)
G
Which is a longwinded way of saying, if you want to learn about (civil) low-level cross country flying, the most cost-effective place to go might be your local microlight school. (Exercise 16, forced landings with and without power, operation at minimum level.)
G
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Low level navigation was also included in another EU country's CPL syllabus.
I was asked, on my test, to descend to 500'agl and after circumnavigating a town asked to fly to a non-planned grass airfield and land there.
As soon as you turn on course he asks for a distance and an ETA.
Great fun!
I was asked, on my test, to descend to 500'agl and after circumnavigating a town asked to fly to a non-planned grass airfield and land there.
As soon as you turn on course he asks for a distance and an ETA.
Great fun!
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Just out of interest, when you guys (who do) transition from VFR into IMC and then decide to "continue IFR", do you get on the horn and file IFR airborne ? Or do you just announce the fact that you are IFR to the next LARS you talk to ?
I'm interested because I must admit, I'm totally with the "I don't mind making the VMC-IMC jump" crowd ...
FF
I'm interested because I must admit, I'm totally with the "I don't mind making the VMC-IMC jump" crowd ...
FF
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FF - I would request something along the following lines G-XXXX 1,500, 1016, overhead mike, india, delta, would like to climb 2,400, IFR and IMC, routing direct charlie, papa, tango, request a radar information service. Ideally if I hadnt got the RIS I would like it before going IMC.
Of course the call would vary depending on whether a RIS was available and do doubt thats another whole can of worms!!
Thats sticking my head above to be shot down by someone
Of course the call would vary depending on whether a RIS was available and do doubt thats another whole can of worms!!
Thats sticking my head above to be shot down by someone
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FF
As FA says, it's straightforward (in the UK), in Class G:
a) If NOT in radio contact, you can change VFR/IFR anytime. It's no more than your state of mind! Hey, here comes a cloud, now we are IFR. And .... now we are VFR again!
b) If IN radio contact, what one does on the changeover depends on how much interest the ATCO is showing in you:
If on a non-radar service (e.g. London Info), you can do a) above. They haven't got a clue where you are anyway, and where any conflicting traffic might be. They might be interested when you reach the next reporting point.
If on a radar service and getting an FIS (RIS not available due to workload etc) I would usually tell them; say "G-ABCD entering IMC, changing to IFR". They reply Roger G-ABCD.
If on a radar service and getting an RIS, I would definitely tell them, but the outcome is the same, except you won't be offered reports of traffic 10 miles away
. If the traffic gets close, you can ask for an upgrade to an RAS (i.e. ask for vectors to avoid this one). In class G, they cannot control what rules you choose to fly under.
In controlled airspace (which in England is Class D+) it's different, because you need a clearance and the clearance specifies VFR or IFR, and on a VFR clearance you must maintain VMC. If unable to maintain VMC then one has to request a change to IFR, or a change in level ("to maintain VMC"), but usually you get it (what else could they do, in reality??).
Outside the UK, one needs a full IR to do any IFR flight. In reality of course lots of non-IR pilots pop in and out of cloud, especially given that most countries (UK being one exception) permit a basic PPL to fly VMC on top. It's a problem only if one hits something, which almost never happens when en-route. What one must avoid is doing something that will make one stick out like a sore thumb, which is to do an IFR arrival or departure. And a lot of airfields have strict minima for VFR departures; e.g. Biarritz is 1200ft min cloudbase. So it's easy to be stuck there for days. Which is why the stampede to the FAA IR (and N-reg) - for pre-planned European touring it's essential.
So, while the UK has the awful airspace structure with Class A down to 2500ft in places, it has great freedom for messing about outside of it. I am not sure which I would prefer.
As FA says, it's straightforward (in the UK), in Class G:
a) If NOT in radio contact, you can change VFR/IFR anytime. It's no more than your state of mind! Hey, here comes a cloud, now we are IFR. And .... now we are VFR again!
b) If IN radio contact, what one does on the changeover depends on how much interest the ATCO is showing in you:
If on a non-radar service (e.g. London Info), you can do a) above. They haven't got a clue where you are anyway, and where any conflicting traffic might be. They might be interested when you reach the next reporting point.
If on a radar service and getting an FIS (RIS not available due to workload etc) I would usually tell them; say "G-ABCD entering IMC, changing to IFR". They reply Roger G-ABCD.
If on a radar service and getting an RIS, I would definitely tell them, but the outcome is the same, except you won't be offered reports of traffic 10 miles away
. If the traffic gets close, you can ask for an upgrade to an RAS (i.e. ask for vectors to avoid this one). In class G, they cannot control what rules you choose to fly under.In controlled airspace (which in England is Class D+) it's different, because you need a clearance and the clearance specifies VFR or IFR, and on a VFR clearance you must maintain VMC. If unable to maintain VMC then one has to request a change to IFR, or a change in level ("to maintain VMC"), but usually you get it (what else could they do, in reality??).
Outside the UK, one needs a full IR to do any IFR flight. In reality of course lots of non-IR pilots pop in and out of cloud, especially given that most countries (UK being one exception) permit a basic PPL to fly VMC on top. It's a problem only if one hits something, which almost never happens when en-route. What one must avoid is doing something that will make one stick out like a sore thumb, which is to do an IFR arrival or departure. And a lot of airfields have strict minima for VFR departures; e.g. Biarritz is 1200ft min cloudbase. So it's easy to be stuck there for days. Which is why the stampede to the FAA IR (and N-reg) - for pre-planned European touring it's essential.
So, while the UK has the awful airspace structure with Class A down to 2500ft in places, it has great freedom for messing about outside of it. I am not sure which I would prefer.
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Fuji Abound,
You need to be on more than instruments to fly under a control zone!
---------
IO540,
Hey, here comes a cloud, now we are IFR. And .... now we are VFR again
Only legal if you are crusing at the appropriate level for IFR i.e. if you are flying on a track of say 280 at 3500ft, that bit in cloud would be illegal it would also be illegal at 4000ft and 4500ft QNH
Regards,
DFC
You need to be on more than instruments to fly under a control zone!
---------
IO540,
Hey, here comes a cloud, now we are IFR. And .... now we are VFR again
Only legal if you are crusing at the appropriate level for IFR i.e. if you are flying on a track of say 280 at 3500ft, that bit in cloud would be illegal it would also be illegal at 4000ft and 4500ft QNH
Regards,
DFC
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"You need to be on more than instruments to fly under a control zone!"
- and your point is??
"Thats the debate. You might never get yourself into that situation because your planning is perfect (every time) but it happens, it WILL happen to pilots less experienced than you make out to be. There is a very good chance you WILL kill yourself landing in that sort of terrain, there is also a very good chance you will fly into a mast scud running, but I reckon with a CURRENT IR you will survive a climb IMC. Thats the debate."
- DFC, you have been pretty opposed to some of the comments here, but thats the challenge above. It would be interesting to narrow the debate and comment on the actual situation.
- and your point is??
"Thats the debate. You might never get yourself into that situation because your planning is perfect (every time) but it happens, it WILL happen to pilots less experienced than you make out to be. There is a very good chance you WILL kill yourself landing in that sort of terrain, there is also a very good chance you will fly into a mast scud running, but I reckon with a CURRENT IR you will survive a climb IMC. Thats the debate."
- DFC, you have been pretty opposed to some of the comments here, but thats the challenge above. It would be interesting to narrow the debate and comment on the actual situation.
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I'm baffled that this post is still going on.....
As I said before, if you are an instrument rated pilot (IR/IMC) and current, then you should be able to handle a transition from VMC to IMC. If not then the CAA should take your qualifications away. You should also be able to adapt and asses the situation and plan accordingly, if not then maybe there is no place for that person in the skies.
I would guess that making a percautionary landing in unknown terrain, in poor weather, in a perfectly servicable aircraft, kitted for the job, by a current IR/IMC'd pilot is a really stupid thing to do, and probably runs a high risk of either killing someone, or damaging property or the aircraft. If, on the other hand you can handle it, then obviously the safest method is to climb into imc, not look out of the window, try and get a RIS, and divert to plan B.
A current instrument pilot who cannot adapt as in plan B should probably not be in the skies......and especially not be flying commercially.
Ta ta
As I said before, if you are an instrument rated pilot (IR/IMC) and current, then you should be able to handle a transition from VMC to IMC. If not then the CAA should take your qualifications away. You should also be able to adapt and asses the situation and plan accordingly, if not then maybe there is no place for that person in the skies.
I would guess that making a percautionary landing in unknown terrain, in poor weather, in a perfectly servicable aircraft, kitted for the job, by a current IR/IMC'd pilot is a really stupid thing to do, and probably runs a high risk of either killing someone, or damaging property or the aircraft. If, on the other hand you can handle it, then obviously the safest method is to climb into imc, not look out of the window, try and get a RIS, and divert to plan B.
A current instrument pilot who cannot adapt as in plan B should probably not be in the skies......and especially not be flying commercially.
Ta ta
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While my engine is still running I will be attempting to land at an airfield.
The idea of precautionary landings on random bits of countryside is some fantasy from the 20's for modern GA aircraft.
Get real guys...either turn away from cloud or climb above and get somewhere where you can come down safely,
-- Andrew
The idea of precautionary landings on random bits of countryside is some fantasy from the 20's for modern GA aircraft.
Get real guys...either turn away from cloud or climb above and get somewhere where you can come down safely,
-- Andrew
