Lowering cloud base rising terrain

[justsomepilot]

jb5000

There will be very few cases where you can do what is called a "precautionary landing" (forced down by weather or lack of fuel) in a field and then take off again on your own.

Such a landing is normally going to be a major hassle. Some fields one can take off from (need to establish the distance, check for potholes etc) but the recovery will usually be done by someone competent; not a fresh PPL.

Most of the cases that do happen (I am talking about Cessna/Piper spamcans, not microlights) need the wings taken off and the thing carted back on a trailer; the cost is a few grand and the aircraft owner will really love you for having done that... especially as few maintenance shops know how to correctly rig an aircraft so it probably won't fly the same way again.

With helicopters it's easy of course

Far better to make an early decision and land somewhere proper. Any passengers may not be happy about that of course (might have to make complicated urgent arrangements for babysitting etc) and it could be a huge hassle and many won't fly with you again, but that's what flying without an IFR option is like! You've got to stick to nice days and short trips.

[david viewing]

What's not being said here is to Slow Down! Most people seem to bat along at 100kts whatever the conditions.

A spamcan will turn on a much tighter radius at 70Kts than 100Kts, one of the first things they teach you on a mountain flying course. Obviously you will have more time to sort things out and believe it or not the duration and probably the range will actually increase.

In my one experience (so far) of this situation the diversionary airport which we had passed overhead only moments previously proved difficult to re-locate for landing because of the deteriorating weather and the handling pilot staying at cruise speed.

[foxmoth]

Most of the cases that do happen (I am talking about Cessna/Piper spamcans, not microlights) need the wings taken off and the thing carted back on a trailer;

I would tend to disagree here, if you have found a suitable field you will hopefully have picked one that is long enough to land in with room to spare and good approaches, most fields like this should not then be a big problem for take off - though of course you should check this before doing so. As far as DVs point about slowing down goes, this should not really need pointing out as it is taught and pointed out in the PPL syllabus during both the bad wx circuit phase and the low flying exercise (though I would agree that it is probably not the most practiced part of the syllabus).

[whowhenwhy]

Hi guys, don't usually post in here, but this thread caught my attention. How come no-one has suggested declaring a PAN and calling London Centre on 121.5MHz? While you may not be IFR rated, if you are in trouble you might find that they can lend a hand. Just an idea!

[bar shaker]

Here's my story of flying into bad weather.

On the day in question, I was a very low hours pilot with a microlight. A very experienced microlighting mate had dropped his aircraft over at Enstone for a throttle cable warranty job and I had said I would fly him over to collect it.

I'd arranged to collect him from Sarfend, where he is normally hangared.

The sky was a beautiful blue, but there was low lying mist. As I DI my aircraft, I got two telephone calls. The first was from a friend who was on his from Essex to Wales, to collect his rally car after a service. He was on the M4. The TAFs to the west had forecast CBs, which I had expected to fly around. He was calling as he knew I was flying that way and he could not believe how torential the rain was. The second call was from my pax, who was waiting at Delta, who told me how beautiful Sarfend was that morning.

Tyres all kicked, I took off. I couldn't see a bloody thing and flew a circuit back in.

I called my pax and said I would have a smoke and let the mist burn off. 45 minutes later I was airbourne. I flew to Southend at 800ft as there was cloud above that and mist below it. Although only 10 miles, I had put Southend in the GPS and doubt I would have found it if I had not been following Mr Garmin's line. The first I saw of Southend was the perimeter fence, at which point ATC saw me and said to come straight in, clearing me in the process.

I told my friend that it was not flying weather and we should hang around for an hour and let the mist burn off. This we did and then we set off for Enstone, with blue skies above us.

The mist had now gone but the cloud had got thicker. It had been 1500ft at Southend, but by the time we approached The Triangle of Death, it was down to 800ft. I wasn't happy, but I chugged on, as my much more experienced friend wasn't saying anything about the weather.

As we neared the extended centreline for Stapleford, my mate asked "Are you happy flying in this?"

Saying nothing, I did a 180.

I got myself in trouble by thinking my experienced mate would say something first. He sat there thinking I had balls of steel and the navigation skills of a flying god.

We were above terrain and visual with it, but since then I never fly into poor viz. I've done 200 hours since then and it still scares me.

[bladewashout]

I'm with the 121.5 Pan. First time I called it I was lost through a mistake in reading my flight plan compounded by strong, unexpected winds. The guy was brilliant, spoke clearly, led me by the hand until I was happy with my situation, offered a radar information service, vectors to where I wanted to go, confirmed my QNH & height and gave constant updates of my precise position to make sure I knew where I was and where I was going. I had his undivided attention for a good 5 minutes.

My only regret was that I didn't call them sooner, as soon as I had any doubt about my location. Instead I stumbled around for a good few minutes, which was daft.

Having called once, I'd have no hesitation calling if weather started looking tricky and I had safety worries. I have no doubt that if you call them you won't regret it, but best called early rather than late. Great if you're fixed wing - they would be less useful in rotary as once you're in cloud as a non-IR PPL(H), the instability and lack of experience means your life expectancy is probably a small number of minutes (1?). I'm frankly too scared to go anywhere near them.

BW

[DFC]

I just love all the assumptions that people with IRs or IMC ratings will be any better off should the weather descend on a VFR flight.

One of the biggest killers in aviation is VFR flight continued into IMC.

I'll say that again.

One of the biggest killers in aviation is VFR flight continued into IMC.

Did I mention pilot qualifications - No

Did I mention aircraft equipment - No

Repeat after me -

One of the biggest killers in aviation is VFR flight continued into IMC.

Check out the stats. - Many of the aircraft dug into hill sides were well equipped aircraft flown by current experienced IR holders!!!

Basic training impresses us that planning is not simply good Airmanship, it is essential.

Unless one has planned for an IMC flight - do not think that entering IMC will save you because it will probably kill you even if you are an IR holder - check the stats.

If a VFR flight pulls up into IMC, they have lost everything except the posibility of keeping the aircraft right way up for some time.

Ask yourself;

Do you cancel VFR flights if the freezing level is low? - No? but what if you enter IMC can you fly a lump of ice on instruments?

Do you carry IFR charts on VFR flights? - No? but even with an IR or IMC the flight becomes illegal on entering cloud because you do not have the appropriate charts to get to a safe destination for sure. Never mind illegal, think practicalities - how do you naviagte to suitable approach minima!

Do you plan the flight as an IFR flight with appropriate navigation aids and check the IFR notams when completing a VFR flight?

Lots of things to think about.

But I can tell you that in the simulator, 75% of IMC holders in current practice kill themselves going from VFR to IFR flight cause the weather gets bad - why? - more than 1/2 of them forgot to turn on the pitot and lost control after the pressure head iced over during the climb.

Yea call 121.50..........but make it a mayday cause there is a good chance that if you continue VFR into IMC you will not survive.

Better to take your chances with a precautionary landing.

Regards,

DFC

[bar shaker]

DFC I agree with you.

I am not IMC rated and have no intention of ever being so. I spent a couple of hours RHS for a flight to Paris, years ago, the whole lot was in cloud. It wasn't fun and I wish I had spent the time in my local pub. IMC is fine if you need to get there, I fly for the fun and for the thrill of it.

If, during my troubled flight, I had flown on, to the point that I had to either put into somehwere I couldn't see or climb above the cloud, I am not sure what I would have chosen. I hope I would have put down whilst I still had the option of determining somewhere suitable. I was over flat terrain, so the ground was not rushing up to meet me. The SE is, however, notorious for its wires. The other option of going up, may have given me more time, but I would have been met with 100+ mile viz, all of it of cloud. Knowing that the cloud was down to the deck, I would have been biding time until I ran out of fuel and then I would have died.

Calling 121.5 in such a situation could only set up the 999 services, to hopefully pull you out of the wreckage more quickly.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

If you were in a valley, I doubt you would get hold of 121.5.

[tonyhalsall]

PPRuNe
posted 31st May 2005 11:14
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Lowering cloud base rising terrain
Whats best way to get out of this? Probably best to put down in a field but assume a lot of pilots would want to "fly" their way out of it. Any opinions? VFR of course!
__________________________________________________

Spring 2003 and I planned a long days flying out to North Wales and around Caenarfon and North Wales.

The leg out was perfect and though the forecast was for deteriorating weather in the mid - late afternoon it was still morning and Caenarfon had CAVOK and a SW'ly breeze.
Refuelled and a great sausage and egg toastie I set off for what I hoped (sic) would be the most interesting part of the trip - the jolly around and over Snowdonia. I was a bit upset to see the clear blue sky of only half an hour ago had now become a high grey sheet of stratus, but the top of Snowdon was still visible so I thought it would be OK.
Anyway, to cut a long story short I ended up near over Betswy Co-ed (something like that) and followed some low ground up a valley back towards Snowdonia - as the valley turned to the right I was met with valley and cloud ahead and only valley to the side - exactly as the first poster described.
I remembered reading an article in the Shadow Owners Club Newsletter describing an almost stall turn like manoevre to extricate oneself from such a situation but of course it was nothing I had ever considered before let alone practised. Looking down and to the sides and it was clear that a forced landing was going to hurt and destroy the aircraft - so I guessed I had nothing to lose but to try the manoevre.
I descended to a point I guessed to be mid way between the ground and the cloud pulled back on the stick until about 45 knots and pressed firmly on the right rudder. Incredibly and without any fuss, drama or stress the aircraft gained about 100' in height and then turned 180 degrees on its own axis and pointed back down the valley from where I had come at exactly the same height as when I started.
I was staggered at the simplicity and ease of the manoevre and how well behaved the whole procedure was.
It was only when I got home and I thought about it later, relived the scene over and over again that I realised just how fortunate I had been. Then again the irony 12 months later when the entire fleet of Shadows was grounded on spurious safety grounds - it had certainly saved my bacon.
Anyway, apologies for not referring to IMC, VMC, IR, VFR or anything like that - it was a day out jolly flight in a basic equipped Shadow microlight and I VERY fortunately managed to extricate myself from quite a nasty predicament. I wouldn't want to do it again though.

[tmmorris]

DFC,

Do you carry IFR charts on VFR flights? - No? but even with an IR or IMC the flight becomes illegal on entering cloud because you do not have the appropriate charts to get to a safe destination for sure. Never mind illegal, think practicalities - how do you naviagte to suitable approach minima!

Yes, I always have the relevant AIDU FLIPs with IAPs; yes, I always plan my VFR flights with MSA for each leg; I always carry a half-mil chart which has MEF figures for each square; most of my VFR routes use VORs as waypoints when they can; I always have a GPS switched on and the route programmed in; and I'm always outside CAS, and 90% of the time talking to someone who can provide a radar service.

So if I need to go IFR, it's no big drama: climb to MSA; tell the controller I'm now in IMC and need a RIS/RAS; sort out the routing (divert if necessary); get out the approach chart; and get on with it. Again, 95% of the time I re-enter VMC before the approach anyway so make a visual approach. Really not that much of a big deal, as long as you prepared the VFR flight properly.

Of course, if your VFR flight wasn't prepared, you relied on GPS for navigation, you didn't work out MSA, you left the charts at home, and you didn't use your radio at all, you'd be in more trouble; but you'd deserve to be, frankly.

Tim

[IO540]

DFC please stop acting like the Pope.

You say: I just love all the assumptions that people with IRs or IMC ratings will be any better off should the weather descend on a VFR flight.

Well OBVIOUSLY one would not continue the flight under VFR would one??

People hit terrain because they are too low in relation to the terrain. This may sound obvious but let me repeat it as it is quite important: people hit terrain because they are too low in relation to the terrain.

Subject to the 0C level being above the MSA, one would climb to/above the MSA and continue the flight under IFR. This may involve a change of destination. But it's a lot safer than slowing to 70kt and wallowing between hills under a lowering cloudbase, and hoping that 121.50 will work down between those hills (the coverage isn't specified below something like 2000ft over most of the UK - don't recall where but there is a CAA doc describing it).

And yes this does mean that one cannot embark on a VFR flight if the 0C level is below the MSA, unless the weather is practically guaranteed to be VMC al the way.

All the other IFR stuff applies too: a suitable aircraft, adequate currency, carrying the approach plates for every likely destination, etc.

I have no intention of taking the mick here but if someone writes

"Tyres all kicked, I took off. I couldn't see a bloody thing and flew a circuit back in."

then I think any talk of an IFR option is going to be rather wasted. Someone getting into that ought to learn basic weather checks before flying.

[bar shaker]

IO

Let me explain, before you portray me as worse than I was on the day.

From the ground, I could see for miles. Above me, all I could see was blue sky.

Between 300ft and 750ft was a layer of thin fog. In it, I could see the ground for about a mile/mile and a half ahead. Above the layer, I could see for 20 miles but could see less ground. EGMC's TAF was 6000.

When I say I couldn't see a bloody thing, I didn't mean I was in IMC, what I meant was I was in VFR but at much less than I was happy with.

I posted a frank report of a mistake I made and discussed the factors that led me to make the mistake.

If you feel I need ridiculing for it, then I look forward to meeting you, face to face. In fact you have made me so angry that I eagerly look forward to it.

Maybe my tale will help someone else less full of themselves from making the same mistake.

[tonyhalsall]

Bar Shaker,
It was a good story and it was thought provoking and all but the most anal of readers would have taken on board the essence of what you said.
Unfortunately most flying bulletin boards are frequented by people who impose their holier than though attitude at the first opportunity - it is one reason I have stopped posting on anything other than things which are really close to my heart.
Don't worry about the poster who ridiculed a part of your post by taking it completely out of context, the vast majority of readers know exactly what you mean't.
Read back through this entire thread and look how many posts referred to the original thread and how many were crtiticisms of other peoples comments.
Chin up - Here's hoping your next flying day is blessed with fluffy cumulus and gentle zephyrs. Keep The Faith, Keep flying whilst others just talk about it!!
Tony :-)

[Flyin'Dutch']

DFC,

You are talking rubbish.

There is no evidence that those that crash in CFIT accidents are IMC or IR holders.

[IO540]

BS

Unfortunately this is the internet, not a table in a pub, so if you write XYZ you must expect somebody to read XYZ. I also did say I didn't intend to take the micky.

You wrote that you couldn't see a bloody thing; that doesn't sound like VFR to me. VFR is anything over 3000m vis, or 1500m if you have an IMCR or an IR.

[Kolibear]

Oh come IO, you know as well anyone else that what people write on here isn't necessarily what they mean, bs was just indulging in shorthand and exaggeration.

Flippancy does not translate well into the written word, I know this too well having been told off on more than occasion for what have appeared to be light hearted comment on serious subjects.

bs said that 'he kicked the tyres', meaning 'I did all my pre-flight checks'. Now I think thats a fairly large clue as to the mood of his post. And most of us have been flying VFR in weather when we couldn't 'see a bloody thing' - under clear blue skies but looking into the sun maybe.

Tyres all kicked, I took off. I couldn't see a bloody thing and flew a circuit back in."

sounds like a succinct description of a typical winter flight, where the weather looks 50/50.

[bar shaker]

IO

Thinking about it, I should have guessed someone would read something into it.

Tony and KB, I'm glad you got the gist of it

The thing is that this happened 150 hours ago, albeit only 14 months ago and since I have missed out on some good flying as I am always paranoid of getting in the same situation and finding I don't have the option of a 180 back to better weather. I know that erring on the side of caution is never a bad thing, but feel I am often being too conservative.

The human factors associated with flying with a much more experienced pilot have probably contributed to other wrong decisions or even lack of decisions, over the years.

[IO540]

This does happen to me too. Whenever I have an instructor with me, I mess up everything. On the rare occassions I get a chance to fly with someone who has more experience than me on the (not very common) type I fly, I mess up then also.

[DFC]

tmmoris,

I think what you are saying is that you as an IMC or IR holder plan every flight as an IFR flight, you always fly above the IFR MSA and if you can complete the flight in VMC and under VFR then that is great, if you have to fly IFR and in IMC, you have planned for and are prepared for that. That would not come into the category of VFR flight continued into IMC because you are effectively operating to the IFR rules at all times.


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IO540,

People hit terrain because they are too low in relation to the terrain. This may sound obvious but let me repeat it as it is quite important: people hit terrain because they are too low in relation to the terrain.

Many VFR into IMC flights hit terrain because the pilot looses control of the aircraft above the MSA and hits the ground while still in IMC or very quickly after exiting IMC (in 1 or more bits).

The increase in workload having pulled up into IMC can be very distracting and can reduce the average part time amateur instrument pilot's ability to keep the aircraft flying especially if they can't break out on top within 3000ft of entering IMC.

In many cases however, the pilot does not pull up, they accidentally enter IMC and then know that they are too low to descend so thay have to climb. This can often happen when the aircraft is in a slight climbing turn.......the worst way to go IMC unexpectidely and the best way to give oneself the leans!

Of course, the question that no one has asked yet is........going down that valley, can the aircraft out climb the terrain or will it hit the unmarked 299ft mast on the ridge?

Regards,

DFC

[RatherBeFlying]

First of all, do not be going up any valley you can't turn around in.

In a C-172, my mimimum altitude is 700' AGL.

I had to do an 180 on the AH when I suddenly discovered that a cloud base may slope

The IFR rating and flat terrain added confidence, but I prefer to avoid any such surprises