PPL advice please!
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PPL advice please!
Hi folks.
I live in the Heathrow area and am trying to find a decent but cheap flying school to do my JAR PPL. I can't afford to do it all in one go but should be able to squeeze in a lesson or two every couple of weeks. Can anyone recommend where to go? Any other tips and advice would be very much appreciated.
I live in the Heathrow area and am trying to find a decent but cheap flying school to do my JAR PPL. I can't afford to do it all in one go but should be able to squeeze in a lesson or two every couple of weeks. Can anyone recommend where to go? Any other tips and advice would be very much appreciated.
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Thanks for the advice. How much would you suggest is a reasonable price to pay for tuition. I'm not bothered which aircraft I learn in as I don't know enough about them yet. Any recommendations would be helpful tho!
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A ball park figure is between 6 and 8k, this depends on the type of aircraft, quality of school, airfield etc. Have you considered the US option, much cheaper! There is plenty of information dotted around this site. Type Florida in the search box and you'll have a lifetime's reading.
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Chewy,
Although not from your area and therefore not able to advise on a specific school, I would suggest the following.
Cheap does not always mean poor instruction, likewise expensive does not guarantee good instruction. In comparing costs you need to get all of your comparable schools to one baseline.
Aircraft time can be charged as either on the Hobbs meter (which is operated and therefore starts running the moment the negine does) or brakes off to brakes on (therefore you are not paying for the considerable time it may take you as a learner to complete the after start checks etc.
Likewise, some clubs quote prices without VAT, others require considerable club membership fees and some incorporate landing fees into the hourly rate whilst some don't.
I would therefore largley suggest that assessing a school by cost alone is difficult because you need to get each price onto the same level playing field. Your aim is to learn and so the best and quickest way to learn will be to put yourself into an environment , you feel you can learn best in which means that your cash will not be wasted repeating exercises because you are not happy with your training.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever pay a club large sums of money up front. If they fold you will never see that money again and likewise any reputable club will be happy to deal with you hour by hour financially.
Lastly, visit all the clubs within striking distance (some flying magazines have where to fly guides, but the one I prefer is the GA Directory on www.flyer.co.uk). Speak to instructors and students alike to get a feel for the place. Have a mouch round the aircraft and take in the atmosphere.
Generally speaking the cheapest aircraft to learn on are cessna 152's and they are very abundant, but again being cheapest does not guarantee best.
Regards
Obs cop
Although not from your area and therefore not able to advise on a specific school, I would suggest the following.
Cheap does not always mean poor instruction, likewise expensive does not guarantee good instruction. In comparing costs you need to get all of your comparable schools to one baseline.
Aircraft time can be charged as either on the Hobbs meter (which is operated and therefore starts running the moment the negine does) or brakes off to brakes on (therefore you are not paying for the considerable time it may take you as a learner to complete the after start checks etc.
Likewise, some clubs quote prices without VAT, others require considerable club membership fees and some incorporate landing fees into the hourly rate whilst some don't.
I would therefore largley suggest that assessing a school by cost alone is difficult because you need to get each price onto the same level playing field. Your aim is to learn and so the best and quickest way to learn will be to put yourself into an environment , you feel you can learn best in which means that your cash will not be wasted repeating exercises because you are not happy with your training.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever pay a club large sums of money up front. If they fold you will never see that money again and likewise any reputable club will be happy to deal with you hour by hour financially.
Lastly, visit all the clubs within striking distance (some flying magazines have where to fly guides, but the one I prefer is the GA Directory on www.flyer.co.uk). Speak to instructors and students alike to get a feel for the place. Have a mouch round the aircraft and take in the atmosphere.
Generally speaking the cheapest aircraft to learn on are cessna 152's and they are very abundant, but again being cheapest does not guarantee best.
Regards
Obs cop
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Got to agree with all the advice here. I chose the cheapest option when I started, and made what can be described as a fortunate mistake. The club I fly at is A1, but i think I just dropped lucky.
My own story is one of running out of money. Nowadays I fly about 5 hours per year to keep my hand in at the basics, this means I am approaching 30 hours in the book, and my last proper lesson was first solo 18 months ago.
The way a person learns a new skill means that there has to be continuity. For instance, my landings now, when I do fly, are well below par, certainly not good enough to go solo, and yet 18 months ago they were! My skills have gone rusty.
What does this mean for you? Well, we all know the feeling of stretched finances, aviation is never cheap, or inexpensive. To be engaged in this level of aviation you need to be either a millionaire or like most of us, be prepared to make the odd sacrifice in life to pursue a dream.
If you can afford a lesson every other week or so, then it will take you nearly twice as long as perhaps it should. Lesson one will no doubt be "straight and level". Lesson two if a couple of days later would be a little of this, and then onto turning or whatever. However if lesson two is a fortnight later, then it is probably going to be at least half an hour of revision, as you will have forgotten what to do in straight and level and will need to brush it up. And so the story carries on like that.
Furthermore, always remember that the elements rarely agree that pleasure flying is a good idea. If you book every other week, I will be surprised if you don't get weathered off at least once a month.
The Florida option is always a good one as you will concentrate your learning curve and the information will soak in better. In addition to this, as you are in another country, and in a purely aviation enviroment this will aid your learning as you will not be thinking "I've got to walk the dog, wash the pots, take the wife out etc..." on final approach!!
My advice, if you are young enough is save up!! When you have enough in the bank go and look at the schools around you. Also look at training abroad, Spain is an up and coming market in this respect, and you don't have to jump through hoops to get a visa either! When you have decided on a short list, if a foreign school, post again on here and get some feed back about the standards and the way training is done etc.
If you are looking at UK schools, go and book a trial lesson at two or three. You will not only get to see the school, meet the instructors and sample the aircraft, but you will be able to see what you get for your money. Don't forget that you can also put these hours in your log book!
For instance, when I chose my school, I had trial lessons at Barton, Manchester and Liverpool. LPL gave me everything that I was looking for at the right price!!! But don't forget that some schools charge landing fees seperatly. Not too great a problem in the early stages, but when you start on the circuit (landings and take offs) you will pay for every landing. This means that an hour in the curcuit costs say £100, and a landing is £5, six circuits will cost an additional £30, total lesson £130. This may be offset against a cheaper membership fee, but do your sums, a large membership fee and no landing fees may balance out better for you, or may be more expensive.
But the 3 best pieces of advice that I can give you are these...
1. DO NOT PAY UPFRONT
2. DO NOT PAY UPFRONT
3. MAKE NO UPFRONT PAYMENT
The history of learning to fly is littered with clubs who have gone belly up and taken all the students hard earned cash down the U bend with them. Be aware that running a flying club is not the way to make a fortune, sadly there are those who think otherwise, they aren't generally around for that long, but just long enough to take some poor sods money with them. A good, reputable club will have no problem with "pay as you go". Some offer packages, such as £500 for 5 hours for example, and these are a good idea, and will give you some sort of saving. Plus if they go belly up, you haven't lost it all. But if they insist on payment in full, upfront, WALK AWAY VERY QUICKLY!!
Whatever you decide to do, good luck and happy flying!
My own story is one of running out of money. Nowadays I fly about 5 hours per year to keep my hand in at the basics, this means I am approaching 30 hours in the book, and my last proper lesson was first solo 18 months ago.
The way a person learns a new skill means that there has to be continuity. For instance, my landings now, when I do fly, are well below par, certainly not good enough to go solo, and yet 18 months ago they were! My skills have gone rusty.
What does this mean for you? Well, we all know the feeling of stretched finances, aviation is never cheap, or inexpensive. To be engaged in this level of aviation you need to be either a millionaire or like most of us, be prepared to make the odd sacrifice in life to pursue a dream.
If you can afford a lesson every other week or so, then it will take you nearly twice as long as perhaps it should. Lesson one will no doubt be "straight and level". Lesson two if a couple of days later would be a little of this, and then onto turning or whatever. However if lesson two is a fortnight later, then it is probably going to be at least half an hour of revision, as you will have forgotten what to do in straight and level and will need to brush it up. And so the story carries on like that.
Furthermore, always remember that the elements rarely agree that pleasure flying is a good idea. If you book every other week, I will be surprised if you don't get weathered off at least once a month.
The Florida option is always a good one as you will concentrate your learning curve and the information will soak in better. In addition to this, as you are in another country, and in a purely aviation enviroment this will aid your learning as you will not be thinking "I've got to walk the dog, wash the pots, take the wife out etc..." on final approach!!
My advice, if you are young enough is save up!! When you have enough in the bank go and look at the schools around you. Also look at training abroad, Spain is an up and coming market in this respect, and you don't have to jump through hoops to get a visa either! When you have decided on a short list, if a foreign school, post again on here and get some feed back about the standards and the way training is done etc.
If you are looking at UK schools, go and book a trial lesson at two or three. You will not only get to see the school, meet the instructors and sample the aircraft, but you will be able to see what you get for your money. Don't forget that you can also put these hours in your log book!
For instance, when I chose my school, I had trial lessons at Barton, Manchester and Liverpool. LPL gave me everything that I was looking for at the right price!!! But don't forget that some schools charge landing fees seperatly. Not too great a problem in the early stages, but when you start on the circuit (landings and take offs) you will pay for every landing. This means that an hour in the curcuit costs say £100, and a landing is £5, six circuits will cost an additional £30, total lesson £130. This may be offset against a cheaper membership fee, but do your sums, a large membership fee and no landing fees may balance out better for you, or may be more expensive.
But the 3 best pieces of advice that I can give you are these...
1. DO NOT PAY UPFRONT
2. DO NOT PAY UPFRONT
3. MAKE NO UPFRONT PAYMENT
The history of learning to fly is littered with clubs who have gone belly up and taken all the students hard earned cash down the U bend with them. Be aware that running a flying club is not the way to make a fortune, sadly there are those who think otherwise, they aren't generally around for that long, but just long enough to take some poor sods money with them. A good, reputable club will have no problem with "pay as you go". Some offer packages, such as £500 for 5 hours for example, and these are a good idea, and will give you some sort of saving. Plus if they go belly up, you haven't lost it all. But if they insist on payment in full, upfront, WALK AWAY VERY QUICKLY!!
Whatever you decide to do, good luck and happy flying!
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LondonJ
I am very cofused, the guy asks about training locally near Heathrow and you suggest Florida !!!!!!
Why would you do that ?
Why would anyone want to train for a PPL in Florida when they live and fly somewhere else ?
On a slightly different track, what has ' cheap ' got to do with training other than for individuals where money is a real issue.
For myself I would always look for ' value for money ' as a means of figuing out what to purchase, be it flying training, cars or MP3 players.
I beleve housing and the cost of living is cheaper in Florida.........lets all move out there !!!
p.s Denham and White Waltham are close to you
.
LondonJ
I am very cofused, the guy asks about training locally near Heathrow and you suggest Florida !!!!!!
Why would you do that ?
Why would anyone want to train for a PPL in Florida when they live and fly somewhere else ?
On a slightly different track, what has ' cheap ' got to do with training other than for individuals where money is a real issue.
For myself I would always look for ' value for money ' as a means of figuing out what to purchase, be it flying training, cars or MP3 players.
I beleve housing and the cost of living is cheaper in Florida.........lets all move out there !!!
p.s Denham and White Waltham are close to you
.
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Drizzle, I believe he was just making a suggestion that he may like to have a look at... especially seeing as FL offers training at 1/2, 1/3, somtimes 1/4 the cost of a standard PPL over here!
But in terms of UK training, I couldn't falter what any of the guys above have put forward. I for one was fortunate enough to pay an up front dough and get my money's worth, but be very very wary - best advice is (as already suggested) STEER CLEAR OF ANY SCHOOL MAKING MANDAT. A PAYMENT IN FULL!
Cheers, Jack.
But in terms of UK training, I couldn't falter what any of the guys above have put forward. I for one was fortunate enough to pay an up front dough and get my money's worth, but be very very wary - best advice is (as already suggested) STEER CLEAR OF ANY SCHOOL MAKING MANDAT. A PAYMENT IN FULL!
Cheers, Jack.
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Im not so sure i agree with the no upfront payment, if you find a school that has been around a while ,looks good and feels right ask them if they do a discount for partial payment, here at Blackpool some schools offer 10% off if you pay £1500 to start an account then just pay some in to your account when its empty.
Others offer buy 10 hours get one free i think these are good deals, incentives for you to use your time/money quicker so you will fly more. At least one of the clubs also offers the 10% for IMC, CPL etc , now are we really to believe that we shouldnt take advantage of this? If you dont thats fine you pay full price if you do you take a very very small risk (with the clubs i have mentioned) and you get the reward.
Others offer buy 10 hours get one free i think these are good deals, incentives for you to use your time/money quicker so you will fly more. At least one of the clubs also offers the 10% for IMC, CPL etc , now are we really to believe that we shouldnt take advantage of this? If you dont thats fine you pay full price if you do you take a very very small risk (with the clubs i have mentioned) and you get the reward.
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Bob
No problem with incentive discounts like you describe, but only to a point.
What we are all saying is stay away from those that want it all upfront.
If you pay £1000 into an account, and keep topping it up all well and good, and should the unthinkable happen, then all you have lost is that amount.
However, could you imagine paying all the PPL training costs into an account in one go?? If they then go belly up on you, youv'e lost upwards of £6000 in one go.
That said, I for one cannot afford even £1k if there's a chance I might lose it.
The advice is yes, incentive related discounts are worth looking at, just don't pay everything upfront, and be conservative in what you do pay upfront.
Also, be aware that a school that seems really pushy about getting you into one of these schemes MAY have a cash flow problem and look at this as a quick fix, with your money!!!! That isn't to say that all offers are like that, but it should be at the back of your mind.
No problem with incentive discounts like you describe, but only to a point.
What we are all saying is stay away from those that want it all upfront.
If you pay £1000 into an account, and keep topping it up all well and good, and should the unthinkable happen, then all you have lost is that amount.
However, could you imagine paying all the PPL training costs into an account in one go?? If they then go belly up on you, youv'e lost upwards of £6000 in one go.
That said, I for one cannot afford even £1k if there's a chance I might lose it.
The advice is yes, incentive related discounts are worth looking at, just don't pay everything upfront, and be conservative in what you do pay upfront.
Also, be aware that a school that seems really pushy about getting you into one of these schemes MAY have a cash flow problem and look at this as a quick fix, with your money!!!! That isn't to say that all offers are like that, but it should be at the back of your mind.
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ChewyTheWookie,
I suppose this depends entirely upon how far you willing to commute and at what cost.
I would strongly recommend Old Sarum Flying Club, Salisbury. One thing in particular i have noticed about Old Sarum is that they allow students to take flying at their own pace. In addition to this they also offer the type of discount schemes and accounts that Bob Stinger discussed. For example if you are willing to pay £1000 up front, the club will put an additional 10% (£100) into your account. This stands for every £1000 placed in your account.
Alternatively, they also offer both a PPL special deal and also a frequent flyers scheme.
Or if you'd really like, just pay as you go.
If you'd like any further information please call Old Sarum Flying Club on 01722 322525
Hope this helps,
BB
I suppose this depends entirely upon how far you willing to commute and at what cost.
I would strongly recommend Old Sarum Flying Club, Salisbury. One thing in particular i have noticed about Old Sarum is that they allow students to take flying at their own pace. In addition to this they also offer the type of discount schemes and accounts that Bob Stinger discussed. For example if you are willing to pay £1000 up front, the club will put an additional 10% (£100) into your account. This stands for every £1000 placed in your account.
Alternatively, they also offer both a PPL special deal and also a frequent flyers scheme.
Or if you'd really like, just pay as you go.
If you'd like any further information please call Old Sarum Flying Club on 01722 322525
Hope this helps,
BB
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Generally speaking the cheapest aircraft to learn on are cessna 152's
When did Cessna last produce a 152? I'd be surprised if there are any out there with less than 1000 hours on the airframe, and most rather more than that.
And as you say, there are many great fun older microlights out there, costing around £4-£8k and around £25/hr to run.
G
And as you say, there are many great fun older microlights out there, costing around £4-£8k and around £25/hr to run.
G
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Seems production stopped in 1985 (thank the gods) - and since most of them are trainers, methinks anything lower then 1000hrs would be rare indeed!
Last time I was up in one (an Aerobat), the instructor showed me an aileron roll (starting in level flight). We ended up 30 degree nose down and heading towards Vne (and he kept wondering why). It was only then that I realised he wasn't trained in aerobatics
Not the 152's fault, for once!
Last time I was up in one (an Aerobat), the instructor showed me an aileron roll (starting in level flight). We ended up 30 degree nose down and heading towards Vne (and he kept wondering why). It was only then that I realised he wasn't trained in aerobatics
Not the 152's fault, for once!