Nystagmus During Aerobatics
Thread Starter
Nystagmus During Aerobatics
Just learning aerobatics as a newbie PPL. Main objectives, skill building, recovery from unusual attitudes, then maybe an endorsement.
I'm doing it in a Decathlon.
Only one problem, wingovers, Chandelles etc. are OK, but twice now during aileron rolls, I've had Nystygamus which is a rapid flicking of eyes left right etc as they try and track a spot that your inner ear is telling your brain that you are yawing.
First time, I moved my head (to look at my harness - negative G - coriolis illusion)). Last time I'm not sure if I moved my head or whether it was the red wine the night before and accompanying dehydration, or antibiotics I was taking for a cold.
Its a very disconcerting illusion that takes at least 30 seconds to clear and recurs if I start any pitching manouvres.
Question is, has this happened to any of you? What did you do about it?
I'm doing it in a Decathlon.
Only one problem, wingovers, Chandelles etc. are OK, but twice now during aileron rolls, I've had Nystygamus which is a rapid flicking of eyes left right etc as they try and track a spot that your inner ear is telling your brain that you are yawing.
First time, I moved my head (to look at my harness - negative G - coriolis illusion)). Last time I'm not sure if I moved my head or whether it was the red wine the night before and accompanying dehydration, or antibiotics I was taking for a cold.
Its a very disconcerting illusion that takes at least 30 seconds to clear and recurs if I start any pitching manouvres.
Question is, has this happened to any of you? What did you do about it?
nystagmus
Sunfish, you probably answered yourself in your penultimate line.If you drink, drink an equal amount of water to flush and rehydrate; if you are on antbio`s you perhaps shouldn`t be drinking alco; if you`ve got a cold you shouldn`t be flying, and certainly not aeros,as the semi-circular canals will be affected.Lay off it until you are clear of all effects, and read the other thread...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: England
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SF
I would have serious concerns about anyone willing to fly aeros
a) After a night on the booze
b) With a cold
c) Taking medication (unless specifically advised)
You might benefit from reading The Killing Zone (why pilots die) available from most Pilot shops. Many illuminating stories of death and destruction which could have been avoided with the application of a little common sense.
I would have serious concerns about anyone willing to fly aeros
a) After a night on the booze
b) With a cold
c) Taking medication (unless specifically advised)
You might benefit from reading The Killing Zone (why pilots die) available from most Pilot shops. Many illuminating stories of death and destruction which could have been avoided with the application of a little common sense.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ireland
Age: 44
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish,
The CAA & FAA (as well as CASA I would think) has strict guidelines for flying under the influence of everything you mentioned, and the best checklist can be summed up by IM SAFE:
Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Eating
A negative response to any of the above pretty much makes you unsafe for flying (while the condition lasts). Your post indicates that you seem to have ignored or been unaware of at least three of the above (Illness, medication and alcohol) and probably stress and fatigue as well if you factor in the side effects of the cold. What makes this even more dangerous for yourself is that you were doing aerobatics.
Frankly, I think you should consider yourself lucky to be alive. I agree with Davidt, reading 'The Killing Zone' would open your eyes.
If you think I'm overexaggerating, just think of how the CASA accident report would look if you'd crashed. Specifically, what would their conclusions be?
Bottom line, become more aware of your physical condition before strapping on an aircraft. Ground yourself for illness, medication, stress, alcohol, fatigue.
Confab
The CAA & FAA (as well as CASA I would think) has strict guidelines for flying under the influence of everything you mentioned, and the best checklist can be summed up by IM SAFE:
Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Eating
A negative response to any of the above pretty much makes you unsafe for flying (while the condition lasts). Your post indicates that you seem to have ignored or been unaware of at least three of the above (Illness, medication and alcohol) and probably stress and fatigue as well if you factor in the side effects of the cold. What makes this even more dangerous for yourself is that you were doing aerobatics.
Frankly, I think you should consider yourself lucky to be alive. I agree with Davidt, reading 'The Killing Zone' would open your eyes.
If you think I'm overexaggerating, just think of how the CASA accident report would look if you'd crashed. Specifically, what would their conclusions be?
Bottom line, become more aware of your physical condition before strapping on an aircraft. Ground yourself for illness, medication, stress, alcohol, fatigue.
Confab
Last edited by Confabulous; 12th Apr 2005 at 20:15.
Thread Starter
Ummmm, I'm doing this with an instructor, not on my own, furthermore, the impact of Nystygamus affected my ability to do more aerobatic manoeuvres, I was still perfectly able to fly the aircraft (and did so), so there is no safety issue here.
The lesson for me was that even relatively small (and legal) alcohol consumption the night before, coupled perhaps with prophylactic antibiotic use, the after affects of a cold and dehydration will affect my tolerance to aerobatic manouvres., thereby causing a wasting of wallet.
The lesson for me was that even relatively small (and legal) alcohol consumption the night before, coupled perhaps with prophylactic antibiotic use, the after affects of a cold and dehydration will affect my tolerance to aerobatic manouvres., thereby causing a wasting of wallet.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: wakefield
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is also an interesting assesment in "the killing zone" of the "pilot personality" one trait of which is an unwillingness to take the advice of others. That trait is very much at work here it seems.
Davidt sycamore & confabulous are offering very good advice.
I would also recomend reading The killing zone, It really opens your eyes to the daft things people do.
Davidt sycamore & confabulous are offering very good advice.
I would also recomend reading The killing zone, It really opens your eyes to the daft things people do.
Fixed+Rotary (aircraft, not washing lines)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Peak District, Yorkshire, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yikes! - A Killing Zone textbook example of what NOT to do.
When I first read your post I thought you were joking and looking to stir some controversy. I read about a newbie PPL, doing aerobatics, trying to think what would be the cause of the problem:
Hangover? Dehydration? Medication? Cold?
If you can feel the hangover enought to consider it a potential issue then you shouldn't be in the air. Indeed you shouldn't even be in the car driving to the airfield - especially if mixed with medication.
And then you stated:
and I'm sure that the testimony of all those who ended up as report statistics in The Killing Zone would have said the same - otherwise they wouldn't be in the air to begin with.
And what happens when your instructor isn't there and you still feel perfectly able to fly - who will take the controls in the event of a self induced emergency?
I make no apology for expressing my incredularity. In this business there are enough risks to consider. Adding to them deliberately is foolish and you seriously could end up killing yourself.
Go out there, learn the aerobatics, have fun, but please, please don't turn yourself into another tragic statistic!
Hangover? Dehydration? Medication? Cold?
If you can feel the hangover enought to consider it a potential issue then you shouldn't be in the air. Indeed you shouldn't even be in the car driving to the airfield - especially if mixed with medication.
And then you stated:
I was still perfectly able to fly the aircraft
And what happens when your instructor isn't there and you still feel perfectly able to fly - who will take the controls in the event of a self induced emergency?
I make no apology for expressing my incredularity. In this business there are enough risks to consider. Adding to them deliberately is foolish and you seriously could end up killing yourself.
Go out there, learn the aerobatics, have fun, but please, please don't turn yourself into another tragic statistic!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Coventry, UK
Age: 39
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Give the guy a break!
I'm sure most of us have turned up for a lesson after a night before having had a legal amount of booze...
Sunfish, this occurence was obviously unexpected and also a lesson learnt perhaps about the dehydration side of things.
For a sensible answer on your questions I would consult your AME.
There's far too many people on here ready to give you a b*ll*king without knowing the full story.
I'm sure most of us have turned up for a lesson after a night before having had a legal amount of booze...
Sunfish, this occurence was obviously unexpected and also a lesson learnt perhaps about the dehydration side of things.
For a sensible answer on your questions I would consult your AME.
There's far too many people on here ready to give you a b*ll*king without knowing the full story.
What a miserable boring lot of old nannies you lot are. No wonder the UK has become such a sh*te place to live. I expect you think speed cameras are a wonderful idea too.
"tut, tut, you shouldn't be flying if you had a glass of wine in the last 168 hours, in fact you're really taking a terrible risk if you even get out of bed and you should probably be locked up for even thinking about it," I expect that nice Mr Blair will make a law about it soon and then you'll all feel a lot better.
Of course nobody should fly while under the influence, but a glass of wine the night before? You shouldn't even drive to the airport? Have any of you read Yeager?
Jeez.
n5296s
"tut, tut, you shouldn't be flying if you had a glass of wine in the last 168 hours, in fact you're really taking a terrible risk if you even get out of bed and you should probably be locked up for even thinking about it," I expect that nice Mr Blair will make a law about it soon and then you'll all feel a lot better.
Of course nobody should fly while under the influence, but a glass of wine the night before? You shouldn't even drive to the airport? Have any of you read Yeager?
Jeez.
n5296s
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys,
I think both sides or this are probably over reacting a little.
The truth is probably that Sunfish over stepped the mark a little, but phrased his post badly enough that it looks like he over steped it a lot.
It probably turns out to be a case that the symptoms of his cold had disappeared, but he'd still one or two pills left to take.
He probably had a single glass of wine with his dinner the night before, and went flying the following afternoon.
Now ok, he shouldn't have been taking alcohol while on antibiotics. However a glass of wine 18 hours before is not likely to casue much of an issue.
If he hadn't experienced any of the symptoms of his cold for a few days then neither is the cold likely to cause much of an issue.
Antibotics? I don't know much about them, but I'm sure Sunfish would have asked his doctor about any possible side effects.
Nothing here to really call for a lynching.
And of course if he had miscalculated on any of these points, he did still have the actual commander, the instructor, on board to save the day.
However Sunfish probably was trying to over analyise the ill effects he felt on the flight, and badly phrased his post. He was thinking about dehydration that only existed in theory from drinking a glass of wine the previous day, but that wasn't actually there in practice.
He asked if his cold could have been the problem, when he probably ment was it possible that he was still effected by it, even though he no longer had any symptoms?
On the other hand, if I'm wrong and he had a bottle of wine the night before, while on medication, and with a full blown cold, and went flying the next morning, then he deserves what he's getting.
Sunfish,
I've always found it helpful to think of the AAIB accident report that would result from an accident on a flight that I was about to undertake, and read it to myself. If it would sound like the pilot was just unlucky then I'm ok to fly. But sometimes I realise I'd think the pilot was a complete fool for going flying that day, and then I know to stay at home.
Based on the facts that you've posted in your first post, and the way that you'd phrased them, the accident report would probably start something like....
"The handling pilot, who was taking medication for a bad cold that he was suffering from, had consumed a significant amount of wine the previous evening. On the morning of the flight, which was to be an aerobatics session, he reported suffering from dehydration.........."
If when you imagine the AAIB report, you think it might start like that, then it's clearly not a day to go flying.
I'm questioning your judgement; like I said above, I think you probably just phrased your post in such a way that it makes people think the worst. I just hope that you might take that thought on board, and use it as a good bench mark to consider if it's a good day to go flying.
dp
I think both sides or this are probably over reacting a little.
The truth is probably that Sunfish over stepped the mark a little, but phrased his post badly enough that it looks like he over steped it a lot.
It probably turns out to be a case that the symptoms of his cold had disappeared, but he'd still one or two pills left to take.
He probably had a single glass of wine with his dinner the night before, and went flying the following afternoon.
Now ok, he shouldn't have been taking alcohol while on antibiotics. However a glass of wine 18 hours before is not likely to casue much of an issue.
If he hadn't experienced any of the symptoms of his cold for a few days then neither is the cold likely to cause much of an issue.
Antibotics? I don't know much about them, but I'm sure Sunfish would have asked his doctor about any possible side effects.
Nothing here to really call for a lynching.
And of course if he had miscalculated on any of these points, he did still have the actual commander, the instructor, on board to save the day.
However Sunfish probably was trying to over analyise the ill effects he felt on the flight, and badly phrased his post. He was thinking about dehydration that only existed in theory from drinking a glass of wine the previous day, but that wasn't actually there in practice.
He asked if his cold could have been the problem, when he probably ment was it possible that he was still effected by it, even though he no longer had any symptoms?
On the other hand, if I'm wrong and he had a bottle of wine the night before, while on medication, and with a full blown cold, and went flying the next morning, then he deserves what he's getting.
Sunfish,
I've always found it helpful to think of the AAIB accident report that would result from an accident on a flight that I was about to undertake, and read it to myself. If it would sound like the pilot was just unlucky then I'm ok to fly. But sometimes I realise I'd think the pilot was a complete fool for going flying that day, and then I know to stay at home.
Based on the facts that you've posted in your first post, and the way that you'd phrased them, the accident report would probably start something like....
"The handling pilot, who was taking medication for a bad cold that he was suffering from, had consumed a significant amount of wine the previous evening. On the morning of the flight, which was to be an aerobatics session, he reported suffering from dehydration.........."
If when you imagine the AAIB report, you think it might start like that, then it's clearly not a day to go flying.
I'm questioning your judgement; like I said above, I think you probably just phrased your post in such a way that it makes people think the worst. I just hope that you might take that thought on board, and use it as a good bench mark to consider if it's a good day to go flying.
dp
Thread Starter
Thank you all for your posts. I welcome your concerns for my health and safety. I was hoping to obtain some advice from anyone who has actually expereinced this phenomenon because I need to determine exactly what is causing the problem and fix it if possible if I wish to continue doing aerobatics.
While I concur with the idea of writing your own hypothetical accident report, I have not properly explained the actual facts surrounding this event.
I am quite familiar with the "I'm safe" formula and I've postponed a few flights before on the basis of this mantra.
Without boring you with the excruciating details of my health, I'd like to explain that I was not suffering the after affects of a cold. That finished the week before, but I was finishing a course of antibiotics to ensure I didn't cop a secondary infection.
The reason I mentioned antibiotics was to see if anyone else has reported vertigo, dizziness etc. in flight as a result of antibiotic injestion. The data sheet of the product concerned does mention the possibility but qualifies it with the word "rarely".
As for dehydration, yes, I was dehydrated, but not directly from a few glasses of wine the night before, but rather from failing to drink enough water the night before and the morning after. I've also since learned that Coca Cola is a diuretic, so my actual attempts at rehydration with this fluid actually made the situation worse. As for a hangover, definitely not, there is no way I would drive, let alone fly aerobatics or normal manouevres, if I had a hangover anyway.
I will continue the experiment next week, with no alcohol for 48 hours at least, attention to rest and hydration, no antibiotics and see if the nystygamus still appears when I do an aileron roll.
If it doesn't, then I have graphically demonstrated the fitness requirements required for aerobatics. If it still appears then I guess I just have to put up with it although there is some indication that you can be trained to overcome it.
I'll get "The Killing Zone" as soon as I can. As for an inability to face facts, bad attitude etc. I respectfully suggest I would not be exploring this matter on an internet forum if I felt I was invulnerable, in fact the situation is quite the reverse.
While I concur with the idea of writing your own hypothetical accident report, I have not properly explained the actual facts surrounding this event.
I am quite familiar with the "I'm safe" formula and I've postponed a few flights before on the basis of this mantra.
Without boring you with the excruciating details of my health, I'd like to explain that I was not suffering the after affects of a cold. That finished the week before, but I was finishing a course of antibiotics to ensure I didn't cop a secondary infection.
The reason I mentioned antibiotics was to see if anyone else has reported vertigo, dizziness etc. in flight as a result of antibiotic injestion. The data sheet of the product concerned does mention the possibility but qualifies it with the word "rarely".
As for dehydration, yes, I was dehydrated, but not directly from a few glasses of wine the night before, but rather from failing to drink enough water the night before and the morning after. I've also since learned that Coca Cola is a diuretic, so my actual attempts at rehydration with this fluid actually made the situation worse. As for a hangover, definitely not, there is no way I would drive, let alone fly aerobatics or normal manouevres, if I had a hangover anyway.
I will continue the experiment next week, with no alcohol for 48 hours at least, attention to rest and hydration, no antibiotics and see if the nystygamus still appears when I do an aileron roll.
If it doesn't, then I have graphically demonstrated the fitness requirements required for aerobatics. If it still appears then I guess I just have to put up with it although there is some indication that you can be trained to overcome it.
I'll get "The Killing Zone" as soon as I can. As for an inability to face facts, bad attitude etc. I respectfully suggest I would not be exploring this matter on an internet forum if I felt I was invulnerable, in fact the situation is quite the reverse.
Last edited by Sunfish; 14th Apr 2005 at 23:24.
I'm glad that you clarified this, Sunfish. I could see that you were being unfairly beaten up and I was about to explain the situation.
I'm Sunfish' instructor.
I'm Sunfish' instructor.
Fixed+Rotary (aircraft, not washing lines)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Peak District, Yorkshire, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Point(s) taken regard 'jumping to conclusions' and 'beatings' and these things do happen too frequently around these parts.
In this case though the strength of the responses were genuinely intended to prompt Sunfish to reconsider his actions in future so as not to become another statistic.
I'm no fan of nannying or over regulation but am very keen that we all fly as safely as possible - surely no problem in that?
Anyway, back to the aerobatics, that's what attracted me to the thread in the first place ;-)
In this case though the strength of the responses were genuinely intended to prompt Sunfish to reconsider his actions in future so as not to become another statistic.
I'm no fan of nannying or over regulation but am very keen that we all fly as safely as possible - surely no problem in that?
Anyway, back to the aerobatics, that's what attracted me to the thread in the first place ;-)
Thread Starter
Wow! I see you range far and wid eover the internet David! Next week I'm flying up to Broken Hill, so will be back for another go with you in the mighty Decathlon the following weekend if you are available.
Cheers to all.
Cheers to all.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ireland
Age: 44
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish,
Thanks for clearing up the misunderstandings, any reaction from myself was based on what the post said in the first place - it certainly wasn't meant as a beating! Indeed a glass of wine the night before is fine, but personally I'm wary of Klacid - gives me hallucinations if I take it. As long as it's ok with your AME it's fine obviously.
Conf
PS: I was at a non-aviation course recently and heard something that's very relevant to aviation - 'To ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME.'
I'll be using that one a lot!
Thanks for clearing up the misunderstandings, any reaction from myself was based on what the post said in the first place - it certainly wasn't meant as a beating! Indeed a glass of wine the night before is fine, but personally I'm wary of Klacid - gives me hallucinations if I take it. As long as it's ok with your AME it's fine obviously.
Conf
PS: I was at a non-aviation course recently and heard something that's very relevant to aviation - 'To ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME.'
I'll be using that one a lot!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if you might just need to build some G tolerance. Many of the manouvers are positive G but rolls do go from +ve to -ve and back to +ve and can catch you out. Try bracing your neck muscles.
anti biotics, alcohol, low blood sugar and dehidration also affect G sensitivity a lot.
When I first started I used to make myself woozie with 4G but now my tolerance has increased 6G is no problem.
I highly recomend ALan Cassidies book on aerobatics.
Perhaps we'll see you at a competition soon
see http://www.aerobatics.org.uk for details. We welcome beginners at competitions (and the first entry is free!!)
Keep at it.. aeobatics is the most rewarding flying you'll experience. straight and level will never seem the same again.
anti biotics, alcohol, low blood sugar and dehidration also affect G sensitivity a lot.
When I first started I used to make myself woozie with 4G but now my tolerance has increased 6G is no problem.
I highly recomend ALan Cassidies book on aerobatics.
Perhaps we'll see you at a competition soon
see http://www.aerobatics.org.uk for details. We welcome beginners at competitions (and the first entry is free!!)
Keep at it.. aeobatics is the most rewarding flying you'll experience. straight and level will never seem the same again.