Threat to N Reg Operations
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Threat to N Reg Operations
The Dft website now contains a warning that N reg operations in the UK may be stopped. Go to Aviation on the Dft site and then go to International Services and then Using a Foreign egistered Aircraft for Training in the UK. It says ...
It should be noted that the Department is currently reviewing the legislation affecting the use of foreign registered aircraft in the UK. It is possible that the legislation may be amended to prevent foreign registered aircraft which are not involved in commercial air transportation from being permanently based in the UK.
This was posted on Mar 14. There is now an application form for getting Sec State's permission to train on an N reg aircraft in the UK.
Anyone have any further info?
It should be noted that the Department is currently reviewing the legislation affecting the use of foreign registered aircraft in the UK. It is possible that the legislation may be amended to prevent foreign registered aircraft which are not involved in commercial air transportation from being permanently based in the UK.
This was posted on Mar 14. There is now an application form for getting Sec State's permission to train on an N reg aircraft in the UK.
Anyone have any further info?
Thanks CM for the simple link!
This looks more serious than any of the "rumours" we have seen in the past.
So, the Dft are prepared to allow someone to train on their own N reg aircraft but not allow them to continue to keep them in the UK and fly them privately afterwards??
UV
This looks more serious than any of the "rumours" we have seen in the past.
So, the Dft are prepared to allow someone to train on their own N reg aircraft but not allow them to continue to keep them in the UK and fly them privately afterwards??
UV
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I wish they would make their mind up
I wish they would make their bloody mind up quickly then because I spent £7k putting my Bonanza on the N so I could do an FAA IR and it looks from that that it may have been a waste of time and money. I have also just been to the states for my FAA PPL.
If I knew what they were going to do I could decide whether to put it back on the G. I wonder how long this review will take?? Anyone have any idea.
If I knew what they were going to do I could decide whether to put it back on the G. I wonder how long this review will take?? Anyone have any idea.
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Flyin Dutch
What is that meant to mean. Is this not news. I have heard plenty of worrying rumours before but this seems pretty subsantantial. I didnt understand your comment. Are you saying this isnt a problem?
What is that meant to mean. Is this not news. I have heard plenty of worrying rumours before but this seems pretty subsantantial. I didnt understand your comment. Are you saying this isnt a problem?
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What is even more interesting is item 7 of the application form;
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicant's knowledge, the person(s) to be trained meets the medical standards for pilots established in Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.
The FAA medical standards are in some cases lower than ICAO and that is one of the reasons why people go down that route. Thus unless the application was done on the basis of crew holding ICAO or JAA medicals then one could not confirm item 7!!!!!.
Regards,
DFC
Confirmation that, to the best of the applicant's knowledge, the person(s) to be trained meets the medical standards for pilots established in Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.
The FAA medical standards are in some cases lower than ICAO and that is one of the reasons why people go down that route. Thus unless the application was done on the basis of crew holding ICAO or JAA medicals then one could not confirm item 7!!!!!.
Regards,
DFC
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I honestly can't say I am surprised. The N reg route to an IR has received a considerable amount of coverage in the aviation magazines in recent months and I would imagine that the number of G reg aircraft moving to the N reg and staying here in the UK has been steadily rising in that time. Recent events have probably also resulted in a noticeable increase in applications for permission to do training at the DfT.
We can only hope that somewhere in the midst of this review somebody will stumble upon the simple reason that this is happening and that common sense will prevail. All they need to do is to make the IR something that is as attainable (or nearly so) as the FAA version and the flow will stop and even probably reverse overnight IMHO. The specific problem that they need to address is that of requiring people to sit the full suite of 'professional' exams and to attend the ground school. The standard of theoretical knowledge required for the FAA exam is good enough for the nation with the most instrument rated private pilots so it ought to be good enough here.
Speaking for myself (N reg aircraft and planning on getting an FAA IR when time permits) if they were to find a way to solve the IR problem then my aircraft would be back on the G reg as soon as I could get it done!
We can only hope that somewhere in the midst of this review somebody will stumble upon the simple reason that this is happening and that common sense will prevail. All they need to do is to make the IR something that is as attainable (or nearly so) as the FAA version and the flow will stop and even probably reverse overnight IMHO. The specific problem that they need to address is that of requiring people to sit the full suite of 'professional' exams and to attend the ground school. The standard of theoretical knowledge required for the FAA exam is good enough for the nation with the most instrument rated private pilots so it ought to be good enough here.
Speaking for myself (N reg aircraft and planning on getting an FAA IR when time permits) if they were to find a way to solve the IR problem then my aircraft would be back on the G reg as soon as I could get it done!
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Sadly our nation's outlook on life tends to be "bottle half empty", rather than "bottle half full."
Thus, if public transport doesn't work too well and is very expensive, then lets punish car drivers through congestion charges.
So, regretfully, I believe that the N reg loophole may be closed and no easily accessible IR made available - I base this judgement purely on the observable decisions elsewhere.
Thus, if public transport doesn't work too well and is very expensive, then lets punish car drivers through congestion charges.
So, regretfully, I believe that the N reg loophole may be closed and no easily accessible IR made available - I base this judgement purely on the observable decisions elsewhere.
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I have to agree. I put my plane on the "N" just so I could do the FAA IR and have spent a lot of money and effort when I would much rather have kept it on the "G" and it beggars belief that somebody involved in UK aviation cannot see the problem and put a fix together. I dont want to be a pilot of any commercial plane. I just want an IR to make my journeys safer and more achievable.
Our country is full of civil servants who have no idea they are here to "serve" the public. They believe they are here to legislate and harrass honest (and dishonest) people. They make no effort to make life easy and enjoyable for the citizens the pretend to work for.
Clearly my opinion does not include every civil servant but I suspect from the ones I have had dealings with that it is a majority. Perhaps I am just bitter after paying £50 to a dog warden who picked up my dog outside my house today (he had a tag with my address on) and took him away to a dog pound 9 miles away. (sorry I know my dog has got nothing to do with aviation)
If I was Prime Minister.................
Our country is full of civil servants who have no idea they are here to "serve" the public. They believe they are here to legislate and harrass honest (and dishonest) people. They make no effort to make life easy and enjoyable for the citizens the pretend to work for.
Clearly my opinion does not include every civil servant but I suspect from the ones I have had dealings with that it is a majority. Perhaps I am just bitter after paying £50 to a dog warden who picked up my dog outside my house today (he had a tag with my address on) and took him away to a dog pound 9 miles away. (sorry I know my dog has got nothing to do with aviation)
If I was Prime Minister.................
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The low down and straight from the horses mouth.
I have just come off the phone to a Duncan Nichols who is the man at the DfT who is reponsible for conducting a review into "N" reg operations in the UK.
He was extremely helpful and pleasant and he was happy to talk about the process they are going through.
He told me that he has been tasked for about 2 years with doing this review but that it has not been a priority but that events earlier this year have now made it their and his priority. He said that they have held meetings and there was much disquiet about the UK GA fleet shifting to the "N" and it was felt it should be stopped.
I had a very good conversation where I explained the private pilots perspective but he pointed out that the problems with obtaining licences was nothing to do with the DfT and was the CAA's responsibility and they had to operate in line with other european states.
I have to say that despite me spending many thousands of pounds on putting my Bonanza on the "N" last year I am now convinced that this will become outlawed pretty soon. He said that they expect to have some preliminary findings in the next few months and he will make a report to the minister who makes a decision and it will be up to him but I can tell you from the conversation that it sounds a fait acompli.
He also said "when" they make the decision they will give a time period for people to convert back. I have decided that I will have to put the FAA IR on hold for now and I will convert my Bonanza back at its annual in July unless they have said otherwise.
If anyone wants any more info from this conversation I will be happy to chat about it. Just personal message me and I will give you my phone number.
I have just come off the phone to a Duncan Nichols who is the man at the DfT who is reponsible for conducting a review into "N" reg operations in the UK.
He was extremely helpful and pleasant and he was happy to talk about the process they are going through.
He told me that he has been tasked for about 2 years with doing this review but that it has not been a priority but that events earlier this year have now made it their and his priority. He said that they have held meetings and there was much disquiet about the UK GA fleet shifting to the "N" and it was felt it should be stopped.
I had a very good conversation where I explained the private pilots perspective but he pointed out that the problems with obtaining licences was nothing to do with the DfT and was the CAA's responsibility and they had to operate in line with other european states.
I have to say that despite me spending many thousands of pounds on putting my Bonanza on the "N" last year I am now convinced that this will become outlawed pretty soon. He said that they expect to have some preliminary findings in the next few months and he will make a report to the minister who makes a decision and it will be up to him but I can tell you from the conversation that it sounds a fait acompli.
He also said "when" they make the decision they will give a time period for people to convert back. I have decided that I will have to put the FAA IR on hold for now and I will convert my Bonanza back at its annual in July unless they have said otherwise.
If anyone wants any more info from this conversation I will be happy to chat about it. Just personal message me and I will give you my phone number.
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This does not affect me directly, however.....
Says the guy tasked with reviewing the situation... So will his report to ministers not state WHY so many are opting to go 'N' Registered I wonder? Or was his remit to find a way to stop owners going the 'N' route?
Just interested.....
Regards, SD..
he pointed out that the problems with obtaining licences was nothing to do with the DfT and was the CAA's responsibility and they had to operate in line with other european states.
Just interested.....
Regards, SD..
This is the point where in my office it is traditional to ask CAA
"What's the safety argument?"
Since in theory that is the ONLY basis on which they can make a change in policy.
G
"What's the safety argument?"
Since in theory that is the ONLY basis on which they can make a change in policy.
G
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I agree and I pointed out to the man at the DfT strongly why pilots choose this route but he said that licensing was the CAA and the DfT was merely involved in this N reg bit.
Believe me I had my say after having spent many thousands of pounds putting my plane on the N Reg.
He said that he was responsible for the safe operation of planes in the UK and if they were on a different register and maintained to different rules they could not manage that.
I have to say that I agree with the logic but it doesnt half p**s me off that I have wasted money going on the N to get round ridiculous licensing laws when in reality our own CAA should look at why people are choosing to do it and fix the problem. I suppose that common sense approach is too much to ask for though??
Believe me I had my say after having spent many thousands of pounds putting my plane on the N Reg.
He said that he was responsible for the safe operation of planes in the UK and if they were on a different register and maintained to different rules they could not manage that.
I have to say that I agree with the logic but it doesnt half p**s me off that I have wasted money going on the N to get round ridiculous licensing laws when in reality our own CAA should look at why people are choosing to do it and fix the problem. I suppose that common sense approach is too much to ask for though??
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He said that they have held meetings and there was much disquiet about the UK GA fleet shifting to the "N" and it was felt it should be stopped
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Yes he said that it was felt that all these planes operating outside of the control of the UK authority wasnt right. (not that he felt that personally but that this was an opinion that had been widely expressed at his meetings).
I can see their point. If loads of foreign cars were driving around the UK not taxed and insured here, we as citizens may complain. When you tie it in with the reasons why pilots choose this option then it seems unfair but seperately it seems quite sensible not to allow this operation. (not that I want them to stop it of course)
I can see their point. If loads of foreign cars were driving around the UK not taxed and insured here, we as citizens may complain. When you tie it in with the reasons why pilots choose this option then it seems unfair but seperately it seems quite sensible not to allow this operation. (not that I want them to stop it of course)
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I've just been reading all of this forum so far. I've got an FAA IR and fly an 'N' airplane.
Stuart, do you know if they will put a stop to all N reg operations that aren't commercial within the UK all together or just stop 'n' reg airplanes being based here?
what i'm trying to say is if I had my plane based in France for example would I still be able to do 'N' reg. private operations in England??
TD
Stuart, do you know if they will put a stop to all N reg operations that aren't commercial within the UK all together or just stop 'n' reg airplanes being based here?
what i'm trying to say is if I had my plane based in France for example would I still be able to do 'N' reg. private operations in England??
TD
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Oh I dont know about that. I think you would be able to operate here as I cant see how they could stop that but they (it seems) would look to stop people basing N reg planes here. For what its worth and I have no factual basis for this I have heard in this past that France has been clamping down on N Reg for a good while.
I am pretty cheesed off because I have only just (last July) gone onto the N but it sounded pretty convincing to me that they intend to put a stop to this apart from the commercial operations.
I am pretty cheesed off because I have only just (last July) gone onto the N but it sounded pretty convincing to me that they intend to put a stop to this apart from the commercial operations.
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This is the way I see it, not that I am any authority on the subject.
The DofT have said that the instructor must have written permission to operate a training flight within UK airspace in a non G reg. Aircraft. They have also stated that you must be a named owner of the aircraft in question to receive that training.
I see the reasoning behind this to stop FTO’s in the UK teaching non JAR qualifications. This is why you have to be a named owner in order to receive training, and the owner limit being set at 4. From what I gather this does not stop people flying N reg. Aircraft within the UK or indeed any other country. What can they do, stop all non UK Aircraft flying in UK Airspace? I don’t think that’s going to happern.
Its all in ANO 115
The DofT have said that the instructor must have written permission to operate a training flight within UK airspace in a non G reg. Aircraft. They have also stated that you must be a named owner of the aircraft in question to receive that training.
I see the reasoning behind this to stop FTO’s in the UK teaching non JAR qualifications. This is why you have to be a named owner in order to receive training, and the owner limit being set at 4. From what I gather this does not stop people flying N reg. Aircraft within the UK or indeed any other country. What can they do, stop all non UK Aircraft flying in UK Airspace? I don’t think that’s going to happern.
Its all in ANO 115