Costs of owning a plane
Oz - no idea. I know that it's coming out commendably light (around 255kg I believe) and faster than anything else in class - somewhere around 140kn compared to the CT's 120kn, but no idea about serviceability.
I don't think the ban-bi is making many appearance in the monthly AAIB redtops however, which can only be a goood thing.
G
I don't think the ban-bi is making many appearance in the monthly AAIB redtops however, which can only be a goood thing.
G
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Pick the right aircraft and the annual level of asset appreciation will make serious inroads into paying for your flying.
I once bought a 172 for £27k. I flew it 300 hrs in three years and then sold it for £36k. I spent £1800 on new leather seats so therefore an asset appreciation of £2400 per annum on original investment.
This really should be allowed for when choosing a type to purchase. In my view any Cessna or Piper in good condition with good engine hours will always be sought after and will always command big prices.
If I had a spare £250k I would buy 10 good C152's and look after them for 10 years and then make a stonking profit when people are scrabbling around for good ones by then. Seriously, I reckon that's the winning one in the future...Cessna just won't be making them again.
Any views?
I once bought a 172 for £27k. I flew it 300 hrs in three years and then sold it for £36k. I spent £1800 on new leather seats so therefore an asset appreciation of £2400 per annum on original investment.
This really should be allowed for when choosing a type to purchase. In my view any Cessna or Piper in good condition with good engine hours will always be sought after and will always command big prices.
If I had a spare £250k I would buy 10 good C152's and look after them for 10 years and then make a stonking profit when people are scrabbling around for good ones by then. Seriously, I reckon that's the winning one in the future...Cessna just won't be making them again.
Any views?
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Mono,
The moderate and probably, to a reasonable extent, unfounded worry about 100LL future cost and availability probably will never go away from this point on. If future engine conversions or replacements are required to keep 'em in the air then the price might even tumble.
The moderate and probably, to a reasonable extent, unfounded worry about 100LL future cost and availability probably will never go away from this point on. If future engine conversions or replacements are required to keep 'em in the air then the price might even tumble.
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Sure.
You may have 10 C152s but you won't get a classy girlie to get inside any of them
As we are examining business models for the anorak market, you might make more money buying up (on Ebay) the really well made 1950s Hornby 00-track diecast models, in very good condition, and repaint them. Then flog them back on Ebay - you get amazing prices.
And you won't need a Class II medical either - in fact you won't get one after you've sniffed all that solvent
You may have 10 C152s but you won't get a classy girlie to get inside any of them
As we are examining business models for the anorak market, you might make more money buying up (on Ebay) the really well made 1950s Hornby 00-track diecast models, in very good condition, and repaint them. Then flog them back on Ebay - you get amazing prices.
And you won't need a Class II medical either - in fact you won't get one after you've sniffed all that solvent
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Over £12k per year
I put £1000 per month into my aviation account and it is never enough. Having said that I do buy all my bits and bats out of the account.
My plane is a 1993 Bonanza with very low hours so it doesnt break that much (hopefuly)
It is an expensive hobby but worth it for everything but economic reasons.
My plane is a 1993 Bonanza with very low hours so it doesnt break that much (hopefuly)
It is an expensive hobby but worth it for everything but economic reasons.
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That's about right, £15k/year for 150hrs/year in a new-ish complex SEP.
If you have a nice plane which is on Transport CofA anyway, you can put together a small group of careful ATP-level pilots and rent it out to them. Even charging a PA28-181 type of rental this can help substantially with the costs.
Getting back to the original question, can one get a new plane for £70k? It would have to be a Permit one, presumably. I never looked at this close (no IFR possible) but have seen some amazing aircraft that will quite literally run circles around the standard old iron and while at it will beat it on fuel economy by a huge margin.
And nothing prevents one fitting a horizon into a Permit plane, does it??
If you have a nice plane which is on Transport CofA anyway, you can put together a small group of careful ATP-level pilots and rent it out to them. Even charging a PA28-181 type of rental this can help substantially with the costs.
Getting back to the original question, can one get a new plane for £70k? It would have to be a Permit one, presumably. I never looked at this close (no IFR possible) but have seen some amazing aircraft that will quite literally run circles around the standard old iron and while at it will beat it on fuel economy by a huge margin.
And nothing prevents one fitting a horizon into a Permit plane, does it??
Last edited by IO540; 25th Jan 2005 at 09:27.
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stuartforrest,
Your 1000 - Does that include finance costs or is that just hangarage/insurance/fuel/maintenance etc.
I was looking at getting a fastish type - Rockwell Commander maybe (Still researching) - but am daunted by how to finance it to be honest. Misses does not want me to secure anything on the house or mess with the mortgage. I have about 1200-1400 per month to burn! - Is it possible on that amount?
GV
Your 1000 - Does that include finance costs or is that just hangarage/insurance/fuel/maintenance etc.
I was looking at getting a fastish type - Rockwell Commander maybe (Still researching) - but am daunted by how to finance it to be honest. Misses does not want me to secure anything on the house or mess with the mortgage. I have about 1200-1400 per month to burn! - Is it possible on that amount?
GV
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Just took a look at the specs for the Ban-bi - absolutely unbelivable, 135KIAS cruise, 700 nm range, for €50,000. Can't wait till they develop a compression ignition variant.
Out of curiousity, is there any information on microlighting in Ireland? Can the aircraft be flown out of the country (UK, continental Europe etc) without masses of paperwork?
Out of curiousity, is there any information on microlighting in Ireland? Can the aircraft be flown out of the country (UK, continental Europe etc) without masses of paperwork?
http://www.nmai.ie/faqs.htm
The UK will allow an Irish "flight permit" aircraft to fly into it's airspace for up to 28 days per year without anything more than a quick Email to let CAA know (UK Airworthiness notice 52 if you want to look it up), not sure about the rest of the world.
I believe that longer permissions, up to about 60 days per year are pretty much automatic from UK-CAA, you just need to ask.
G
The UK will allow an Irish "flight permit" aircraft to fly into it's airspace for up to 28 days per year without anything more than a quick Email to let CAA know (UK Airworthiness notice 52 if you want to look it up), not sure about the rest of the world.
I believe that longer permissions, up to about 60 days per year are pretty much automatic from UK-CAA, you just need to ask.
G
Good payload as well, 450kg MAUW, about 250-255kg ZFW, and having flown other aircraft with the same engine, I'd guess it's probably using around 15-20 litres/hour in the cruise.
So that'll be two 12-stone adults and about 3 hours / 400nm fuel, not too bad.
G
So that'll be two 12-stone adults and about 3 hours / 400nm fuel, not too bad.
G
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Mono is right, oldish production aircraft dont depreciate very much and a good condition on that has a nice interior and paint job will gain in value.
But if you want good performance you need to look at the kitbuilt/homebuilt types and they are much cheaper to maintain too. The most popular is the Vans RV range, I have an RV-6 which is superb. Looks good, 160kt cruise, good short field performance,happy on grass or hard ( but doesnt like really bumpy grass!) good range, plenty of bagage space. About 30L per hour conservative estimate, less when leaned out on a long cruise.
You can buy one for about £50,000 second hand, but it will cost you more for a good one.
Costs
Hangarage/landing fees/club membership £1200 p/a the old hangar where bose-x is.
Insurance £1400 p/a (50K hull 500K liability)
they are the expensive bits
Annual £200 inc paperwork
Fuel 30l per hour
oil 6L per 50 hours
other maint- in 2 1/2 years its been flying one set of tyres, I think that was about £60 and a couple of screws and bolts. Oil filter every 50 hours.
The best way to fly cheaply though is to join a group, check it out first that the aircraft is well maintained and the finances are sound. Then you pay only a proportion of the expensive bit- hangarage and insurance and pay for the fuel and maybe an hourly cost when you fly.
But if you want good performance you need to look at the kitbuilt/homebuilt types and they are much cheaper to maintain too. The most popular is the Vans RV range, I have an RV-6 which is superb. Looks good, 160kt cruise, good short field performance,happy on grass or hard ( but doesnt like really bumpy grass!) good range, plenty of bagage space. About 30L per hour conservative estimate, less when leaned out on a long cruise.
You can buy one for about £50,000 second hand, but it will cost you more for a good one.
Costs
Hangarage/landing fees/club membership £1200 p/a the old hangar where bose-x is.
Insurance £1400 p/a (50K hull 500K liability)
they are the expensive bits
Annual £200 inc paperwork
Fuel 30l per hour
oil 6L per 50 hours
other maint- in 2 1/2 years its been flying one set of tyres, I think that was about £60 and a couple of screws and bolts. Oil filter every 50 hours.
The best way to fly cheaply though is to join a group, check it out first that the aircraft is well maintained and the finances are sound. Then you pay only a proportion of the expensive bit- hangarage and insurance and pay for the fuel and maybe an hourly cost when you fly.
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Finance
Your 1000 - Does that include finance costs or is that just hangarage/insurance/fuel/maintenance etc.
Sorry no that doesnt include finance costs because I bought it outright. I suppose that I would be losing interest that I would get from the bank at around £10k per year so if you add that in it is really expensive but then I got a pretty good deal on my plane and I am confident that when the dollar turns back the other way I will make a fair chunk on this one.
I actually sold my 182 after owning it for less than a year and made about £5k on that after expenses so planes are not that bad an investment as long as too many things dont go wrong.
I have lost fortunes on cars without have of the pleasure and prestige that goes with owning a plane so I dont know why I put so much on the costs. I certainly lose more than £20k per year in depreciation on my cars currently so they cost a whole lot more than the plane!
Its funny I never think about it like that when I am paying out my monthly bills for the plane I get stressed about it yet I never think that my cars have lost a chunk more than that in value in the same month.
I will have to take that into account in the future.
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It's strange really - all these oldish aircraft about (Cessnas, Pipers & Beechs), costing the best part of £15k to maintain and £100,000 to buy, draggy airframes, suspect avionics, annuals & big inefficient engines are being used as trainers - no wonder the cost of learning to fly is is so high... some of the microlights & VLAs I've researched can outperform them in almost every category - even the Ban-bi & co can cruise for 1200nm at 110kts (40% power) at FL110.
Ok, you have to build them yourself, but is it worth it? Well it's convinced me.
Actually Genghis's thread about where new aircraft come from have clinched it - Cessna & Piper are bleeding to death, and rightly so.
Long live progress
PS: Does an SFC of 0.45 sound right for a Rotax 912?
Ok, you have to build them yourself, but is it worth it? Well it's convinced me.
Actually Genghis's thread about where new aircraft come from have clinched it - Cessna & Piper are bleeding to death, and rightly so.
Long live progress
PS: Does an SFC of 0.45 sound right for a Rotax 912?
Last edited by Confabulous; 26th Jan 2005 at 12:47.
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Confabulous
This is where I have to pipe in with my 5p's worth. None of your micro-lights or whatever you class them as will compete with a Bonanza in any area, except perhaps fuel burn. Draggy airframe - nonsense, How about 167knts @75%, I dont call that draggy.
I did once consider a Vans, very nice they are too, almost as fast as the Beech, but will only carry two, you have to build it yourself and not certified for flight in IMC.
Back to the costs of ownership. You are looking at 15-17K per year to fly 100 hours and that doesnt allow for anything major going wrong and also doesnt allow for the purchase costs. If you are financing, then the cheapest way is to increase the mortgage.
This is where I have to pipe in with my 5p's worth. None of your micro-lights or whatever you class them as will compete with a Bonanza in any area, except perhaps fuel burn. Draggy airframe - nonsense, How about 167knts @75%, I dont call that draggy.
I did once consider a Vans, very nice they are too, almost as fast as the Beech, but will only carry two, you have to build it yourself and not certified for flight in IMC.
Back to the costs of ownership. You are looking at 15-17K per year to fly 100 hours and that doesnt allow for anything major going wrong and also doesnt allow for the purchase costs. If you are financing, then the cheapest way is to increase the mortgage.
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You may have 10 C152s but you won't get a classy girlie to get inside any of them
I've visions of you flying with a new supermodel each weekend, while showing them how much still it takes to follow the little line on your fancy new gps
If you manage to find twins (supermodels not airplanes) and need someone to sub for you, would you give me a call???
dp
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Flyboy,
You have point, the Bonanza has an efficient airframe and is a fast cruiser - I wasn't really counting the F33 but didn't mention it. Yes, it's a great aircraft, no doubt about it! Unfortunately, as we know, the Bonanza is pretty expensive to buy, operate, maintain and insure, as the £15k pa figure you pointed out.
The difference in speeds (110 v 167) is not a lot when you consider that neither of them with be doing very long distance flight - maybe 600nm max - I don't know what the F33's range is at LRC. GA flying is not really for people who are in a hurry anyway.
Personally, I know many people who would rather fly at 110kts for an 8lph fuel burn then 167kts for circa 40 - 50lph - the maths just doesn't work out. And for the aircraft I'm quoting (the MCR4S) it's a 4 seater Group A aircraft.
I'd be the first to say I don't make enough money to buy a Bonanza - but what's the point when I can have an aircraft that can fly 500 hrs a year for the Bonanza's 100 hrs for far less, while having enough range to fly1000nm+ with reserves.
MCR4S
Cost £35,000
Cruise 110kts
Fuel burn 8lph (long range)
Op costs (PA) @£2,000
Range 1200nm + res
Bonanza
£150,000
167kts
40lph (GAMI'd)
@£15000
1000nm?
I know which one I'd choose.
Note: I mean no offence by saying all this, it just makes sense from an economic perspective. Why don't more people stay in aviation? ecause they have to tangle with Cessna, Piper & Beech. Also I'd trust my life to something I built, but might have nagging doubts when a profit-strapped corporation built it.
Conf
You have point, the Bonanza has an efficient airframe and is a fast cruiser - I wasn't really counting the F33 but didn't mention it. Yes, it's a great aircraft, no doubt about it! Unfortunately, as we know, the Bonanza is pretty expensive to buy, operate, maintain and insure, as the £15k pa figure you pointed out.
The difference in speeds (110 v 167) is not a lot when you consider that neither of them with be doing very long distance flight - maybe 600nm max - I don't know what the F33's range is at LRC. GA flying is not really for people who are in a hurry anyway.
Personally, I know many people who would rather fly at 110kts for an 8lph fuel burn then 167kts for circa 40 - 50lph - the maths just doesn't work out. And for the aircraft I'm quoting (the MCR4S) it's a 4 seater Group A aircraft.
I'd be the first to say I don't make enough money to buy a Bonanza - but what's the point when I can have an aircraft that can fly 500 hrs a year for the Bonanza's 100 hrs for far less, while having enough range to fly1000nm+ with reserves.
MCR4S
Cost £35,000
Cruise 110kts
Fuel burn 8lph (long range)
Op costs (PA) @£2,000
Range 1200nm + res
Bonanza
£150,000
167kts
40lph (GAMI'd)
@£15000
1000nm?
I know which one I'd choose.
Note: I mean no offence by saying all this, it just makes sense from an economic perspective. Why don't more people stay in aviation? ecause they have to tangle with Cessna, Piper & Beech. Also I'd trust my life to something I built, but might have nagging doubts when a profit-strapped corporation built it.
Conf
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All very interesting - but nobody has pointed out to Chequeredflag that he's going at this the wrong way.
Don't start with a sum of money that you want to spend on an aircraft because, we all know, once a total is stated that is going to be spent!
The best starting point is to write a "mission profile". What sort of flying do you want to do? How many people? How much "stuff"? How far? How often? Where will you keep it? Who will look after it?
If you want to spend your time upside-down and develop piles, there's no point buying a Cherokee.
If your local airfield has no covered parking , there's no point buying a ragwing.
If you want to take the family to the riviera for a week at a time, a C150 will be useless.
IFR or VFR?
When you have figured out what physical type of aircraft you want, how many seats, range, cruise, equipment etc - then you can list the suitable makes/models and research the purchase price.
Ask on here for specifics, by all means. Most people will tell you about insurance, parking, labour rates and common maintenance areas for aircraft types.
At the end of all this you will know:
a/ what you need
b/ a purchase price range
c/ an annual running budget (range)
d/ if you can afford it!
If d = NO then you can look for other solutions; groups, rentals etc.
Don't start with a sum of money that you want to spend on an aircraft because, we all know, once a total is stated that is going to be spent!
The best starting point is to write a "mission profile". What sort of flying do you want to do? How many people? How much "stuff"? How far? How often? Where will you keep it? Who will look after it?
If you want to spend your time upside-down and develop piles, there's no point buying a Cherokee.
If your local airfield has no covered parking , there's no point buying a ragwing.
If you want to take the family to the riviera for a week at a time, a C150 will be useless.
IFR or VFR?
When you have figured out what physical type of aircraft you want, how many seats, range, cruise, equipment etc - then you can list the suitable makes/models and research the purchase price.
Ask on here for specifics, by all means. Most people will tell you about insurance, parking, labour rates and common maintenance areas for aircraft types.
At the end of all this you will know:
a/ what you need
b/ a purchase price range
c/ an annual running budget (range)
d/ if you can afford it!
If d = NO then you can look for other solutions; groups, rentals etc.
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Threads like this really make me wonder just exactly what people do for a living:
1) To have the time to post so prolific
2) To be able to set aside £15 - £20K pa for the joy of flight
Makes me feel a real pauper in my one third share microlight - we examine the expenditure of every last penny even though it's split three ways.
Ah well - I wonder if it a roll over on the lottery next week
1) To have the time to post so prolific
2) To be able to set aside £15 - £20K pa for the joy of flight
Makes me feel a real pauper in my one third share microlight - we examine the expenditure of every last penny even though it's split three ways.
Ah well - I wonder if it a roll over on the lottery next week
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Oh dear that is not a very good argument
Confabulous
This is a daft argument with the greatest of respect to you. People do not buy most things in life because of economics. Most people easily recognise that a Skoda is a better value car than a Porsche but if you could afford the Porsche would you still be trying to convince us that the Skoda is the best option.
In my experience in life (and I dont mean to offend anyone here) the people who tell you over and over again that the cheaper option is the best cannot afford the more expensive option (again not their problem and no offense is meant here) but if they could afford the Bonanza or perhaps a Cirrus they would buy it at the drop of a hat. If I could afford a TBM700 I would be on my way to the Socata factory to pick my paint scheme but I cant so I have to stick with my A36!
Transfer that to other areas of life. Take a Sony Plasma screen (£4000) instead of the Schneider 28 inch wide screen from Asda for £249.00. You can still watch Match of the Day on either but I know which one I would prefer and indeed most people are the same.
It isnt all about economics is what I am saying. My Bonanza will do 167 knots at 15US but it will also do 120 knots at 9US but I still go fast.
Buy the best you can afford in life, not necessarily the most expensive, but certainly not the cheapest. That is what I like to do. I cant afford the plane I would like but I bought the best one I could afford for the money I had available and I can assure you it gives me and my family loads of pleasure.
This is a daft argument with the greatest of respect to you. People do not buy most things in life because of economics. Most people easily recognise that a Skoda is a better value car than a Porsche but if you could afford the Porsche would you still be trying to convince us that the Skoda is the best option.
In my experience in life (and I dont mean to offend anyone here) the people who tell you over and over again that the cheaper option is the best cannot afford the more expensive option (again not their problem and no offense is meant here) but if they could afford the Bonanza or perhaps a Cirrus they would buy it at the drop of a hat. If I could afford a TBM700 I would be on my way to the Socata factory to pick my paint scheme but I cant so I have to stick with my A36!
Transfer that to other areas of life. Take a Sony Plasma screen (£4000) instead of the Schneider 28 inch wide screen from Asda for £249.00. You can still watch Match of the Day on either but I know which one I would prefer and indeed most people are the same.
It isnt all about economics is what I am saying. My Bonanza will do 167 knots at 15US but it will also do 120 knots at 9US but I still go fast.
Buy the best you can afford in life, not necessarily the most expensive, but certainly not the cheapest. That is what I like to do. I cant afford the plane I would like but I bought the best one I could afford for the money I had available and I can assure you it gives me and my family loads of pleasure.