Flying in Western USA
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david viewing..... Hopefully on the days I have planned to be out at the GC the weather will be good enough to go. We are booked in at the Holiday Inn near the airport. Does anyone know the rough over night costs at KGCN? I believe that GC airlines run the FBO so i will contact them in advance. BTW Your website is very useful, thanks for that!
Is it worthwhile to purchase a Garmin GPSMAP 96 or maybe even a 196? We are talking a fair bit of money here but the GPS could provide an excellent tool for back up nav and avoiding the chance of busting airspace etc What are the added costs to buying one, software for USA, aerials etc ?
Cheers
JAS
Is it worthwhile to purchase a Garmin GPSMAP 96 or maybe even a 196? We are talking a fair bit of money here but the GPS could provide an excellent tool for back up nav and avoiding the chance of busting airspace etc What are the added costs to buying one, software for USA, aerials etc ?
Cheers
JAS
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ATC are under no obligation to provide VFR vectors in Class E, and funnily enough in Class E you are under no obligation to follow them even if they did. That's controversial, but you would be foolish not to listen to ATC unless you had a much better reason not to. If you want vectors you can say 'Will Accept Vectors' and they will magically start to arrive. ATC will bend over backwards to make sure you are given what you want, it's not often they say they are too busy, and when they do they will usually apologise and give you another frequency and/or time to try later.
In Class B, C, & D you have to do what you are told. Not all Class D have radar but B and C do, and you will find B and C controllers more likely to use it to move you around. Class D in SOCAL will have radar usually fed off some approach facility. You need to talk to the controller in charge of the C or D airspace before you can enter, talking with center using flight following does not allow you into C or D.
Top tip: if calling up blind just say 'Podunk Approach, N12345, VFR Request' and let them get back, they can be busy and don't want to hear your whole story at once. No problem prodding them every minute if they don't come back.
If you are renting out of somewhere in SOCAL, as part of your checkout get them to take you through all the ATC interactions you will have to make. It's pretty simple stuff, you can also listen to many US based tower/approach frequencies on the Net to get a hang of things.
Weather in Jan/Feb should be great for VFR, but there is some strange wet weather around right now in the SW, bit of a weird winter.
Again, all you need is a Garmin 12XL. A UK one will do fine, lat/long works the same in both places....
In Class B, C, & D you have to do what you are told. Not all Class D have radar but B and C do, and you will find B and C controllers more likely to use it to move you around. Class D in SOCAL will have radar usually fed off some approach facility. You need to talk to the controller in charge of the C or D airspace before you can enter, talking with center using flight following does not allow you into C or D.
Top tip: if calling up blind just say 'Podunk Approach, N12345, VFR Request' and let them get back, they can be busy and don't want to hear your whole story at once. No problem prodding them every minute if they don't come back.
If you are renting out of somewhere in SOCAL, as part of your checkout get them to take you through all the ATC interactions you will have to make. It's pretty simple stuff, you can also listen to many US based tower/approach frequencies on the Net to get a hang of things.
Weather in Jan/Feb should be great for VFR, but there is some strange wet weather around right now in the SW, bit of a weird winter.
Again, all you need is a Garmin 12XL. A UK one will do fine, lat/long works the same in both places....
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ADP said that the check out will go through all the required ATC interaction etc So that should take some of the weight off my mind. I guess I will be slightly apprehensive until I am used to the area. I only have 83 hrs logged with Night and IMC privileges so this is a big adventure for me. I don't plan to do anything daft, just stay within my own capabilities and not compromise safety.
Thanks for all the tips regarding airspace, I passed my PPL in Florida and found ATC excellent there. But this is a different ball game!
What would I have to buy extra to operate the 12 xl in the US safely? They look to be around 190 ish to buy.
A 196 is about 478 GBP all in and includes yoke clip, external aerial etc
Thanks
JAS
Thanks for all the tips regarding airspace, I passed my PPL in Florida and found ATC excellent there. But this is a different ball game!
What would I have to buy extra to operate the 12 xl in the US safely? They look to be around 190 ish to buy.
A 196 is about 478 GBP all in and includes yoke clip, external aerial etc
Thanks
JAS
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When departing a Class C airport you would normally call up clearance delivery if they have one or ground if not and request Class charlie services or VFR flight following, for example:
"John Wayne Clearance, N12345 is a P28A slant golf at Signature with bravo, request Class charlie services from 19L"
or
"John Wayne Clearance, N12345 is a P28A slant golf at signature, request VFR flight following to Las Vegas at 9500 from 19L"
They will then issue a clearance along the lines of:
"N12345 after departure, make a left turn to 170°, (climb and maintain 5500) sqwark 4465 departure frequency is 127.2"
You then request taxy as usual and after takeoff you will be told to "contact departure". There is no need for all this phacer stuff, you simply switch to departure frequency and tell them "Socal departure, N12345 2000 for 5500" and they will then give some other instructions like "Radar contact, resume own navigation, climb and maintain 9500".
Actually this procedure works from many class D airports as well (Long Beach springs to mind) especially near major airports like LAX. Just call clearance and tell them you want VFR flight following to wherever before take off, then you get handed straight to the departure controller once you have departed. Usefull for ensuring you don't bust airspace, or hit anyone else
EDIT: I just read ypou passed the PPL in FLA....so most of this stuff you should know anyway....cheers
"John Wayne Clearance, N12345 is a P28A slant golf at Signature with bravo, request Class charlie services from 19L"
or
"John Wayne Clearance, N12345 is a P28A slant golf at signature, request VFR flight following to Las Vegas at 9500 from 19L"
They will then issue a clearance along the lines of:
"N12345 after departure, make a left turn to 170°, (climb and maintain 5500) sqwark 4465 departure frequency is 127.2"
You then request taxy as usual and after takeoff you will be told to "contact departure". There is no need for all this phacer stuff, you simply switch to departure frequency and tell them "Socal departure, N12345 2000 for 5500" and they will then give some other instructions like "Radar contact, resume own navigation, climb and maintain 9500".
Actually this procedure works from many class D airports as well (Long Beach springs to mind) especially near major airports like LAX. Just call clearance and tell them you want VFR flight following to wherever before take off, then you get handed straight to the departure controller once you have departed. Usefull for ensuring you don't bust airspace, or hit anyone else
EDIT: I just read ypou passed the PPL in FLA....so most of this stuff you should know anyway....cheers
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I've flown with ADP before and most of their aircraft had working LORAN which is pretty accurate for a simple Lat/Lon so no GPS should be required. US maps have very clear lat/lon grids marked on them for quick reference. I flew around California/Nevada during Feb/Mar time and mountain flying never seemed a problem due to lack of any wind. Haze was always the biggest problem.
Bullhead city as already mentioned is a good base to avoid the smog of LA. Its got an very interesting steep taxi way! The only time performance seemed lacking was taking off from Grand Canyon towards the South (Density Altitude was 8000') and the climb out matched the rising ground below for the first 3 minutes, that was just the 2 of us. You can always plan your high altitude airfield visits early morning or at night when its cooler for extra safety. Just about every airfield there is available 24 hours with pilot activated runway lights.
Bullhead city as already mentioned is a good base to avoid the smog of LA. Its got an very interesting steep taxi way! The only time performance seemed lacking was taking off from Grand Canyon towards the South (Density Altitude was 8000') and the climb out matched the rising ground below for the first 3 minutes, that was just the 2 of us. You can always plan your high altitude airfield visits early morning or at night when its cooler for extra safety. Just about every airfield there is available 24 hours with pilot activated runway lights.
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Don't buy a GPS and then try to change the database, it doesn't work out. Buy a GPS with a database of the area you are going to fly in.
What part of the country are you? Anywhere near Brighton?
What part of the country are you? Anywhere near Brighton?
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From what I understand, there is a hardware and a software data base. Essentally that means that if you use a UK GPS with americas software data base then you don't get to see useful bits like lakes and shorelines. I'm no expert but a guy did think that his UK Garmin I think it was would work ok in the USA with a software database update of the americas and it wasn't very satisfactory. If you change your location to a specific one, somebody living closer might contact you to let you borrow their americas GPS
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Sounds complex, does anyone know exactly how I would configure a Garmin 196 bought in the UK to operate in the Western USA? I will have to read up about this, but if anyone who has experience can help,that would be great!!
The 96C is not an option as by the time you add all the extras on, it is more expensive than a 196. Colour would be great, but is not really an option. I would like a big screen for clarity and certainly can not afford the 296 so a 196 seems best. It would seem that the Pilot 111 is being phased out so that is not an option unless cheap second hand. The 96 b/w looks ok, but the screen does seem small. I may aswell invest in something half decent
Cheers
JAS
The 96C is not an option as by the time you add all the extras on, it is more expensive than a 196. Colour would be great, but is not really an option. I would like a big screen for clarity and certainly can not afford the 296 so a 196 seems best. It would seem that the Pilot 111 is being phased out so that is not an option unless cheap second hand. The 96 b/w looks ok, but the screen does seem small. I may aswell invest in something half decent
Cheers
JAS
Last edited by Just another student; 21st Jan 2005 at 01:23.
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Was it just this morning that I read
You don't need a bloody GPS to do all the work for you, you are flying VFR! Get a cheap bottom of the line 5 year old piece of junk from ebay.co.uk, program your route lat/long waypoints into it and just use it to make sure you aren't totally lost!
As for GPS...... I wish I could afford one as back up! I intend to really nail VFR planning etc hopefully that will stand me in good stead for my CPL! It does please me to see so many VOR's and NDB's on the charts though!
You don't need a bloody GPS to do all the work for you, you are flying VFR! Get a cheap bottom of the line 5 year old piece of junk from ebay.co.uk, program your route lat/long waypoints into it and just use it to make sure you aren't totally lost!
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I often end up contradicting myself 
sorry
The more and more you think about something the more you tend to persuade yourself its the right thing to do. I had never really considered using a gps to be honest, I assumed they would be totally out of reach financially.
"As for GPS...... I wish I could afford one as back up! I intend to really nail VFR planning etc hopefully that will stand me in good stead for my CPL! It does please me to see so many VOR's and NDB's on the charts though!"
That still stands, I really want to improve my VFR work not only as it makes up substantial part of the CPL but it makes you a better Pilot. I have a tendency to just track VOR-VOR NDB-NDB, I want to get out of that habit.
Is cheap always the best option? Or is it better to get something I can use later on aswell that is not so out of date?
Cheers guys
sorryThe more and more you think about something the more you tend to persuade yourself its the right thing to do. I had never really considered using a gps to be honest, I assumed they would be totally out of reach financially.
"As for GPS...... I wish I could afford one as back up! I intend to really nail VFR planning etc hopefully that will stand me in good stead for my CPL! It does please me to see so many VOR's and NDB's on the charts though!"
That still stands, I really want to improve my VFR work not only as it makes up substantial part of the CPL but it makes you a better Pilot. I have a tendency to just track VOR-VOR NDB-NDB, I want to get out of that habit.
Is cheap always the best option? Or is it better to get something I can use later on aswell that is not so out of date?
Cheers guys
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Just echoing what others have already said by now, but...
I made a similar trip over there about this time last year (late February), also in a 180hp Archer. No problems with the aircraft performance, particularly as the weather was quite bad and the temperature not too high - (low 60's in Phoenix, low 40's at GCN - there was snow on the ground). We actually got stuck in Las Vegas for a day due to seriously crappity weather and had to cancel the planned trip out west to Death Valley due to snow storms over the mountains. Even if the weather had been hotter, performance wasn't an issue as of the places I went - even the smallest of 'unmanned' airports had around 4000ft of tarmac - long by my standards.
Departure from KGCN was the most challenging we had, performance wise. It's a very long runway, but the climbout is over trees in all directions with no clear place to make a forced landing. At perhaps 400ft per minute (2-up), I was quite a distance from the field before I felt truly comfortable. The FBO at GCN is adequate, but nothing more, with no real facilities or even room to do proper flight planning. Fuel was understandably expensive too.
I wouldn't worry too much about the VFR corridors over the Canyon - so long as you've studied the chart, the landmarks are quite easy to spot - there are disinctively shaped ground features all over the place. When we were there, I made regular position reports but we didn't see or hear a single other aircraft (midweek, about lunch time if that makes a difference). 10,500ft (southbound) was no problem in the Archer - and after we cleared the special airspace I actually climbed up to about 12,000ft - just for the hell of it - and she still wanted to go higher.
If you're going to Vegas and want to avoid the high parking and fuel charges at McCarran, North Las Vegas (KVGT) provided excellent service including a free shuttle to downtown hotels (but not return). The 'Showboat' VFR transition takes you in from Hoover Dam, just south of McCarran before turning right into KVGT. If you do this, the controllers are very helpful, but BE CAREFUL with your assigned altitude - I was 'told off' for exceeeding altitude by about 70 feet - and there was an Embrear 140 passing about 200 or 300ft above us, so I can understand why. We deprted VGT to the north east under the control of Nellis Approach - they were very helpful and vectored us around their area as there was quite a bit of military traffic.
Whatever you choose to do - enjoy it (it'd be difficult not to) - and let us know how it goes - I'm happy to talk about this stuff all day (as you probably guessed by now), so PM my if you like.
Oh, and thanks again to David Viewing whos website was really useful in planning my trip - I'd just about decided I wasn't up to the Canyon overflight before I read his advice.
I made a similar trip over there about this time last year (late February), also in a 180hp Archer. No problems with the aircraft performance, particularly as the weather was quite bad and the temperature not too high - (low 60's in Phoenix, low 40's at GCN - there was snow on the ground). We actually got stuck in Las Vegas for a day due to seriously crappity weather and had to cancel the planned trip out west to Death Valley due to snow storms over the mountains. Even if the weather had been hotter, performance wasn't an issue as of the places I went - even the smallest of 'unmanned' airports had around 4000ft of tarmac - long by my standards.
Departure from KGCN was the most challenging we had, performance wise. It's a very long runway, but the climbout is over trees in all directions with no clear place to make a forced landing. At perhaps 400ft per minute (2-up), I was quite a distance from the field before I felt truly comfortable. The FBO at GCN is adequate, but nothing more, with no real facilities or even room to do proper flight planning. Fuel was understandably expensive too.
I wouldn't worry too much about the VFR corridors over the Canyon - so long as you've studied the chart, the landmarks are quite easy to spot - there are disinctively shaped ground features all over the place. When we were there, I made regular position reports but we didn't see or hear a single other aircraft (midweek, about lunch time if that makes a difference). 10,500ft (southbound) was no problem in the Archer - and after we cleared the special airspace I actually climbed up to about 12,000ft - just for the hell of it - and she still wanted to go higher.
If you're going to Vegas and want to avoid the high parking and fuel charges at McCarran, North Las Vegas (KVGT) provided excellent service including a free shuttle to downtown hotels (but not return). The 'Showboat' VFR transition takes you in from Hoover Dam, just south of McCarran before turning right into KVGT. If you do this, the controllers are very helpful, but BE CAREFUL with your assigned altitude - I was 'told off' for exceeeding altitude by about 70 feet - and there was an Embrear 140 passing about 200 or 300ft above us, so I can understand why. We deprted VGT to the north east under the control of Nellis Approach - they were very helpful and vectored us around their area as there was quite a bit of military traffic.
Whatever you choose to do - enjoy it (it'd be difficult not to) - and let us know how it goes - I'm happy to talk about this stuff all day (as you probably guessed by now), so PM my if you like.
Oh, and thanks again to David Viewing whos website was really useful in planning my trip - I'd just about decided I wasn't up to the Canyon overflight before I read his advice.
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Just two of us - maybe 400lb inc. bags.
You can see what I mean about the terrain from this photo (sorry about the scan quality) - we're well downwind and still less than 1000ft above the ground. That view is looking east on a left downwind after departing 03, by the way. A seriously long runway, but little choice should the worst happen once you're over the fence.
You can see what I mean about the terrain from this photo (sorry about the scan quality) - we're well downwind and still less than 1000ft above the ground. That view is looking east on a left downwind after departing 03, by the way. A seriously long runway, but little choice should the worst happen once you're over the fence.
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Regarding GCN, don't forget temperature is on your side and it's light by 6.45 now so plan early. Serious study of the POH called for! I'm sorry I forgot to get the parking charges but I doubt it's more than a few $. No landing fee. Worst thing about GCN is the taxis which take ages to come and charge $20 to the rim. Hopefully the Holiday has a pick-up?
I use an ancient Garmin 92 as backup with both an Americas and 'International' database on floppy disk. I swap the databases using the supplied cable when I get back. It's completely adequate for my purpose of:
Verifying VFR navigation
Confirming that you are about to land at the right airport
Giving a 'direct to' if the weather turns grotty
Allowing custom entry of waypoints like the corridors
Giving a position in Lat/Long should you need it in emergency
I'm happy to second what's been said about VGT. They are really helpful there. Best bet for accomodation is the 'Texas' just down the road but if you want to go to the strip they have a huge list of phone nos. and calls are free. You can usually get a better rate by calling a few on the day than booking ahead provided it's not a big convention week.
I use an ancient Garmin 92 as backup with both an Americas and 'International' database on floppy disk. I swap the databases using the supplied cable when I get back. It's completely adequate for my purpose of:
Verifying VFR navigation
Confirming that you are about to land at the right airport
Giving a 'direct to' if the weather turns grotty
Allowing custom entry of waypoints like the corridors
Giving a position in Lat/Long should you need it in emergency
I'm happy to second what's been said about VGT. They are really helpful there. Best bet for accomodation is the 'Texas' just down the road but if you want to go to the strip they have a huge list of phone nos. and calls are free. You can usually get a better rate by calling a few on the day than booking ahead provided it's not a big convention week.
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I contacted KGCN, they don't charge for aircraft parking which is amazing! I don't go out to the GC until the 10th Feb so I have some time to get hold of the Archer POH and start number crunching! GC is possibly the only hot and high (so to speak) airport we will be landing at, the rest I plan to bypass enroute. But again, this will all be sorted in the planning stage.
I am worried about getting out of the ground effect and into a safe climb
I would hate to miss out, but if it aint safe we won't go.
Cheers
I am worried about getting out of the ground effect and into a safe climb
I would hate to miss out, but if it aint safe we won't go.Cheers
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Hope I haven't given you an impression it wasn't safe by what I said above. The runway is HUGE - I just wanted to save taxi time (the ramp is right at the NE end) and departed from half way along which meant we were still quite low over the fence. For what it's worth I never actually had to do any serious performance calculations for the whole trip - it just wasn't hot enough to matter. At that time of year anywhere high up is quite cold.
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A good technique to assess your ability to get back into the air is when on downwind to land, put the A/C into takeoff configuration, apply full power and see how well she climbs. And don't forget correct leaning prior to takeoff at high altitude airports.
In my experience, 3 up in a reasonably good 180HP archer in that part of the USA should be ok at that time of year......(but don't take my word for it !)
In my experience, 3 up in a reasonably good 180HP archer in that part of the USA should be ok at that time of year......(but don't take my word for it !)
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The amount of times I have heard 200hp arrow, 2 up, and struggled to take off does worry me a little. But when people mention temps, they are much higher than the temps will be in early Feb ( I hope).
I will try and give myself as much runway as possible, generally if a runway is huge, it is for a reason LOL
I'm not scared as such, just apprehensive. I would rather be this way than take risks etc
If I get out there and it turns out that the wx allows me to land at places like Palm Springs etc then I will be chuffed, but I think its best that I wait and see?
Cheers
I will try and give myself as much runway as possible, generally if a runway is huge, it is for a reason LOL
I'm not scared as such, just apprehensive. I would rather be this way than take risks etc
If I get out there and it turns out that the wx allows me to land at places like Palm Springs etc then I will be chuffed, but I think its best that I wait and see?
Cheers
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I just wanted to save taxi time (the ramp is right at the NE end) and departed from half way along which meant we were still quite low over the fence.
I am worried about getting out of the ground effect and into a safe climb
Now that is what I want to hear, shows somebody is thinking about this.
Garmin 12XLs going on ebay.co.uk for £50 or less. I don't know why this one should go out of date, the shape of the earth isn't reported to be changing significantly and the satellites are being maintained for the forseeable future.
True, you don't need a GPS to navigate the Grand Canyon corridors, but why stress out about busting airspace a mile or two off your wingtip when you are supposed to be enjoying the view? The lat/long coordinates of the ends of the corridors are on the chart for a reason. Fly visually for the rest of the trip, but use your technological tools when it makes sense to do so.
And student, what's an NDB???
I am worried about getting out of the ground effect and into a safe climb
Now that is what I want to hear, shows somebody is thinking about this.
Garmin 12XLs going on ebay.co.uk for £50 or less. I don't know why this one should go out of date, the shape of the earth isn't reported to be changing significantly and the satellites are being maintained for the forseeable future.
True, you don't need a GPS to navigate the Grand Canyon corridors, but why stress out about busting airspace a mile or two off your wingtip when you are supposed to be enjoying the view? The lat/long coordinates of the ends of the corridors are on the chart for a reason. Fly visually for the rest of the trip, but use your technological tools when it makes sense to do so.
And student, what's an NDB???