Advice On Motor Gliders
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Wiltshire
Advice On Motor Gliders
I've been flying for over 25 years and have just about done it all. I've been very fortunate to have other people fund the majority of my flying (thank you all you tax payers!).
I've done rotary as well as fixed wing and you know, I really can't decide which is better. The majority of my recreational flying has been done on the standard 4 seat American SEP, but for the majority of the time, there was just me in the aircraft!
I have a share in an aircraft at the moment but having seen some of the newer motor gliders, I thought I might just move away from that arrangement and get my own motor glider. Why motor glider? Well, I love the feeling of just being airborne. I do not need to get to places at 140 kts and believe the motor glider probably represents some of the cheapest flying you can do. I seldom need to fly with anyone else (indeed when I need to I have access to several suitable aircraft). I never carry much kit and am not into inter continental excursions. Hangarage is not a problem and I have somewhere to fly in and out of.
I have never flown one (I plan to at my local gliding club shortly), but I thought I would canvass opinion on the pros and cons. You are usually brutally honest about these things so - what do you think? Is this a don't touch it with a bargepole or is it a sensible wheeze? I am happy to spend up to 30 grand.
I've done rotary as well as fixed wing and you know, I really can't decide which is better. The majority of my recreational flying has been done on the standard 4 seat American SEP, but for the majority of the time, there was just me in the aircraft!
I have a share in an aircraft at the moment but having seen some of the newer motor gliders, I thought I might just move away from that arrangement and get my own motor glider. Why motor glider? Well, I love the feeling of just being airborne. I do not need to get to places at 140 kts and believe the motor glider probably represents some of the cheapest flying you can do. I seldom need to fly with anyone else (indeed when I need to I have access to several suitable aircraft). I never carry much kit and am not into inter continental excursions. Hangarage is not a problem and I have somewhere to fly in and out of.
I have never flown one (I plan to at my local gliding club shortly), but I thought I would canvass opinion on the pros and cons. You are usually brutally honest about these things so - what do you think? Is this a don't touch it with a bargepole or is it a sensible wheeze? I am happy to spend up to 30 grand.
Suave yet Shallow
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: half way between the gutter and the stars.
Whilst I'm not in a position to talk about Motor Gliders, if you're thinking of spending upto £30K for an aircraft, there are plenty of PFA machines which can be bought for half that figure that still have cheap-as-chips running costs.
Austers, Jodels, Aeronca's, Taylorcraft, Cubs can all bring cheap & cheerful flying.
'twas just an idea for you.
TC (a PFA convert)
Austers, Jodels, Aeronca's, Taylorcraft, Cubs can all bring cheap & cheerful flying.
'twas just an idea for you.
TC (a PFA convert)
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
I have not flown any of the more expensive motor gliders, but the low cost ones tend to be poor gliders and poor aircraft. I would tend to agree with TC that some of the PFA fleet would do better at the same or lower cost. A Jodel, Aeronca or a Europa would all do the job within your price range.
Rod1
Rod1
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From: Wiltshire
Thanks. I already have a Europa! It's fun but I want to try something a little different. I don't think I want a heavy old motor glider but some of the newer ones look really interesting. (Lambada, Whisper aircraft of SA etc).
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From: Canada
If I were you, I would stay away from the low-performance two-seaters (e.g. Diamond Xtreme, Viviat, etc.), which are neither fish nor fowl and are essentially incapable of genuine soaring (for a contrary view, see "Motorgliders are the Best", Free Flight issue 5/03, p.17). You'd be much better off getting a single-seater with a small retractable engine; see generally "Flying Motorgliders", Free Flight issue 6/03, page 10.
If two seats are imperative, you need a Stemme, but you certainly won't get one of those for only £30K.
If two seats are imperative, you need a Stemme, but you certainly won't get one of those for only £30K.
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From: Canada
Hi Mike,
I presume he is an experienced soaring pilot (after all, he has "just about done it all").
If not, I'd suggest that prior to making any purchase decisions he should learn to fly unpowered sailplanes to at least a BGA Bronze C standard, with x-country endorsement.
Cheers,
MLS
I presume he is an experienced soaring pilot (after all, he has "just about done it all").
If not, I'd suggest that prior to making any purchase decisions he should learn to fly unpowered sailplanes to at least a BGA Bronze C standard, with x-country endorsement.
Cheers,
MLS
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
MLS-12D,
He makes no mention of it. I don't think he has. We'll see when he answers.
I suspect that he doesn't need to spend £30.000. A Fournier would serve him well for what he seems to want to do.
Thank you for the links to 'Free Flight', I hadn't come across it before and it's good.
Mike W
He makes no mention of it. I don't think he has. We'll see when he answers.
I suspect that he doesn't need to spend £30.000. A Fournier would serve him well for what he seems to want to do.
Thank you for the links to 'Free Flight', I hadn't come across it before and it's good.
Mike W
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Canada
You are most welcome.
Free access to all back issues of Free Flight are available here. There is also an index feature that you can use to search out articles on particular issues.
I wish the SSA's Soaring was also available free of charge (although IMHO it is not as good a publication as Free Flight); and the BGA should make Sailplane and Gliding equally accessible. After all, most soaring issues are universal, and we should all help one another out. Perhaps it will happen one day; until then, at least an on-line index of articles in Soaring is available, which is (slightly) better than nothing.
I suppose a Monnett Monerai might be another cheap motorglider that might suit someone with limited soaring ambitions.
Free access to all back issues of Free Flight are available here. There is also an index feature that you can use to search out articles on particular issues.
I wish the SSA's Soaring was also available free of charge (although IMHO it is not as good a publication as Free Flight); and the BGA should make Sailplane and Gliding equally accessible. After all, most soaring issues are universal, and we should all help one another out. Perhaps it will happen one day; until then, at least an on-line index of articles in Soaring is available, which is (slightly) better than nothing.
I suppose a Monnett Monerai might be another cheap motorglider that might suit someone with limited soaring ambitions.
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From: South Norfolk, England
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Wiltshire
Thanks guys. Yes, just about done it all does suggest that I haven't done a few things! Gliding is one of them. As I say, I have the opportunity to fly at my local gliding club (.8 of a mile from my front door!) so I intend to do just that. Can anyone point me in the direction of what the various glider qualifications mean?
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Anywhere
'A' certificate - first solo
'B' - Don't worry about it!
Bronze 'C' - 2 x 30 minute soaring flights, 50 solo launches, a field landing check and some form of test that encompasses necessary air law / general flying principles (It's basically a check to make sure you're safe to be let loose cross country)
Silver 'C' - 1000m height gain, 50 km cross country, 5 hour soaring flight (all can be done separately, not necessarily the same trip)
Gold 'C' - 3000m height gain, 300km cross country (see below), 5 hour soaring flight (normally signed up when you apply for the Silver above)
Diamonds - 5000m height gain, 500km cross country, 300km pre declared 'goal' flight (normally triangular - can be done as the Gold 'C' cross country also).
Be interested to know what you go for - might even be interested if you end up selling shares
'B' - Don't worry about it!
Bronze 'C' - 2 x 30 minute soaring flights, 50 solo launches, a field landing check and some form of test that encompasses necessary air law / general flying principles (It's basically a check to make sure you're safe to be let loose cross country)
Silver 'C' - 1000m height gain, 50 km cross country, 5 hour soaring flight (all can be done separately, not necessarily the same trip)
Gold 'C' - 3000m height gain, 300km cross country (see below), 5 hour soaring flight (normally signed up when you apply for the Silver above)
Diamonds - 5000m height gain, 500km cross country, 300km pre declared 'goal' flight (normally triangular - can be done as the Gold 'C' cross country also).
Be interested to know what you go for - might even be interested if you end up selling shares
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: UK
Hi all
CM may be a tad out of date (aren't we all: I'll be 40 this year!). There's now a Cross-Country Endorsement before they let you loose out of gliding range of your home site. See
http://www.gliding.co.uk/learningtog...adgesystem.htm
for the whole system explained.
Whatever you end up buying, the thrill of staying airborne using only the weather and your own skill and judgment takes some beating.
Gliding: for the pilot who has everything else ;-)
BW
CM may be a tad out of date (aren't we all: I'll be 40 this year!). There's now a Cross-Country Endorsement before they let you loose out of gliding range of your home site. See
http://www.gliding.co.uk/learningtog...adgesystem.htm
for the whole system explained.
Whatever you end up buying, the thrill of staying airborne using only the weather and your own skill and judgment takes some beating.
Gliding: for the pilot who has everything else ;-)
BW
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,212
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From: Anywhere
Cheers BW - didn't realise it was an actual requirement, just thought it was an additional certificate.
Here's a thought - what about someone with a Silver 'C' who doesn't have one (coming back to gliding after a long lay off), or someone who has a lot of cross country time powered? The requirements in terms of the 2 x 1 hour and 1 x 2 hour soaring flights before you can go cross country seem a little onerous to me, especially with the vagaries of UK weather. ( I think I had 1 flight over an hour and 1 over 2 hours before doing my 50km).
Here's a thought - what about someone with a Silver 'C' who doesn't have one (coming back to gliding after a long lay off), or someone who has a lot of cross country time powered? The requirements in terms of the 2 x 1 hour and 1 x 2 hour soaring flights before you can go cross country seem a little onerous to me, especially with the vagaries of UK weather. ( I think I had 1 flight over an hour and 1 over 2 hours before doing my 50km).
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Silvereagle,
Your situation is as I expected and therefore my (unqualified) advise is as follows.
Go and join your local gliding club. do not hide the fact that you are an experienced power pilot but do not expect to have a quick check ride and be sent off solo. Gliders are very different aeroplanes to anything you have flown before and you are going to have to seriously unlearn some very bad habits and learn some new techniques. I don't know which club you are going to join but please remember that there are probably NO paid employees and ALL the work is done by the members, that includes you. Gliding is (relatively) cash cheap but is definitely time expensive. At our club you are expected to be present to get the kit out or to put it away. It is not done to turn up late, have a trip and go away. Actually, if you do turn up late, your name will probably never get to the top of the flying list anyway. Training flights are usually done two or three at a time, assuming this is a winch launching site. once you have gone solo, things get a bit easier. There is usually a shorter list for the single seat aircraft and, if you buy into a syndicate, the list is one name long, you just have to wait for a launch.
Once you have done this and spent a fair time chatting to people who know more than you do about gliding and probably many other things, you will have a much better idea as to what you should be looking to buy.
You could go and buy a Touring Motorglider, do some difference training and go flying but you will be wasting a lot of potential. Tourers are not exceptionally good soaring aircraft but they do soar and the engine power is low so that intelligent use of thermals and other forms of lift can significantly improve the performance, and fun. I have a share in an SZD 45 Ogar Motorglider which has a better glide performance than the Olympia 2b in which I did my Silver C. You may find that your priorities change once you know and understand a bit more about gliding. If the soaring becomes more important, you may prefer to buy a self launching sailplane. This is the type which is really a fairly, or very, high performance glider with a retractable engine. It is not very effective as a powered cruiser but it does allow you to go gliding without any ground organisation, assuming you have somewhere to keep it in a rigged state.
Executive Summary:-
Go and do some Gliding.
Motorgliders are not Noddy aircraft that anyone can fly. You must get difference training. In my opinion, from the pure aircraft handling point of view, Touring motorgliders are more difficult to fly than your conventional SEP.
Good Luck
Mike W
Your situation is as I expected and therefore my (unqualified) advise is as follows.
Go and join your local gliding club. do not hide the fact that you are an experienced power pilot but do not expect to have a quick check ride and be sent off solo. Gliders are very different aeroplanes to anything you have flown before and you are going to have to seriously unlearn some very bad habits and learn some new techniques. I don't know which club you are going to join but please remember that there are probably NO paid employees and ALL the work is done by the members, that includes you. Gliding is (relatively) cash cheap but is definitely time expensive. At our club you are expected to be present to get the kit out or to put it away. It is not done to turn up late, have a trip and go away. Actually, if you do turn up late, your name will probably never get to the top of the flying list anyway. Training flights are usually done two or three at a time, assuming this is a winch launching site. once you have gone solo, things get a bit easier. There is usually a shorter list for the single seat aircraft and, if you buy into a syndicate, the list is one name long, you just have to wait for a launch.
Once you have done this and spent a fair time chatting to people who know more than you do about gliding and probably many other things, you will have a much better idea as to what you should be looking to buy.
You could go and buy a Touring Motorglider, do some difference training and go flying but you will be wasting a lot of potential. Tourers are not exceptionally good soaring aircraft but they do soar and the engine power is low so that intelligent use of thermals and other forms of lift can significantly improve the performance, and fun. I have a share in an SZD 45 Ogar Motorglider which has a better glide performance than the Olympia 2b in which I did my Silver C. You may find that your priorities change once you know and understand a bit more about gliding. If the soaring becomes more important, you may prefer to buy a self launching sailplane. This is the type which is really a fairly, or very, high performance glider with a retractable engine. It is not very effective as a powered cruiser but it does allow you to go gliding without any ground organisation, assuming you have somewhere to keep it in a rigged state.
Executive Summary:-
Go and do some Gliding.
Motorgliders are not Noddy aircraft that anyone can fly. You must get difference training. In my opinion, from the pure aircraft handling point of view, Touring motorgliders are more difficult to fly than your conventional SEP.
Good Luck
Mike W
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,198
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From: South Norfolk, England
Out of interest and as semi-hypothetical question. How does the law stand on owning and operating a glider outside of a club?
For instance. If I wished as a PPL A, to keep a glider on my farm strip and launch it from here, would I be outside the law?
I'm not looking for advice as to the sensibility of doing this, purely how it would stand from a legal point of view.
SS
For instance. If I wished as a PPL A, to keep a glider on my farm strip and launch it from here, would I be outside the law?
I'm not looking for advice as to the sensibility of doing this, purely how it would stand from a legal point of view.
SS
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
silvereagle: if you haven't done gliding, there is a huge gap in your flying experience. Good on you for recognizing that ... you will have lots of fun filling it!
I agree with Mike's advice, above.
You might want to obtain a copy of Derek Piggott's book, Gliding Safety, which has a helpful chapter on experienced powered pilots converting to gliders. Alternatively there is a complete book on the topic, but that would probably be overkill and, being written by an American (albeit an experienced and internationally recognized instructor), probably contains some information that is inapplicable to you in the UK. Piggott's book would be much better, especially as it contains great advice on various other topics and will remain useful after you have completed your basic gliding training.
This article is written for complete novices (vice converting power pilots), but will give you some idea of what you will experience at the soaring club.
To the best of my knowledge, a private glider is effectively no different from the legal status of other private aircraft and need not be operated within the structure of a club.
If you were in Canada, I would tell you that you require a valid Glider Pilot License to operate any glider (private or club); a PPL(A) is insufficient. But as the UK has no such license (which can be a small administrative headache for glider pilots hoping to fly outside of the UK), you should contact the BGA and ask them what you'll need to do to be 'legal' piloting gliders.
Finally, although I appreciate that you are "not looking for advice as to the sensibility of doing this", I can't help but add that IMHO soaring at a club is a lot better than doing your own thing at a private airstrip. You'll miss out on the social atmosphere and spirit of mutual assistance that prevails at any good gliding club. And of course you can't fly pure sailplanes (as opposed to motorgliders) out of a private field, unless you have a towplane or winch and someone to operate them.
I agree with Mike's advice, above.
You might want to obtain a copy of Derek Piggott's book, Gliding Safety, which has a helpful chapter on experienced powered pilots converting to gliders. Alternatively there is a complete book on the topic, but that would probably be overkill and, being written by an American (albeit an experienced and internationally recognized instructor), probably contains some information that is inapplicable to you in the UK. Piggott's book would be much better, especially as it contains great advice on various other topics and will remain useful after you have completed your basic gliding training.
This article is written for complete novices (vice converting power pilots), but will give you some idea of what you will experience at the soaring club.
Out of interest and as semi-hypothetical question. How does the law stand on owning and operating a glider outside of a club? If I wished as a PPL A, to keep a glider on my farm strip and launch it from here, would I be outside the law?
If you were in Canada, I would tell you that you require a valid Glider Pilot License to operate any glider (private or club); a PPL(A) is insufficient. But as the UK has no such license (which can be a small administrative headache for glider pilots hoping to fly outside of the UK), you should contact the BGA and ask them what you'll need to do to be 'legal' piloting gliders.
Finally, although I appreciate that you are "not looking for advice as to the sensibility of doing this", I can't help but add that IMHO soaring at a club is a lot better than doing your own thing at a private airstrip. You'll miss out on the social atmosphere and spirit of mutual assistance that prevails at any good gliding club. And of course you can't fly pure sailplanes (as opposed to motorgliders) out of a private field, unless you have a towplane or winch and someone to operate them.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
Thanks MLS
It's just an idea but I've nearly completed my Slingsby T31m motor glider conversion of a T31. I thought it might be fun to source another fuselage and use the wings to fly it occassionally as a two seat glider. Don't worry, I'm not a novice and have a Silver C (although it's been a while!). As for launching ... well let's just say, I have ways
It'll probably never happen BTW ... but it would be nice to know if it's possible.
SS
It's just an idea but I've nearly completed my Slingsby T31m motor glider conversion of a T31. I thought it might be fun to source another fuselage and use the wings to fly it occassionally as a two seat glider. Don't worry, I'm not a novice and have a Silver C (although it's been a while!). As for launching ... well let's just say, I have ways
It'll probably never happen BTW ... but it would be nice to know if it's possible.
SS
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 339
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Silvereagle,
Gliders with Oxford Gliding Club at Weston on the Green and the Ogar lives at Hinton in the Hedges. I'm sure we would be pleased to see you at Weston but Sandhill Farm is probably your best bet as it is so close. I think they operate basically weekends only as do we. Send me a PM if you need more info..
Mike W
Gliders with Oxford Gliding Club at Weston on the Green and the Ogar lives at Hinton in the Hedges. I'm sure we would be pleased to see you at Weston but Sandhill Farm is probably your best bet as it is so close. I think they operate basically weekends only as do we. Send me a PM if you need more info..
Mike W