Advice On Motor Gliders
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From: Witney
Silvereagle
Interesting hypothetical question which you asked about the independent operation of a glider.
The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders)
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.
The BGA issues annual glider CofA certification after a BGA inspector has checked the aircraft. I don't know whether the CofA would be legal outside the BGA/club environment. No CofA = no legal insurance etc etc.
To launch a glider you need a minimum of a tug or winch, operator for the above, plus someone to hold the wing, plus someone to signal to the operator.
And someone has to tow you off the strip when you've landed - it begins to sound like a club type organisation is necessary just to physically get it off the ground doesn't it?
None of the above applies to a motor glider which can self launch, either a "proper" sailplane with pop-up engine or a "long winged power aircraft" but they are covered by CAA regulation re pilot's licence, CofA, G-XXXX registration etc etc.
Interesting hypothetical question which you asked about the independent operation of a glider.
The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders)
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.
The BGA issues annual glider CofA certification after a BGA inspector has checked the aircraft. I don't know whether the CofA would be legal outside the BGA/club environment. No CofA = no legal insurance etc etc.
To launch a glider you need a minimum of a tug or winch, operator for the above, plus someone to hold the wing, plus someone to signal to the operator.
And someone has to tow you off the strip when you've landed - it begins to sound like a club type organisation is necessary just to physically get it off the ground doesn't it?
None of the above applies to a motor glider which can self launch, either a "proper" sailplane with pop-up engine or a "long winged power aircraft" but they are covered by CAA regulation re pilot's licence, CofA, G-XXXX registration etc etc.
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From: Canada
The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders).
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.
all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor
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From: West Wales UK.
Silvereagle might also as a qualified power pilot, observe the way glider people operate. Vis:
Do all the gliders have a radio? Do the glider pilots use it not just to talk to other gliding people but to the ATC services in the area they propose to fly? Given the wandering flight patterns of gliders, how do they minimise the possibility of collision with other airspace users?
MG:
Do all the gliders have a radio? Do the glider pilots use it not just to talk to other gliding people but to the ATC services in the area they propose to fly? Given the wandering flight patterns of gliders, how do they minimise the possibility of collision with other airspace users?
MG:
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From: Anywhere
Do all the gliders have a radio?
Do the glider pilots use it not just to talk to other gliding people but to the ATC services in the area they propose to fly?
Given the wandering flight patterns of gliders, how do they minimise the possibility of collision with other airspace users?
If you see a glider, chances are they saw you a lot earlier. If you don't see one the chances are they've still seen you.
And that's from all three viewpoints - ATCO, Glider Pilot and Powered Pilot.
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From: West Wales UK.
Thanks Chli Monster.
Nice to know the gliders will be looking out for other traffic.
But not sure I am reassured, if there are 40 + gliders at variable heights, and directions, not talking to ATC, and possibly ahead of me. Roll on mode "S" for ALL aircraft I say.
MG
Sorry to go on a bit particularly as this was debated at length on an earlier thread.
Nice to know the gliders will be looking out for other traffic.
But not sure I am reassured, if there are 40 + gliders at variable heights, and directions, not talking to ATC, and possibly ahead of me. Roll on mode "S" for ALL aircraft I say.
MG
Sorry to go on a bit particularly as this was debated at length on an earlier thread.
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From: Anywhere
But not sure I am reassured, if there are 40 + gliders at variable heights, and directions, not talking to ATC, and possibly ahead of me. Roll on mode "S" for ALL aircraft I say.
From the ATC point of view - you can't avoid what you can't see. If you don't like that then get an IR and fly permanently in Controlled Airspace where it's a known traffic environment. Think yourself lucky the UK attempts to provide some form of service in Class 'G' airspace - most others either say 'you're on your own' or make it Class 'E'. That would be an end to people flying IFR without a clearance which you can do in Class 'G'.
Listen to London info on a good summers weekend - the frequency's clogged up with a lot of transmissions which are pointless and unnecessary, stopping them from doing their proper job by idiots who think talking to someone alleviates them from the responsibilities of good airmanship.
From the Mode 'S' point of view - again, it wouldn't achieve a great deal. Is your aircraft going to be equipped with TCAS II v7 or better? I doubt it. So once again you're relying on the guy on the ground to point it out to you. What if there isn't one? (I can think of several big holes in the area you fly in - especially at weekends).
You have to understand the nature and supply of ATC in this country before you can sweeping statements like those above. If you're not in that position it's best to say nothing I'm afraid. Also if you have some axe to grind about the gliding community maybe looking at your own 'modus operandii' first and seeing if there are any flaws there is a better way to start.
(Apologies for taking the thread off topic)
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From: West Wales UK.
Thanks again Chli Monster.
Putting transponders on gliders is going to be a problem. But new lightweight equipment with a TCAS function is part of the mode 'S' concept for the future.
ATC black holes exist all over Africa, and it was our practice in BOAC/BA to make "all station" calls on the local published VHF frequency, or the bush frequency (usually 123.45) This enabled the various airlines to coordinate our flight levels, and cross check our positions without any ATC input. In the "black" areas we would make all station calls at 10 min intervals, and listen out continually. Same practice flying in S Africa on PA 28s, only this time the "bush frequency" is published on the charts.
My point is that in uncontrolled airspace with no ATC service, then ALL aircraft should be listening out for, and making all station calls. So that we ALL have adequate situational awareness. Perhaps the new CAA safetycom 135.475 should be used for this.
MG
Putting transponders on gliders is going to be a problem. But new lightweight equipment with a TCAS function is part of the mode 'S' concept for the future.
ATC black holes exist all over Africa, and it was our practice in BOAC/BA to make "all station" calls on the local published VHF frequency, or the bush frequency (usually 123.45) This enabled the various airlines to coordinate our flight levels, and cross check our positions without any ATC input. In the "black" areas we would make all station calls at 10 min intervals, and listen out continually. Same practice flying in S Africa on PA 28s, only this time the "bush frequency" is published on the charts.
My point is that in uncontrolled airspace with no ATC service, then ALL aircraft should be listening out for, and making all station calls. So that we ALL have adequate situational awareness. Perhaps the new CAA safetycom 135.475 should be used for this.
MG
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From: Canada
Sorry to go on a bit particularly as this was debated at length on an earlier thread.
I've said it before, but as this unpleasant can of worms has been re-opened, I'll say it again: no one who does not have substantial experience of both powered and soaring flight is in any position to intelligently comment upon (far less criticize) either of those two forms of recreational aviation.
Do all the gliders have a radio? Do the glider pilots use it not just to talk to other gliding people but to the ATC services in the area they propose to fly? Given the wandering flight patterns of gliders, how do they minimise the possibility of collision with other airspace users?
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Mike Godsell,
To operate in the way you envisage, every aircraft needs a crew of four. One to fly the aircraft, one Radio Operator to transmit position reports on the "Bush Frequency" and the airfield frequencies of all nearby airfields and listen out for replies. I guess a multiple radio fit is needed too. One Navigator to update the Radio Operator with the current position, speed, track and alt. and to plot the reported positions of any replies the radio operator has managed to decipher and an Obsever to assist with lookout.
A Radio is not an anti Collision device.
Mike W
To operate in the way you envisage, every aircraft needs a crew of four. One to fly the aircraft, one Radio Operator to transmit position reports on the "Bush Frequency" and the airfield frequencies of all nearby airfields and listen out for replies. I guess a multiple radio fit is needed too. One Navigator to update the Radio Operator with the current position, speed, track and alt. and to plot the reported positions of any replies the radio operator has managed to decipher and an Obsever to assist with lookout.
A Radio is not an anti Collision device.
Mike W
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: UK
MLS-12D posted 20th January 2005 16:22
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quote:
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The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders).
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to be excessively negative, since I have not personally flown in the BGA environment and there may be hidden advantages of which I am aware. However, the 'rule' you describe sounds unreasonably oppressive.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the above is accurate, it would seem that the BGA does not distinguish between the judgment of a novice student pilot and a triple diamond experienced soaring pilot ... which would self-evidently be a ridiculous policy.
[end of quote from MLS-12D].
1. Gliders and glider pilots are exempt from many parts of the UK Air Navigation Order, hence no need for registration, CofA, or pilot's licence. Hence it is perfectly legal to acquire and fly a glider from a private airstrip with no CofA, no insurance, no registration, and no pilot's licence. Of course, certain laws must be followed - no use of radio unless meeting the correct regulations, no entry into controlled airspace except in accordance, etc.
At any point in time there is nearly always one or another UK gliding operation not a member of the BGA, and that is quite legal. (Whether wise is a different matter - the question did not ask that, and I am not going to be drawn into it here.) I know of one such non-BGA yet AIUI legal operation at present.
2. The CAA did not delegate gliding to the BGA, it exempted gliders and their pilots from some aspects of the law when drafting it, and Parliament passed the law that way.
It may or may not be true that the CAA did it because they were satisfied that the BGA maintains a good enough control on the whole.
3. The BGA is the sum total of its member clubs. If they are satisfied that their rules are sensible, it is not for non-members to say they are not. If you join, you follow. If you won't follow the rules, don't join, or else risk being thrown out (which has happened).
4. "all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor". Rubbish - the writer quoted has misled MLS 12D. (If anyone says to the contrary, please quote chapter and verse. I am a former editor of "Laws and Rules for Glider Pilots", published by the BGA, and I know of no such blanket prohibition.)
Of course, certain aspects of flying at BGA member clubs have to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor - it would be irresponsible not to. How would you like to be trained, or have your kids flown, by someone who is self taught and not qualified? Outside the BGA, you can. Inside, you have to follow its rules.
5. " . . . the BGA does not distinguish between the judgment of a novice student pilot and a triple diamond experienced soaring pilot ...". Oh yes it does. Experienced pilots can fly without the presence of an instructor if their own gliding club permits it. No BGA rule forbids that. Some individual gliding clubs might - again, if you join a club you agree to its rules. Or get them changed from within, should enough others agree with you.
6. EASA is going to change some of the above anyway. It will add nothing to BGA gliding club safety IMHO, and a lot to costs, but it might make some non-BGA glider flying illegal - I don't know the details yet. And it may become true that certain things will be "derogated" (similar to, but AIUI not legally identical to "delegated") by the CAA to the BGA then - but not yet.
Hope that helps understanding somewhat.
Chris N.
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The government/CAA long ago delegated all responsibility for glider operation to the BGA. I don't know (doubt it) if there's any provision for non-BGA controlled sailplane operation (as distinct from hang gliders).
If you approached the BGA for permission they'd say "Form a club and pay us the annual fees, plus all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor" Cos that's the rule.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to be excessively negative, since I have not personally flown in the BGA environment and there may be hidden advantages of which I am aware. However, the 'rule' you describe sounds unreasonably oppressive.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the above is accurate, it would seem that the BGA does not distinguish between the judgment of a novice student pilot and a triple diamond experienced soaring pilot ... which would self-evidently be a ridiculous policy.
[end of quote from MLS-12D].
1. Gliders and glider pilots are exempt from many parts of the UK Air Navigation Order, hence no need for registration, CofA, or pilot's licence. Hence it is perfectly legal to acquire and fly a glider from a private airstrip with no CofA, no insurance, no registration, and no pilot's licence. Of course, certain laws must be followed - no use of radio unless meeting the correct regulations, no entry into controlled airspace except in accordance, etc.
At any point in time there is nearly always one or another UK gliding operation not a member of the BGA, and that is quite legal. (Whether wise is a different matter - the question did not ask that, and I am not going to be drawn into it here.) I know of one such non-BGA yet AIUI legal operation at present.
2. The CAA did not delegate gliding to the BGA, it exempted gliders and their pilots from some aspects of the law when drafting it, and Parliament passed the law that way.
It may or may not be true that the CAA did it because they were satisfied that the BGA maintains a good enough control on the whole.
3. The BGA is the sum total of its member clubs. If they are satisfied that their rules are sensible, it is not for non-members to say they are not. If you join, you follow. If you won't follow the rules, don't join, or else risk being thrown out (which has happened).
4. "all flying has to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor". Rubbish - the writer quoted has misled MLS 12D. (If anyone says to the contrary, please quote chapter and verse. I am a former editor of "Laws and Rules for Glider Pilots", published by the BGA, and I know of no such blanket prohibition.)
Of course, certain aspects of flying at BGA member clubs have to be supervised by a BGA rated instructor - it would be irresponsible not to. How would you like to be trained, or have your kids flown, by someone who is self taught and not qualified? Outside the BGA, you can. Inside, you have to follow its rules.
5. " . . . the BGA does not distinguish between the judgment of a novice student pilot and a triple diamond experienced soaring pilot ...". Oh yes it does. Experienced pilots can fly without the presence of an instructor if their own gliding club permits it. No BGA rule forbids that. Some individual gliding clubs might - again, if you join a club you agree to its rules. Or get them changed from within, should enough others agree with you.
6. EASA is going to change some of the above anyway. It will add nothing to BGA gliding club safety IMHO, and a lot to costs, but it might make some non-BGA glider flying illegal - I don't know the details yet. And it may become true that certain things will be "derogated" (similar to, but AIUI not legally identical to "delegated") by the CAA to the BGA then - but not yet.
Hope that helps understanding somewhat.
Chris N.
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From: South Norfolk, England
Hi Chris
Regarding EASA, have they stuck to their guns over making gliders and sailplanes comply to full airworthiness certification? If I recall they proposed to remove the BGA inspectorate system. I hope they haven't or it could be the end of gliding in the UK as we know it!
SS
Regarding EASA, have they stuck to their guns over making gliders and sailplanes comply to full airworthiness certification? If I recall they proposed to remove the BGA inspectorate system. I hope they haven't or it could be the end of gliding in the UK as we know it!
SS
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: West Wales UK.
Oh dear how easy it is to offend!
Intelligent use of a radio, giving GPS or map position, takes a few seconds, and situation awareness is updated for all who listen out.
I would like to go from A to B without hitting anything. But if there are a lot of gliders on route, without radios, without transponders, difficult to see at the best of times, and manoevering at variable altitudes, the chances of a midair seem high! No wonder glider pilots wear parachutes.
MG
Intelligent use of a radio, giving GPS or map position, takes a few seconds, and situation awareness is updated for all who listen out.
I would like to go from A to B without hitting anything. But if there are a lot of gliders on route, without radios, without transponders, difficult to see at the best of times, and manoevering at variable altitudes, the chances of a midair seem high! No wonder glider pilots wear parachutes.
MG
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From: South Norfolk, England
Yes it is quite easy to offend when you set out to do so.
What use is it to give out continually changing gps position when altitude and direction are also continually changing? Not to mention the airwave clutter from tens of gliders all giving similar approximates!
As previously mentioned by somebody else, most glider pilots fly by feel and maintain a constant lookout. The distraction of continually checking exact gps position to give blind radio calls might just add to the far more real risk of hitting other gliders sharing the same thermal (which is why they wear parachutes). And for what? to allow some PPL (who might just be in the area) to fly so wrapped up in himself that he can't be arsed look out of the window!
If you want to feel safe in a cocoon under the percieved protection of ATC, transponders, radios ect (basically anything other than your own effort), then fly IFR. Better still, stay on the ground in bed and hope your heart can take it!
SS
What use is it to give out continually changing gps position when altitude and direction are also continually changing? Not to mention the airwave clutter from tens of gliders all giving similar approximates!
As previously mentioned by somebody else, most glider pilots fly by feel and maintain a constant lookout. The distraction of continually checking exact gps position to give blind radio calls might just add to the far more real risk of hitting other gliders sharing the same thermal (which is why they wear parachutes). And for what? to allow some PPL (who might just be in the area) to fly so wrapped up in himself that he can't be arsed look out of the window!
If you want to feel safe in a cocoon under the percieved protection of ATC, transponders, radios ect (basically anything other than your own effort), then fly IFR. Better still, stay on the ground in bed and hope your heart can take it!
SS
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: UK
SS, the EASA situation is not entirely clear, but the latest I heard from the BGA is that it is intended to leave the present BGA inspectors with most of the capabilities they have now, but subject to more overseeing from outside the BGA than hitherto, and with some extra costs for the latter. If the CAA is able to derogate its supervisory powers to the BGA, with only occasional spot checks or something by the CAA itself (acting as the local branch of EASA, which I believe is all it is now), that will certainly help.
The latest I have heard limits what BGA inspectors and also glider owners can do compared with the BGA-only regime. Examples: I used to be able to fit, service or replace instruments, with only an inspector's signature required if I did something significantly different. Now only inspectors can. They used to be able to fit additional instruments etc. - now, at least one interpretation is that they have to seek modification approval from the glider manufacturer.
It is not yet set in concrete.
Mike G, your fears about collisions are understandable, but the figures do not support your apparent belief as to where the greatest danger lies. Most power collisions are with the ground, i.e. CFIT. Those with other flying things are mostly with other power. GA power/glider collisions are the least frequent of all - only about 3 in the UK in the last 30 years, at least one of which was in the circuit of a gliding site which the power pilot infringed.
Most glider collision are with other gliders. A few with powered aircraft are with glider tugs from the same site as the glider. The least frequent type is one with a powered aircraft nothing to do with gliding, i.e. the same 3 in 30 years.
Chris N.
The latest I have heard limits what BGA inspectors and also glider owners can do compared with the BGA-only regime. Examples: I used to be able to fit, service or replace instruments, with only an inspector's signature required if I did something significantly different. Now only inspectors can. They used to be able to fit additional instruments etc. - now, at least one interpretation is that they have to seek modification approval from the glider manufacturer.
It is not yet set in concrete.
Mike G, your fears about collisions are understandable, but the figures do not support your apparent belief as to where the greatest danger lies. Most power collisions are with the ground, i.e. CFIT. Those with other flying things are mostly with other power. GA power/glider collisions are the least frequent of all - only about 3 in the UK in the last 30 years, at least one of which was in the circuit of a gliding site which the power pilot infringed.
Most glider collision are with other gliders. A few with powered aircraft are with glider tugs from the same site as the glider. The least frequent type is one with a powered aircraft nothing to do with gliding, i.e. the same 3 in 30 years.
Chris N.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Canada
But if there are a lot of gliders on route, without radios, without transponders, difficult to see at the best of times, and manoevering at variable altitudes, the chances of a midair seem high!
What use is it to give out continually changing gps position when altitude and direction are also continually changing? Not to mention the airwave clutter from tens of gliders all giving similar approximates!
Excellent post shortstripper.
