Beware of Unscrupulous US Visa Advice
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Beware of Unscrupulous US Visa Advice
I'm in possession of emails from flight schools from the US who state that you do not need a visa to enter for PPL training.
This is INCORRECT. Take note of previous posts on pprune, and, having just spoken to the US embassy, you NEED a visa to enter for any type of training.
It has been suggested by "professionals" to enter on the Visa Waiver and then decide to enroll in your school, not mentioning anything about your real intentions to immigration. DO NOT DO THIS.
To all wannabes, like myself, you have been warned!
This is INCORRECT. Take note of previous posts on pprune, and, having just spoken to the US embassy, you NEED a visa to enter for any type of training.
It has been suggested by "professionals" to enter on the Visa Waiver and then decide to enroll in your school, not mentioning anything about your real intentions to immigration. DO NOT DO THIS.
To all wannabes, like myself, you have been warned!
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Good advice. The "you don't really need a visa" line is often repeated here and on the Flyer Forums by people who ought to know better.
Verifying early on whether or not your school is authorised to issue the all important I-20 immigration form is a smart early step.
If they fudge the issue or say that you don't need one, reject them quickly.
2D
Verifying early on whether or not your school is authorised to issue the all important I-20 immigration form is a smart early step.
If they fudge the issue or say that you don't need one, reject them quickly.
2D
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Is that the AAA at San Diego who are the only ones ever to have refused to pay Capt. PPRuNe for advertising on this web site? Some have long memories here eh AAA!
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If you read the VISA waiver on the US embassy website, you do not need a VISA for pleasure visits / flight training.
If your intention is a CPL afterwards, you do need a proper VISA.
The TSA handles your flight training, not the embassy. As I understand it, it is still not possible to be fingerprinted at an U.S. embassy for the TSA.
S.
supporting our Dutch troops in Iraq
If your intention is a CPL afterwards, you do need a proper VISA.
The TSA handles your flight training, not the embassy. As I understand it, it is still not possible to be fingerprinted at an U.S. embassy for the TSA.
S.
supporting our Dutch troops in Iraq
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There is a fantastic amount of inaccurate information, and probably disinformation, put out concerning FAA training. I think somebody out there is having a competition, with the #1 prize awarded to the one who can confuse most people.
The question is ....... WHO is it?
The question is ....... WHO is it?
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Here is the gospel according to St Ricardo (alias the boss of Naples Air Centre).
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=65838
It remains 100% accurate so far as I am aware and it has remained for some time unchallenged which speaks volumes for the accuracy of the information.
The information is to be found as a "Sticky" at the top of the Private Pilots forum page.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=65838
It remains 100% accurate so far as I am aware and it has remained for some time unchallenged which speaks volumes for the accuracy of the information.
The information is to be found as a "Sticky" at the top of the Private Pilots forum page.
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It would be extremely unwise (not sensible at all! 
) to assume that a 2002 post remains "100% accurate". The Transporation Safety Administration has introduced many relevant regulations and requirements since then. The post might nevertheless remain substantially accurate, but then again it might well not.
I believe all this really reflects is that the thread has been closed for a considerable time. 
) to assume that a 2002 post remains "100% accurate". The Transporation Safety Administration has introduced many relevant regulations and requirements since then. The post might nevertheless remain substantially accurate, but then again it might well not.
it has remained for some time unchallenged which speaks volumes for the accuracy of the information
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Its all a bit of a grey area. If you read about the M1 visa, it is designed for a student, who wishes to study a non-academic course.
It could be argued that if you are already a pilot, holding a pilot certificate you are no longer a student pilot (in the eyes of the FAA) and therefore not entitled to and not needing an M1 visa. I would like to see some clarification from the US government on this as I believe that there are tons of people wrongly under the impression that they need this visa, when in actual fact they don't. I also believe that flying schools are wrongly applying for visas for foreign pilots probably because they can and they know it works.
The US Embassy initially refused a friend of mine an M1 for his CPL in FLA (but subsequently issued it) becasue in their eyes he was not a student and did not need one as he was already a pilot.
I hope with this TSA stuff coming out then this will clarify the matter and get rid of the need to have an M1 for additional ratings.
It could be argued that if you are already a pilot, holding a pilot certificate you are no longer a student pilot (in the eyes of the FAA) and therefore not entitled to and not needing an M1 visa. I would like to see some clarification from the US government on this as I believe that there are tons of people wrongly under the impression that they need this visa, when in actual fact they don't. I also believe that flying schools are wrongly applying for visas for foreign pilots probably because they can and they know it works.
The US Embassy initially refused a friend of mine an M1 for his CPL in FLA (but subsequently issued it) becasue in their eyes he was not a student and did not need one as he was already a pilot.
I hope with this TSA stuff coming out then this will clarify the matter and get rid of the need to have an M1 for additional ratings.
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OK. I certainly don't want to contribute to mis-information or mislead anyone to the extent that they get in to trouble with the US authorities, heaven forbid, but...
A good friend, James Dunn, CFI at long established Cessna accelerated flight school Northaire in Prescott, Arizona and an FAA examiner himself told me the following in person just last Saturday:
"The M1 Visa for flight training is history and applying for it just complicates matters. The new TSA rule supercedes the visa process. The TSA screening requires the applicant to register by internet and does not involve any delay when arriving for flight training which can proceed while the application is being checked by TSA. In Northaire's case the actual fingerprinting is carried out by the local Sherriff. It would only be an issue if the person was rejected by TSA, at which point flight training would have to stop. There's no question of a person pitching up for flight training subsequently being reported for a visa violation"
James is not a charlatan and the school I understand is approved to issue the I-20 form. I suggest that anyone considering this route check with their selected flight school and get confirmation similar to what I have quoted above from the examiner who will carry out their flight test.
A good friend, James Dunn, CFI at long established Cessna accelerated flight school Northaire in Prescott, Arizona and an FAA examiner himself told me the following in person just last Saturday:
"The M1 Visa for flight training is history and applying for it just complicates matters. The new TSA rule supercedes the visa process. The TSA screening requires the applicant to register by internet and does not involve any delay when arriving for flight training which can proceed while the application is being checked by TSA. In Northaire's case the actual fingerprinting is carried out by the local Sherriff. It would only be an issue if the person was rejected by TSA, at which point flight training would have to stop. There's no question of a person pitching up for flight training subsequently being reported for a visa violation"
James is not a charlatan and the school I understand is approved to issue the I-20 form. I suggest that anyone considering this route check with their selected flight school and get confirmation similar to what I have quoted above from the examiner who will carry out their flight test.
Last edited by david viewing; 19th Jan 2005 at 11:39.
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Lightheart - I'm still waiting....
Funnily enough, last year AAA advised me that a visa was required for training but not for hour-building.
Have we another 'nasty, unscrupulous Yanks' thread with no basis in fact?
Funnily enough, last year AAA advised me that a visa was required for training but not for hour-building.
Have we another 'nasty, unscrupulous Yanks' thread with no basis in fact?
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I believe that you believe wrong!
I still think that it would be silly to rely upon a 2.5-year-old post, without at least picking up the telephone or doing a web search to confirm that the information in that post remains current. But of course anyone who disagrees is at perfect liberty to take their chances ...
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Got to agree with Sans-Anoraque on this one. AAA were scrupulously honest in their statements to me about a visa each time I have gone there. There was a period when they couldn't issue I-20s and they said so and didn't advise one way or the other.
David Viewing - I'm sure what you've said is right in terms of anyone already in the US turning up at a flight school. I'm not clear that changes the position for those not yet in the country trying to get through immigration but lets hope so.
David Viewing - I'm sure what you've said is right in terms of anyone already in the US turning up at a flight school. I'm not clear that changes the position for those not yet in the country trying to get through immigration but lets hope so.
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The TSA rules are not too arduous. We use the interpretation from:
www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/index.html
We insist that our students have an M1 visa before they arrive here in the USA. I think there would be a problem if you completed the TSA application online without showing visa information. My advice is not to lie to the Immigration officer when you enter on a waiver and subsequently decide to take flying lessons. Any school that suggests that course of action is acceptable is plain wrong. If you breach your entry conditions you will be excluded and won't get back.
Regards,
Chopperpilot 47
www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/index.html
We insist that our students have an M1 visa before they arrive here in the USA. I think there would be a problem if you completed the TSA application online without showing visa information. My advice is not to lie to the Immigration officer when you enter on a waiver and subsequently decide to take flying lessons. Any school that suggests that course of action is acceptable is plain wrong. If you breach your entry conditions you will be excluded and won't get back.
Regards,
Chopperpilot 47
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The fact is that the Immigration and Nationality Service have computer aided memories. It would be unfortunate for anyone deported from the USA on visa issues since re-entry into the US would be difficult to say the least. It would also have an effect on job prospects with any airline flying into the USA. 
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I would still like to see where it is specifically written that you need an M1 visa for a flight training course...
I used to regularly do "training courses" in Houston and admitted under a B1 (business) visa, not a student visa. For an already qualified pilot, training for a rating is effectively a "training course" and you are not a student. It doesn't even have to be full time, and I think that the M1 is for a "full time non academic course". What if you want to go for a months holiday, and do a bit of flight training here and there and end up with a ME rating?
I can understand an M1 for a "student pilot" on an FAA student permit, or maybe someone who wants to stay in the US for a number of years earning money. You can be employed as long as it is to do with your course......which is how a lot of instructors get away with it, they are "training" to become airline pilots.
I stand to be corrected but would also like to see clarification....
Cheers
I used to regularly do "training courses" in Houston and admitted under a B1 (business) visa, not a student visa. For an already qualified pilot, training for a rating is effectively a "training course" and you are not a student. It doesn't even have to be full time, and I think that the M1 is for a "full time non academic course". What if you want to go for a months holiday, and do a bit of flight training here and there and end up with a ME rating?
I can understand an M1 for a "student pilot" on an FAA student permit, or maybe someone who wants to stay in the US for a number of years earning money. You can be employed as long as it is to do with your course......which is how a lot of instructors get away with it, they are "training" to become airline pilots.
I stand to be corrected but would also like to see clarification....
Cheers