Power On Stalls, what's the point?
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So we come full circle!
Thus my opinion is that it is not sensible to undertake a manouevre that mightcause a spin, in an aircraft that is not certified for spinning and that is loaded at the back limit of it's cofg and only a few pounds under gross.
Why take the risk, when you can walk down the flight line and choose a Cessna (or even a PA38) that is cleared for spinning and has a recovery technique in its POH.
But there you go. Its obviously sensible to practice stalls regularly (apart from whip stalls, having heard the description) in a suitable spamcan and also slow flying as Slim Slag described.
So we come full circle!
My personal opinion is that everybody should experience spinning at some point in their training. An out of balance full power stall, should see to that nicely!
Why take the risk, when you can walk down the flight line and choose a Cessna (or even a PA38) that is cleared for spinning and has a recovery technique in its POH.
But there you go. Its obviously sensible to practice stalls regularly (apart from whip stalls, having heard the description) in a suitable spamcan and also slow flying as Slim Slag described.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 15th Jan 2005 at 07:52.
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Ah, but in reality you are (probably) more likely to stall when when close to MAUW.
I agree that practising this when close to the limits is not the best idea I've ever heard, but if you were uncomfortable about doing these manoeuvers in that machine why not just change a/c?
Being certified for spinning is one thing, but just because the FAA or CAA don't let you spin it on purpose, doesn't mean that the a/c won't spin on its own accord if handled poorly. So if you are to fly that type, then you should learn ALL its foibles and peculiarites such as what it's like in the incipient stage.
If flown correctly, then a full power stall shouldn't lead to a spin, therefore no problem.........
I agree that practising this when close to the limits is not the best idea I've ever heard, but if you were uncomfortable about doing these manoeuvers in that machine why not just change a/c?
Being certified for spinning is one thing, but just because the FAA or CAA don't let you spin it on purpose, doesn't mean that the a/c won't spin on its own accord if handled poorly. So if you are to fly that type, then you should learn ALL its foibles and peculiarites such as what it's like in the incipient stage.
If flown correctly, then a full power stall shouldn't lead to a spin, therefore no problem.........
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Hey,
Having just read through all seven pages I'm still a bit confused about the terminology and the fuss about these power-on stalls. Where I trained for my CPL we often did power-on stalls from a climbing turn. You would have to pitch up rather sharply and be sure to keep the ball centered. The stall was eventually entered at a fairly steep attitude and here you could either start a normal recovery or, if the yoke was held back and a slight bank angle kept on, the outside wing would eventually drop in a somewhat unsettling manner. This was something we practiced from a very early stage and we were also encouraged to do it on our own.
Are we talking about the same thing here? I did my first one after about seven hours of total time and never thought twice about doing it solo after I got used to the scary wing drop. Sure there was a risk of spinning but I just kept the ball centered and never thought about that either. In fact I've never looked at this as more special than steep turns or something - until now. Is this not normally trained and would it be regarded as an extreme or abnormal manuever?
Having just read through all seven pages I'm still a bit confused about the terminology and the fuss about these power-on stalls. Where I trained for my CPL we often did power-on stalls from a climbing turn. You would have to pitch up rather sharply and be sure to keep the ball centered. The stall was eventually entered at a fairly steep attitude and here you could either start a normal recovery or, if the yoke was held back and a slight bank angle kept on, the outside wing would eventually drop in a somewhat unsettling manner. This was something we practiced from a very early stage and we were also encouraged to do it on our own.
Are we talking about the same thing here? I did my first one after about seven hours of total time and never thought twice about doing it solo after I got used to the scary wing drop. Sure there was a risk of spinning but I just kept the ball centered and never thought about that either. In fact I've never looked at this as more special than steep turns or something - until now. Is this not normally trained and would it be regarded as an extreme or abnormal manuever?
quote:
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As for the statement that a power on stall is unrealistic.... Oh really. I'm sure Bookworm could dig up a few reports of people who've killed themselves that way.
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Actually my contribution was going to be to relate the following: the only time I recall triggering a stall warning horn in a situation when I really didn't intend to was in an unexpected go around in the Mooney with full-power on and full flap deployed.
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As for the statement that a power on stall is unrealistic.... Oh really. I'm sure Bookworm could dig up a few reports of people who've killed themselves that way.
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Actually my contribution was going to be to relate the following: the only time I recall triggering a stall warning horn in a situation when I really didn't intend to was in an unexpected go around in the Mooney with full-power on and full flap deployed.
I don't think this settles the case debated in this thread either way, but it does demonstrate the need for proficiency at least in managing the incipient stall with power on, particularly in more powerful light aircraft than your average trainer.
I'm a bit late to this thread, but the only fatal accident at my home airport (Palo Alto, CA) was a low-time pilot who got into a power-on stall/spin on climbout. So yes, it can happen.
I frightened the bejasus out of myself in a power-on stall while I was training, solo - my first ever rapid wing drop. I can't honestly say I like them, but they can happen. It's quite likely that the Cirrus that chute-landed near Fresno a few months back spun out of a power-on stall, although the Final Report isn't out yet. (He was very close to the ceiling for the type).
To open another can of worms... really every pilot should do spin and advanced stall training once they've got a few hours under their belt. (I agree with not having it be part of primary training but should be done once you feel completely comfortable with normal flying). That way nothing really frightens you. Of course it IS dangerous... to the wallet. Next thing you're flying acro for fun and having a heck of a time, but it isn't cheap :-(
While I'm at it, what exactly is an "incipient stall"? The warning horn? Buffet (doesn't happen much in Cessnas anyway)? First sign of the nose pitching down? "Recovering" from the warning horn isn't recovering at all. Really you should be able to fly the plane in a continuous stall, with the stick/yoke held back, keeping the wings level with rudder. (Some people call this a falling leaf, but there again others use it to mean something else).
n5296s (just back from trying, and almost succeeding, to land the Pitts!!)
I frightened the bejasus out of myself in a power-on stall while I was training, solo - my first ever rapid wing drop. I can't honestly say I like them, but they can happen. It's quite likely that the Cirrus that chute-landed near Fresno a few months back spun out of a power-on stall, although the Final Report isn't out yet. (He was very close to the ceiling for the type).
To open another can of worms... really every pilot should do spin and advanced stall training once they've got a few hours under their belt. (I agree with not having it be part of primary training but should be done once you feel completely comfortable with normal flying). That way nothing really frightens you. Of course it IS dangerous... to the wallet. Next thing you're flying acro for fun and having a heck of a time, but it isn't cheap :-(
While I'm at it, what exactly is an "incipient stall"? The warning horn? Buffet (doesn't happen much in Cessnas anyway)? First sign of the nose pitching down? "Recovering" from the warning horn isn't recovering at all. Really you should be able to fly the plane in a continuous stall, with the stick/yoke held back, keeping the wings level with rudder. (Some people call this a falling leaf, but there again others use it to mean something else).
n5296s (just back from trying, and almost succeeding, to land the Pitts!!)
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BEagle,
That shade of green would be the same as I went when conducting my first stalling sessions in the UAS. My instructor, the Boss, became rather pi**ed off at my inept attempts in firstly actually recognising the stall and secondly doing something about it!! He then proceeded to demonstrate that it is possible to stall at any AoA - inverted, 90degress AoB etc!!
Quite an interesting and thoroughly useful lesson!!
That shade of green would be the same as I went when conducting my first stalling sessions in the UAS. My instructor, the Boss, became rather pi**ed off at my inept attempts in firstly actually recognising the stall and secondly doing something about it!! He then proceeded to demonstrate that it is possible to stall at any AoA - inverted, 90degress AoB etc!!
Quite an interesting and thoroughly useful lesson!!
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Incipient is the light buffet.
You can't tell incipient from the attitude, as you can stall in a high nose attitude, a turn or relatively flat.
You can't tell from the airspeed. Low airspeed isn't always the sign of a stall as you can fly slowly and not stall, and you can stall at high speeds.
And you most certainly can't rely on the stall warner!
Other people may have different outlooks on what the incipient is!
You can't tell incipient from the attitude, as you can stall in a high nose attitude, a turn or relatively flat.
You can't tell from the airspeed. Low airspeed isn't always the sign of a stall as you can fly slowly and not stall, and you can stall at high speeds.
And you most certainly can't rely on the stall warner!
Other people may have different outlooks on what the incipient is!
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Incipient is the light buffet.
SS
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I just love all the comments about people experiencing stalls when flying solo.
We teach slow flight, stalling and spin awareness so that primarily one can avoid the stall at all times and so that in the unlikely event that while avoiding stalls at all costs, one should accidently stall, one can recover with minimum height loss.
We do not teach spins and spin recovery because if one never stalls one will never spin.
Sounds very logical to me until the instructor then sends a student off solo with the actual intention of entering a full stall (does not matter if it is with or without power applied).
That act throws the whole rationalle out the window.
Why is there any need for a low hours inexperienced nervous student to practice something that is to be avoided at all costs?
All the stall training I do with students is done dual.........if they can do it dual or with an examminer then they do not have to "prove" anything by doing it solo..............and thus when they get a severe wing drop during a stall with full power applied, I am there to provide support and guidance if it is required!
Regards,
DFC
We teach slow flight, stalling and spin awareness so that primarily one can avoid the stall at all times and so that in the unlikely event that while avoiding stalls at all costs, one should accidently stall, one can recover with minimum height loss.
We do not teach spins and spin recovery because if one never stalls one will never spin.
Sounds very logical to me until the instructor then sends a student off solo with the actual intention of entering a full stall (does not matter if it is with or without power applied).
That act throws the whole rationalle out the window.
Why is there any need for a low hours inexperienced nervous student to practice something that is to be avoided at all costs?
All the stall training I do with students is done dual.........if they can do it dual or with an examminer then they do not have to "prove" anything by doing it solo..............and thus when they get a severe wing drop during a stall with full power applied, I am there to provide support and guidance if it is required!
Regards,
DFC
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In the Camel........................no let us not get into that. I just wonder where some of the 'reasoned' arguments come from - as well as some definitions.
I can't get my mind round the apparent need NOT to teach spinning. It is true that some spam cans won't spin. The Jodel range are generally expected not to spin. But I have done it. Some aeroplanes drop a wing, when, of course, some recovery techniques shown here are dangerous. I mean you wouldn't lift the wing with aileron - would you? I have known many who have done so until I helped them understand why you should not do it and how easily it leads to a spin. But why didn't they know?
Straightforward stalling should be simple, and it usually is. But what about the one that catches the unwary out?
Recovery is the MOST important aspect of all stalls. If it goes wrong and you spin? What then? Who taught him/her to recover from it? What about the Chipmunk and its demand that the stick MUST be fully forward before initiating recovery from the subsequent dive, always assuming you performed the correct procedure in the first place, if not it will follow the many that have crashed through incorrect spin recovery technique. I also note that the topic is mainly about power on stalling, but that doesn't mean a new student won't experiment with stalling with it off.
I do of course recognise that an instructor will point to all the problems 'associated' with a possible spin, but my point is that it leaves the ACTUAL recovery to the solo unwary who have NOT been shown how. I would not take a bet on result that's for sure.
As you will note I am a strong advocate of teaching students to spin. I agree that you cannot do it in all aircraft so perhaps a bit of voluntary training on one that does would be more than helpful.
I can't get my mind round the apparent need NOT to teach spinning. It is true that some spam cans won't spin. The Jodel range are generally expected not to spin. But I have done it. Some aeroplanes drop a wing, when, of course, some recovery techniques shown here are dangerous. I mean you wouldn't lift the wing with aileron - would you? I have known many who have done so until I helped them understand why you should not do it and how easily it leads to a spin. But why didn't they know?
Straightforward stalling should be simple, and it usually is. But what about the one that catches the unwary out?
Recovery is the MOST important aspect of all stalls. If it goes wrong and you spin? What then? Who taught him/her to recover from it? What about the Chipmunk and its demand that the stick MUST be fully forward before initiating recovery from the subsequent dive, always assuming you performed the correct procedure in the first place, if not it will follow the many that have crashed through incorrect spin recovery technique. I also note that the topic is mainly about power on stalling, but that doesn't mean a new student won't experiment with stalling with it off.
I do of course recognise that an instructor will point to all the problems 'associated' with a possible spin, but my point is that it leaves the ACTUAL recovery to the solo unwary who have NOT been shown how. I would not take a bet on result that's for sure.
As you will note I am a strong advocate of teaching students to spin. I agree that you cannot do it in all aircraft so perhaps a bit of voluntary training on one that does would be more than helpful.
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Camel - as one for whom a Pre-PPL exposure to full spin recovery has helped out of the cack once, I endorse your views (without getting too involved in the age old 'you shouldn't have got into that situation' route). I was also fairly fortunate in having had about 40 hrs of flying as a cadet on AEF, much of which was upside down in Chippies! This at least helped me to remain calm and think logically through recovery actions, rather than just a random thrashing of the controls.
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Personally I think every pilot must experience spinning at some point and that the basic spin recovery for the type you are flying should be burnt into your memory.
My first CFI used to say" you only know the recovery well enough if I wake you at 2 in the morning shining a torch into your eyes shouting 'spin recovery' and you can trot it out exactly."
Spinning should never be taken lightly as an excercise which is why I wouldn't want it to be a mandatory part of the syllabus, but doing it voluntarily in a type that is capable and with an experienced Instructor is something I try to promote.
My first CFI used to say" you only know the recovery well enough if I wake you at 2 in the morning shining a torch into your eyes shouting 'spin recovery' and you can trot it out exactly."
Spinning should never be taken lightly as an excercise which is why I wouldn't want it to be a mandatory part of the syllabus, but doing it voluntarily in a type that is capable and with an experienced Instructor is something I try to promote.
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Hi guys,
I haven't read the whole thread, but I must say I have always wondered about this: my theory is that it is typically not clearly explained to students WHY the stalls are being practised other than "here's what you have to do to pass your test"...
From some conversations overheard at the bar about "practicing stalls" when solo, post-PPL, I have the impression that many people see it as some sort of skill; whereas my interpretation is that you need to get used to recognising what it looks, feels and sounds like so you can take immediate action to recover, ergo it should normally be avoided!
On the other hand, I understand why spin-training would be a good idea and regret I haven't had any!!!
Just my two-penneth worth!
Andy
Why is there any need for a low hours inexperienced nervous student to practice something that is to be avoided at all costs?
From some conversations overheard at the bar about "practicing stalls" when solo, post-PPL, I have the impression that many people see it as some sort of skill; whereas my interpretation is that you need to get used to recognising what it looks, feels and sounds like so you can take immediate action to recover, ergo it should normally be avoided!
On the other hand, I understand why spin-training would be a good idea and regret I haven't had any!!!
Just my two-penneth worth!
Andy
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You could argue that there is more benefit in teaching students slow flight.....i.e. 50 kts, turns, climbs, descents etc.....than teaching spins.
It is important for a pilot to be able to recover from any stall and stall recovery is nearly always the same, but as for spin recovery, many aircraft are different, so what's the point in teaching spin recovery techniques? (They don't teach you to recover from a spin in a Citation, or Boeing).
Spin recovery in a Cirrus is to pull the chute. Even I could manage that without ever spinning a cirrus
Read the POH or the placard in front of you before you fly a different type.
It is important for a pilot to be able to recover from any stall and stall recovery is nearly always the same, but as for spin recovery, many aircraft are different, so what's the point in teaching spin recovery techniques? (They don't teach you to recover from a spin in a Citation, or Boeing).
Spin recovery in a Cirrus is to pull the chute. Even I could manage that without ever spinning a cirrus
Read the POH or the placard in front of you before you fly a different type.
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You make an interesting point.
I've certainly been through a couple of very interesting biennials in the states, where we investigated the low flight end of the envelope, in different configurations and attitudes and it was fascinating learning.
On the practical side one might reflect that many pilots pootling around SE UK at 2000 ft or so would have plenty of altitude to execute a stall recovery, but precious little to recovery from a spin. In the circuit, a stall recovery is certainly possible, a spin recovery unlikely (although I believe not unknown.)
So whilst I am certainly not anti spin training, I do believe that be familiar with slow flight on type and pre stall symptoms is very important.
You make an interesting point.
I've certainly been through a couple of very interesting biennials in the states, where we investigated the low flight end of the envelope, in different configurations and attitudes and it was fascinating learning.
On the practical side one might reflect that many pilots pootling around SE UK at 2000 ft or so would have plenty of altitude to execute a stall recovery, but precious little to recovery from a spin. In the circuit, a stall recovery is certainly possible, a spin recovery unlikely (although I believe not unknown.)
So whilst I am certainly not anti spin training, I do believe that be familiar with slow flight on type and pre stall symptoms is very important.
