LTMA infringements
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PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
LTMA infringements
I have just read the latest blow-by-blow compilation of these events for Oct 2004 here: http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/comm.asp...71&orderby=ASC
I am amazed that these appear to happen so frequently!
There but for the Grace of God...
Andy
I am amazed that these appear to happen so frequently!
There but for the Grace of God...
Andy
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Sadly we get them daily.
The reports on the website are just a mere fraction - as not all are listed and "minor" infringements are not always reportable as the aircraft often "escapes" (You wouldn't believe how many aircraft "bust" their level when departing local airfields - often up to 2900 ft before descending) Not nice when there is invariably traffic at 3000 feet at the base of the LTMA.
And then there are zone infringers!
As you say - there but for the grace of God.
The reports on the website are just a mere fraction - as not all are listed and "minor" infringements are not always reportable as the aircraft often "escapes" (You wouldn't believe how many aircraft "bust" their level when departing local airfields - often up to 2900 ft before descending) Not nice when there is invariably traffic at 3000 feet at the base of the LTMA.
And then there are zone infringers!
As you say - there but for the grace of God.
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PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
I used to presume that these busts would be from chaps / chapesses who are less familiar with the area around London (the Dutch pilots cited in the list for example) and that people like us who have trained in, under or very near to the TMA at Wycombe, Denham, Waltham, Elstree, Biggin, etc would be less likely to be the culprits as we have it drummed into us hard from an early stage... but there are also several apparently local examples (e.g. out of Waltham) cited, which probably blows my theory!
Vigilence and Preparation!
Andy
Vigilence and Preparation!
Andy
Supercharged PPRuNer
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From: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
Leaving Stapleford at the weekend, levelled at 2,400 to stay below the TMA. Most impressed to see an opposite-direction microlight pass several hundred feet over our heads.
I suppose he could have been talking to London, but I have my doubts . . .
I suppose he could have been talking to London, but I have my doubts . . .
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
G-SXTY...... and the scary thing of course is Northolt and LCY jets whizz over LAM at 3000 feet - often at 300kts+
Scarier still of course is the fact that a tiny slow moving microlight won't even paint on radar - and of course not give the pilot any TCAS info. Unlikelier still is the crew looking out for any traffic.
Feel free to report such an incidence to Thames Radar - gives us some chance of passing it on to the pilots.
Scarier still of course is the fact that a tiny slow moving microlight won't even paint on radar - and of course not give the pilot any TCAS info. Unlikelier still is the crew looking out for any traffic.
Feel free to report such an incidence to Thames Radar - gives us some chance of passing it on to the pilots.
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PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
Thames Radar or Northolt?
AlanM: slightly unrelated question, but interested if you can confirm...
I flew (at 2400' I promise!) on IMC training exercise from Wycombe to Southend last Saturday, tracking EGTB - CHT - LAM - SND. The boss suggested I call Northolt APP for RIS, and they kindly obliged and gave us an SSR code to squawk (totally quiet on their frequency other than us which surprised me - unless they were busy on UHF, but I think its mostly CIV traffic in there these days?).
Anyway, as you're with Thames Radar, I wondered if it might make sense to call you guys next time? I presume though that Thames would be extremely busy and I am probably better off with Northolt who seemed pretty happy to help.
Cheers!
Andy
I flew (at 2400' I promise!) on IMC training exercise from Wycombe to Southend last Saturday, tracking EGTB - CHT - LAM - SND. The boss suggested I call Northolt APP for RIS, and they kindly obliged and gave us an SSR code to squawk (totally quiet on their frequency other than us which surprised me - unless they were busy on UHF, but I think its mostly CIV traffic in there these days?).
Anyway, as you're with Thames Radar, I wondered if it might make sense to call you guys next time? I presume though that Thames would be extremely busy and I am probably better off with Northolt who seemed pretty happy to help.
Cheers!
Andy
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
AA
What you did seems good to me. Thames Radar is not a LARS unit, and as such we have had some squawks taken from us accordingly.
I would recommend listening in to the freq and seeing how busy we are. I can only offer a Limited RIS at the most, as our radar is poor at low levels (see above on microlights!!)
LCY is getting very busy nowadays - up to 31 inbounds per hour to LCY alone - so add the outbounds, and Biggin IFR movements, the Battersea Helis etc and you can see that it will sometimes be impossible.
Also, I cannot give you any real radar service within the vicinity of LAM due to Stapleford of course. As for out to the west, Thames really only goes as far as the North-South line through Battersea Heliport. THEN remember that Southend ARE a LARS unit so we are unlikely to give you much East of LAM!
Apart from all that, we will help IF we can!!
What you did seems good to me. Thames Radar is not a LARS unit, and as such we have had some squawks taken from us accordingly.
I would recommend listening in to the freq and seeing how busy we are. I can only offer a Limited RIS at the most, as our radar is poor at low levels (see above on microlights!!)
LCY is getting very busy nowadays - up to 31 inbounds per hour to LCY alone - so add the outbounds, and Biggin IFR movements, the Battersea Helis etc and you can see that it will sometimes be impossible.
Also, I cannot give you any real radar service within the vicinity of LAM due to Stapleford of course. As for out to the west, Thames really only goes as far as the North-South line through Battersea Heliport. THEN remember that Southend ARE a LARS unit so we are unlikely to give you much East of LAM!
Apart from all that, we will help IF we can!!
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From: UK
AlanM - probably not really the place to ask but here goes anyway. Advice on what SHOULD have been pilot action in the following circumstance.
Aircraft heading south into Denham, RIS from Luton (weather poor), Luton "advised" a height until cleared to Denham Radio. All went well and overhead Denham, airfield in sight and landed safely and without fuss EXCEPT infringement of Northolt because of height. Telephone call to explain and everyone OK about it - no harm done etc and aware because of Luton squawk. Ideally descent would have been appropriate but Luton advice and high cockpit workload dictated otherwise. Not seeking to blame anyone but the pilot (his responsiblity of course) but what should have been done.
Aircraft heading south into Denham, RIS from Luton (weather poor), Luton "advised" a height until cleared to Denham Radio. All went well and overhead Denham, airfield in sight and landed safely and without fuss EXCEPT infringement of Northolt because of height. Telephone call to explain and everyone OK about it - no harm done etc and aware because of Luton squawk. Ideally descent would have been appropriate but Luton advice and high cockpit workload dictated otherwise. Not seeking to blame anyone but the pilot (his responsiblity of course) but what should have been done.
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From: UK
The reports on the website are just a mere fraction - as not all are listed and "minor" infringements are not always reportable as the aircraft often "escapes" (You wouldn't believe how many aircraft "bust" their level when departing local airfields - often up to 2900 ft before descending) Not nice when there is invariably traffic at 3000 feet at the base of the LTMA.
Thread Starter
PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
Flyer Forum...
Related thread over on the other side if anyone interested: http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=10601
Andy
Andy
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
WH
The simple answer, is that you must adhere to the joining procedures at Denham (1000 feet inside the LCTR zone)
I can understand the Luton controller reminding you of the MSA - especially if the weather is a bit claggy - but it is up to you to follow the rules.
We get PFL requests a lot on LHR SVFR and we allow up to 2400 in the Denham overhead if co-ordinated with Northolt Apr.
Sorry if this is not the answer you wanted..
Luckily, there wasn't a Northolt departure climbing northbound off runway 25!! That would have increased your workload!
The simple answer, is that you must adhere to the joining procedures at Denham (1000 feet inside the LCTR zone)
I can understand the Luton controller reminding you of the MSA - especially if the weather is a bit claggy - but it is up to you to follow the rules.
We get PFL requests a lot on LHR SVFR and we allow up to 2400 in the Denham overhead if co-ordinated with Northolt Apr.
Sorry if this is not the answer you wanted..
Luckily, there wasn't a Northolt departure climbing northbound off runway 25!! That would have increased your workload!
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From: Essex, UK
G SXTY
Does it not worry you that you didn't see him until you levelled out?
Perhaps he had seen you climbing towards him and thought that his safest option was into CAS, as it was hopefully the one place you wouldn't go.
There's always two sides and we only have yours.
Does it not worry you that you didn't see him until you levelled out?
Perhaps he had seen you climbing towards him and thought that his safest option was into CAS, as it was hopefully the one place you wouldn't go.
There's always two sides and we only have yours.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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From: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
naughty microlights
Thanks for the suggestion AlanM, I’ll remember that for next time. I very often see LCY traffic overhead LAM, so it doesn’t take much imagination to work out what could happen . . . 
Just seen yours Bar Shaker. We were visual with him for some time and were never on a collision course, so I’m pretty sure he wasn’t taking avoiding action.
However, we were just west of Junction 28 on the M25, quite close to where the TMA jumps from 2500’ to 3500’, so it’s possible he thought the limit was higher than it was. Still, not much consolation if a 146 runs you over.
Just seen yours Bar Shaker. We were visual with him for some time and were never on a collision course, so I’m pretty sure he wasn’t taking avoiding action.
However, we were just west of Junction 28 on the M25, quite close to where the TMA jumps from 2500’ to 3500’, so it’s possible he thought the limit was higher than it was. Still, not much consolation if a 146 runs you over.
Last edited by G SXTY; 8th December 2004 at 18:28.
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From: UK
AlanM & WBSATCO - It is what I anticipated and you just confirmed hindsight thinking. It is I believe fortunate that we have have a very good system of ATC in the UK and are by and large quite tolerant of unintentional errors where no danger is involved. This does allow for mistakes to be made and lessons to be learned by all concerned without the fear of prosecution. I am sure I speak for the vast majority of pilots in expressing thanks to all ATC staff for the service provided when available.
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
WH
The most important thing is that no-one was killed and you (and probably others) have learnt from it.
Obviously, as an ATCO we have to be very careful what we say which could be mis-interpreted, which appears to be the case here. I am guessing that the weather was crap and the Luton ATCO was understandably considering your safety and MSA.
Everyone makes mistakes (even ATCO's Timothy!) - but the key is how you react to them. We have had zone infringers who come down to BUR at 2400 ft, and the when seeing a 747 climb BELOW them, dive down low, turn off the Mode A/C and go for a low level escape! (Don't forget that NATS can tap into a lot of different radar heads for a recording!!)
If you are inadvertantly in CAS then call someone! If you are really lost and dont know the freq call D&D - at least they can identify you and verify your Mode C. They also have a direct line to us!!! (as do other units) People who do nothing are the real frustration.
Hey ho........
The most important thing is that no-one was killed and you (and probably others) have learnt from it.
Obviously, as an ATCO we have to be very careful what we say which could be mis-interpreted, which appears to be the case here. I am guessing that the weather was crap and the Luton ATCO was understandably considering your safety and MSA.
Everyone makes mistakes (even ATCO's Timothy!
) - but the key is how you react to them. We have had zone infringers who come down to BUR at 2400 ft, and the when seeing a 747 climb BELOW them, dive down low, turn off the Mode A/C and go for a low level escape! (Don't forget that NATS can tap into a lot of different radar heads for a recording!!)If you are inadvertantly in CAS then call someone! If you are really lost and dont know the freq call D&D - at least they can identify you and verify your Mode C. They also have a direct line to us!!! (as do other units) People who do nothing are the real frustration.
Hey ho........
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From: Spanish Riviera
Alan M's last paragraph is exactly right. ATC are not in the business of admonishing pilots, their role is enhancing/ensuring flight safety. Consider it this way:
If you inadvertantly end-up somewhere you shouldn't be, then you will get far more respect and support if you talk to ATC (this includes D&D). The pilots who fall fowl of the "big stick" often do so because they have a problem recognising that their actions may have adversely affected a fellow pilot and consequently they try to cover their tracks.
If you inadvertantly end-up somewhere you shouldn't be, then you will get far more respect and support if you talk to ATC (this includes D&D). The pilots who fall fowl of the "big stick" often do so because they have a problem recognising that their actions may have adversely affected a fellow pilot and consequently they try to cover their tracks.