Is this possible?
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 135
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From: UK
Is this possible?
Hi,
It occured to me the other day that as I am doing quite a bit of flying and there are invariably spare seats it might be a good idea to take some less fortunate or disadvantaged people along too!
Now, I know there are legalities concerning accepting money for flying but I don't want to receive any payments - money or in kind. I was thinking of maybe on the odd occasion taking people, young or old, on flights lasting an hour or so of the local area.
I know it might sound strange but i find it so rewarding to take someone flying who really has a keen intrest but maybe never had the chance or couldn't afford it. I've approcahed my local radio station about this and they're having a think about it at their end to see if it is something they could assist with.
My question is do any of you guys have any suggestions or opinions on this? It's a tentative enquiry at the moment and I don't doubt there are pittfalls and legalities but has anybody, or does anybody know of anyone, who has done such a thing! Any advice thoughts or suggestions would be useful. An important point is that I rent an aircraft from a flying school and obviously I'd have to run any ideas past them beforehand!
Thanks in advance,
Dan
It occured to me the other day that as I am doing quite a bit of flying and there are invariably spare seats it might be a good idea to take some less fortunate or disadvantaged people along too!
Now, I know there are legalities concerning accepting money for flying but I don't want to receive any payments - money or in kind. I was thinking of maybe on the odd occasion taking people, young or old, on flights lasting an hour or so of the local area.
I know it might sound strange but i find it so rewarding to take someone flying who really has a keen intrest but maybe never had the chance or couldn't afford it. I've approcahed my local radio station about this and they're having a think about it at their end to see if it is something they could assist with.
My question is do any of you guys have any suggestions or opinions on this? It's a tentative enquiry at the moment and I don't doubt there are pittfalls and legalities but has anybody, or does anybody know of anyone, who has done such a thing! Any advice thoughts or suggestions would be useful. An important point is that I rent an aircraft from a flying school and obviously I'd have to run any ideas past them beforehand!
Thanks in advance,
Dan
Spicy Meatball
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,115
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From: Liverpool UK
Hi Dan
I had a similar post to yours, about a year ago, before I started the PPL. My idea was to do the same, but ask for money. Being extremely uneducated on the subject of course! I was going to post adverts round my university to see if anyone was interested in 'local flights' - or pleasure flights if you like. The thing is, as you know, you can take no profit at all, and must pay no less than the equal share of the flight. That is the money side of things, and unless things have changed, I would be careful. With regards to the advertising though, I think this is a different matter. I am not too sure on this one, so hopefully someone else can shed a light. I do know though, that the CAA come down heavily on people who break the rules, especially in this department.
Best of luck
Maz
I had a similar post to yours, about a year ago, before I started the PPL. My idea was to do the same, but ask for money. Being extremely uneducated on the subject of course! I was going to post adverts round my university to see if anyone was interested in 'local flights' - or pleasure flights if you like. The thing is, as you know, you can take no profit at all, and must pay no less than the equal share of the flight. That is the money side of things, and unless things have changed, I would be careful. With regards to the advertising though, I think this is a different matter. I am not too sure on this one, so hopefully someone else can shed a light. I do know though, that the CAA come down heavily on people who break the rules, especially in this department.
Best of luck
Maz
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
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From: Cambridge, England, EU
I was under the impression that advertising for passengers was illegal, other than on the flying club notice board. (Although I might have that wrong, and it might only be illegal to advertise for cost-share passengers and not free passengers.)
I've not heard anything to the effect that there's a problem with word of mouth.
I've not heard anything to the effect that there's a problem with word of mouth.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Go read Article 130 of the ANO
A strict interpretation of this means an Instructor breaks the law if he advertises a cost sharing jaunt to Le Touquet in his flying club and an owner or part owner breaks the law if he does likewise.
(ii) (aa) no more than 4 persons (including the pilot) are carried on such a flight;
(bb) the proportion which such contribution bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot);
(cc) no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club; and
(dd) no person acting as a pilot on such a flight shall be employed as a pilot by or be a party to a contract for the provision of services as a pilot with the operator of the aircraft being flown on the flight.
(bb) the proportion which such contribution bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot);
(cc) no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club; and
(dd) no person acting as a pilot on such a flight shall be employed as a pilot by or be a party to a contract for the provision of services as a pilot with the operator of the aircraft being flown on the flight.
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
Even if you do it for free, don't forget that if you have a mishap, the families of the passengers will sue your remaining family to the end of the earth......even if you get them to sign a disclaimer.
I wouldn't bother myself, if anyone asks to come flying with me, then thats fine, I wouldn't advertise my services however....
Cheers
I wouldn't bother myself, if anyone asks to come flying with me, then thats fine, I wouldn't advertise my services however....
Cheers
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
Provided you receive no payment from the passengers -- strictly speaking, provided no one pays anyone else for them to be carried -- then you're fine from the point of view of aviation law.
The part of Art 130 that Mike quotes contains the conditions under which you can receive such a payment.
As others point out, there may be issues of liability to think about, as well.
The part of Art 130 that Mike quotes contains the conditions under which you can receive such a payment.
As others point out, there may be issues of liability to think about, as well.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
I don't want to receive any payments - money or in kind. I was thinking of maybe on the odd occasion taking people, young or old, on flights lasting an hour or so of the local area.
do any of you guys have any suggestions or opinions on this? It's a tentative enquiry at the moment and I don't doubt there are pittfalls and legalities but has anybody, or does anybody know of anyone, who has done such a thing!
Peoples' Champion!
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 248
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From: UK
It's just my opinion but to be honest, and no matter how honourable your intentions, I'd steer well clear of it. It's exactly the sort of thing that can come back and bite you on the bum either in the form of a ‘little chat’ with the CAA or an ambulance-chasing lawyer in the unlikely event of a prang! Crazy, I know but sadly it’s the world we live in.
Better, perhaps to make it an ‘official charity flight’ (see here) at least, then you’re covered from any trouble from the CAA if not from the damn lawyers!
BH
Better, perhaps to make it an ‘official charity flight’ (see here) at least, then you’re covered from any trouble from the CAA if not from the damn lawyers!
BH
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
MLS & Bookworm are quite right, I was responding more to Maz's idea of a contribution.
I like to take people along for the ride but it can be an issue if the person is unaware of the risk. If you take someone on a potentially hazardous activity you have a duty of care. Just look at the canoeing and hill walking incidents that have occurred within education.
While you can to an extent cover yourself with a "blood chit" signed by the passenger acknowledging that he understands the risks and will not hold you responsible it is impossible in law to cover yourself for negligence. Let's say you fail to carry out some pre-flight check and have an EFATO during which your passenger is injured and cannot work. His lawyer argues that your failure to drain the tank properly was negligent. The Court agrees and bingo your blood chit is worthless.
Not saying one should not do it, just that you should be aware of the potential for problems.
I like to take people along for the ride but it can be an issue if the person is unaware of the risk. If you take someone on a potentially hazardous activity you have a duty of care. Just look at the canoeing and hill walking incidents that have occurred within education.
While you can to an extent cover yourself with a "blood chit" signed by the passenger acknowledging that he understands the risks and will not hold you responsible it is impossible in law to cover yourself for negligence. Let's say you fail to carry out some pre-flight check and have an EFATO during which your passenger is injured and cannot work. His lawyer argues that your failure to drain the tank properly was negligent. The Court agrees and bingo your blood chit is worthless.
Not saying one should not do it, just that you should be aware of the potential for problems.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 135
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From: UK
MLS-12D,
You're quite right and infact you've reminded me of the programme that I intended to refer to here. That is effectively exactly what I was enquiring on originally, not just confined to youngsters but anybody really.
I'm grateful for all your replies here guys. I'll keep you posted on how it goes but I'll be calling the CAA later today to see if they can advise.
much appreciated, thanks.
Dan
You're quite right and infact you've reminded me of the programme that I intended to refer to here. That is effectively exactly what I was enquiring on originally, not just confined to youngsters but anybody really.
I'm grateful for all your replies here guys. I'll keep you posted on how it goes but I'll be calling the CAA later today to see if they can advise.
much appreciated, thanks.
Dan
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
From: Canada
While you can to an extent cover yourself with a "blood chit" signed by the passenger acknowledging that he understands the risks and will not hold you responsible it is impossible in law to cover yourself for negligence.
That said, even a poorly-worded document provides some argument that the passenger has voluntarily accepted the risk, which may deter some claims and would provide leverage for settlement negotiations in others. So, it's not a bad idea to require all pax to sign one, which should then be kept in a safe place (on the ground, not in the aicrcraft).
the damn lawyers
