Auster on a permit (Merged)
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 323
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From: Down the field!
Diso... I've heard this too. Don't know how true it is.
Seems like one big mess to me at the moment
LnS - Don't know what the views will be on carrying more than 2 seats. Hopefully the CAA will allow us to fill the 3rd (or 4th) seat if they do go to the PFA.
Grob Driver
(soon to be nice shiny Auster Driver!)
Seems like one big mess to me at the moment
LnS - Don't know what the views will be on carrying more than 2 seats. Hopefully the CAA will allow us to fill the 3rd (or 4th) seat if they do go to the PFA.
Grob Driver
(soon to be nice shiny Auster Driver!)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 18
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From: uk
You know, I cant help but have a rant about all of this.
How can the CAA - a professional body - put out such a letter as they have, knowing that it would raise more questions than they have prepared answers for. This has been on the horizon for some time, so they should be prepared.
I have not yet spoken to anyone at the CAA, but we need to know what permit our particular aircraft will be expected to operate under if that becomes the only route open to us. Could't this have been put in 'the letter'.
If the TC is 'picked up' by a Design Organisation or somebody assumes the responsibility under a TRA, would we the Owners/operators be able to have a say in that, or are we being expected to just pay for those services and rough luck son.
The more I read 'the letter' the more I'm inclined to try and turn my back on maintaining a Certified Aircraft. If its this bad now, how much worse can things get in the future. Owning/operating is not cheap (especially as a sole owner) how much more expensive is it likely to become.
Sorry folks..................rant off. Phew
How can the CAA - a professional body - put out such a letter as they have, knowing that it would raise more questions than they have prepared answers for. This has been on the horizon for some time, so they should be prepared.
I have not yet spoken to anyone at the CAA, but we need to know what permit our particular aircraft will be expected to operate under if that becomes the only route open to us. Could't this have been put in 'the letter'.
If the TC is 'picked up' by a Design Organisation or somebody assumes the responsibility under a TRA, would we the Owners/operators be able to have a say in that, or are we being expected to just pay for those services and rough luck son.
The more I read 'the letter' the more I'm inclined to try and turn my back on maintaining a Certified Aircraft. If its this bad now, how much worse can things get in the future. Owning/operating is not cheap (especially as a sole owner) how much more expensive is it likely to become.
Sorry folks..................rant off. Phew
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 323
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From: Down the field!
Diso,
We're in the process of getting a new CofA on our aircraft (Auster).... Words fail me at some of the things that the CAA have told us. Too many to put on here, and it would only further the rumours as to what’s happening. What I find worrying is how you can phone the CAA... Phone the same office, on the same number... Talk to two different people, and get TOTALLY different answers.
I've been told that the CAA want to keep the Auster on a CofA.... Yet we have an e-mail saying that it IS going on a permit.
It's just a minefield when it comes to dealing with them (the CAA).
Unfortunately no one is willing to put any thoughts down on paper. I guess because no one really knows what’s happening so they're not willing to put their neck on the line. How can the authority that regulates the safety of aviation in this country be so appalling in how they do things? It really is a worry. I'm still very much undecided about which way I want and think things will go. I'll willing to admit that I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the subject but I fear for the permit route... It sounds very restrictive to me.
Right... I'll shut up.... Switches back to safe!
We're in the process of getting a new CofA on our aircraft (Auster).... Words fail me at some of the things that the CAA have told us. Too many to put on here, and it would only further the rumours as to what’s happening. What I find worrying is how you can phone the CAA... Phone the same office, on the same number... Talk to two different people, and get TOTALLY different answers.
I've been told that the CAA want to keep the Auster on a CofA.... Yet we have an e-mail saying that it IS going on a permit.
It's just a minefield when it comes to dealing with them (the CAA).
Unfortunately no one is willing to put any thoughts down on paper. I guess because no one really knows what’s happening so they're not willing to put their neck on the line. How can the authority that regulates the safety of aviation in this country be so appalling in how they do things? It really is a worry. I'm still very much undecided about which way I want and think things will go. I'll willing to admit that I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the subject but I fear for the permit route... It sounds very restrictive to me.
Right... I'll shut up.... Switches back to safe!
Last edited by Grob Driver; 31st March 2005 at 20:22.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 18
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From: uk
Grob Driver, I have put a similar posting about UK Orphans on the PFA BB. There are a couple of replies that you might want to read which may put your fears about operating on a PFA Permit to rest.
One thing I don't really understand is why are some Owner/Operators so desperate to hang on to the C of A?
For the huge savings that are there to be had by operating on a PFA Permit instead of the C of A, not to mention not having to deal with the CAA, I wonder why we aren't grabbing this opportunity for all we're worth.
One thing I don't really understand is why are some Owner/Operators so desperate to hang on to the C of A?
For the huge savings that are there to be had by operating on a PFA Permit instead of the C of A, not to mention not having to deal with the CAA, I wonder why we aren't grabbing this opportunity for all we're worth.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: UK
For the huge savings that are there to be had by operating on a PFA Permit instead of the C of A, not to mention not having to deal with the CAA, I wonder why we aren't grabbing this opportunity for all we're worth.
This has consistently been scuppered by a CAA official line "if it can have a CofA, it must have a CofA".
The big change here has been that EASA (which now overrules UK-CAA, DGAC-France, etc.) has decided that if there is no organisation supporting the CofA, then the aircraft has to transfer to either the national or EASA permit system. So, for example given Airbus refused to continue supporting Concorde, that aircraft would now be transferred onto PtF rules.
For most people operating aircraft that really are past their use-by-date for night/IFR/commercial use anyhow, this is a huge step forward since the costs associated with PtF operations should be considerably less.
There are however a handful of important (and as yet unanswered) questions which I'd be asking CAA if I owned such an aircraft...
(1) What is the difference between the privileges and costs of a CAA Permit, PFA Permit, EASA Permit, and do I have any choice regarding which direction I go?
(2) Have I any grandfather rights to continue operating night / IFR ?
(3) If not, is there anything I can do about this?
(4) Is there any organisation that has expressed an interest in taking on the type certificate for my type?
So, if you've had one of these CAA letters, I'd recommend going to whoever wrote it and asking those questions - it'll make (hopefully) the real implications much clearer.
G
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 18
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From: uk
Anyone see the posting in the May issue of Flyer Magazine 'Killing GA' by Miles McCallum. It may help to sway anyone who is undecided on the C of A versus PFA Permit question.
If your thumbing through a copy of it in Smiths because you can't afford to buy it due to impending Star Annual, take a look at page 67 'Our Aircraft'. Miles is at it again about a mod to an Auster, what he's trying to do seems impossible on a C of A aircraft, but may perhaps be accepted as "Standard Aircraft Practice" if it was on a PFA Permit.
I gather you Auster Owners were having a meeting on the LTO subject, any news? PM me if you wish
If your thumbing through a copy of it in Smiths because you can't afford to buy it due to impending Star Annual, take a look at page 67 'Our Aircraft'. Miles is at it again about a mod to an Auster, what he's trying to do seems impossible on a C of A aircraft, but may perhaps be accepted as "Standard Aircraft Practice" if it was on a PFA Permit.
I gather you Auster Owners were having a meeting on the LTO subject, any news? PM me if you wish
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Ashwell, U.K.
The rumour mill has it that the Auster Club were to have a meeting with the PFA on Tuesday this week to see if it was possible to put an Auster on a Permit. Did the meeting happen and what was the answer? My aircraft (an Airtourer) is in the same situation and it would be good to know which way the wind is blowing on the subject.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
The latest I have heard is that the CAA are looking at Air Atlantique's proposal to become the Type Certificate Holder for Austers and Beagles quite favourably. The PFA is also happy about it as they didn't want 200 odd extra aeroplanes filling their system. The CAA don't seem to have heard from many Auster owners and are thus moving ahead with AA's proposal. If you want you Auster on a PFA Permit it is now or never. Write to the CAA expressing your feelings. Don't forget that there must be a financial benefit to Air Atlantique to take this on. We, the owners, will be supplying the finances for it.
Comments from Air Atlantique, the CAA and the PFA confirming, denying or just generally clarifying the above would be more than welcome.
Comments from Air Atlantique, the CAA and the PFA confirming, denying or just generally clarifying the above would be more than welcome.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 49
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From: Midlands
LowNSlow
I think that the PFA would be very keen to welcome the Austers onto their fleet if they are transferred to a Permit to Fly.
The issue at stake is that if an eligible Type Certificate or 'TRA' holder comes forward, then they will have to remain on a C of A and hence under applicable C of A rules.
It would be worth dropping PFA a quick email to confirm their view.
KZ8
I think that the PFA would be very keen to welcome the Austers onto their fleet if they are transferred to a Permit to Fly.
The issue at stake is that if an eligible Type Certificate or 'TRA' holder comes forward, then they will have to remain on a C of A and hence under applicable C of A rules.
It would be worth dropping PFA a quick email to confirm their view.
KZ8
Last edited by KZ8; 17th May 2005 at 15:22.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
KZ8 I've been in touch with the PFA and they are supporting a more pragmatic approach than the CAA's all on CofA or all on Permit idea. The PFA are suggesting that if there is support such as Air Atlantique's offer then those who wish to remain on a C of A with all the current cost issues and the future (EASA) potentially horrendous cost increases can stay on a C of A. Anybody with half a brain could exercise the option to have their aircraft transferred to a PFA Permit .
It will be interesting to see what happens, being an abject realist I've sure that the CAA will go for the line of least resistance and drop the lot into Air Atlantique's (or A N Other's) lap. The next step will then be to attempt to get the Austers already on a Permit to transfer back into the C of A system which will be a complete nightmare for the owners involved.
It will be interesting to see what happens, being an abject realist I've sure that the CAA will go for the line of least resistance and drop the lot into Air Atlantique's (or A N Other's) lap. The next step will then be to attempt to get the Austers already on a Permit to transfer back into the C of A system which will be a complete nightmare for the owners involved.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Ashwell, U.K.
Just to let you know that the CAA in their wisdom have decreed that as the Glos-Airtourers were manufactured in New Zealand and that the serial numbers were issued there, then we will fall under the NZ CAA as the Type Certificate holder. We will continue to be C of A aircraft but how EASA will mange it I know not. One thing is certain, it won't be cheap unless EASA do away with the Star Annual and go the American route.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Does that mean you have to change your name to NZ plane then??? 
I see that there are quite a few Austers for sale in various websites and magazines. Don't think the owners will have much luck until this issue is resolved.
The requirement to go to an M3 facility (or whatever the EASA equivalent is) for the Annual inspections is going to hugely increase costs for ALL aircraft on a C of A that don't currently do this. Best of all, the service there is not always proportional to the cost. I know a chap who had his Star Annual done on a C172 which cost him the thick end of £7,500. He's retained a sizeable chunk of this as the company (who shall remain nameless but is a very well known outfit) cured the minor faults his aircraft had but added a whole new set for him! The faults only became apparent on his flight home and he was loath to fly the aircraft back to them. Their attitude was tough luck, where's our money?Doubtless their respective solicitors will be earning some money soon.
I see that there are quite a few Austers for sale in various websites and magazines. Don't think the owners will have much luck until this issue is resolved.
The requirement to go to an M3 facility (or whatever the EASA equivalent is) for the Annual inspections is going to hugely increase costs for ALL aircraft on a C of A that don't currently do this. Best of all, the service there is not always proportional to the cost. I know a chap who had his Star Annual done on a C172 which cost him the thick end of £7,500. He's retained a sizeable chunk of this as the company (who shall remain nameless but is a very well known outfit) cured the minor faults his aircraft had but added a whole new set for him! The faults only became apparent on his flight home and he was loath to fly the aircraft back to them. Their attitude was tough luck, where's our money?Doubtless their respective solicitors will be earning some money soon.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Ashwell, U.K.
Good point LownSlow, I hadn't thought of that. Still it was an Ozzie design originally so I guess I'll stick with it. You're not alone with your concerns on the possible increased costs of EASA maintenance and I think everybody has heard at least one horror story.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,681
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Auster Prop needed
I want to get my steel Fairey-Reed prop re-pitched but it's going to take a while. Does anybody know of an airworthy prop, wooden or steel, to fit an Auster J1 with a Cirrus Minor II engine?