FAA instrument rating or JAR?
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FAA instrument rating or JAR?
Hi,
I really want to do an instrument rating to make full use of my aircraft. I understand with an FAA instrument rating that my aircraft will have to be on an FAA (n) registration, this however is an advantage when it comes to servicing so I have found out.
Would anyone be able to lend thier opinion on which instrument course to do. I do appreciate that the JAR instrument rating is a lot more time consuming.
Thanks
I really want to do an instrument rating to make full use of my aircraft. I understand with an FAA instrument rating that my aircraft will have to be on an FAA (n) registration, this however is an advantage when it comes to servicing so I have found out.
Would anyone be able to lend thier opinion on which instrument course to do. I do appreciate that the JAR instrument rating is a lot more time consuming.
Thanks
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I have PM'd Nole but I would like to add that while there are countless threads (here and at flyer.co.uk and other places) on the FAA PPL/IR route, a lot of the info in them is very wrong.
I am doing this route myself now and while there are certain very specific people posting here and elsewhere who I just happen to know are up to date, a lot of the rest of the info isn't of much value.
And that's before one gets to the (few) people posting here who make what appear to be deliberately misleading statements e.g. claiming that the CAA is about to clamp down on FAA licenses or aircraft, etc, etc.
If one wants to do the lot in the USA, then you (supposedly) get a VISA and s0d off to Florida for a couple of months and do the lot there. That is the simplest way to do it - if you can find the time away.
It is the UK route which is more complicated, and doubly so if one wants to do it in a G-reg plane, or in a G-reg plane initially which will go N-reg later...
I am doing this route myself now and while there are certain very specific people posting here and elsewhere who I just happen to know are up to date, a lot of the rest of the info isn't of much value.
And that's before one gets to the (few) people posting here who make what appear to be deliberately misleading statements e.g. claiming that the CAA is about to clamp down on FAA licenses or aircraft, etc, etc.
If one wants to do the lot in the USA, then you (supposedly) get a VISA and s0d off to Florida for a couple of months and do the lot there. That is the simplest way to do it - if you can find the time away.
It is the UK route which is more complicated, and doubly so if one wants to do it in a G-reg plane, or in a G-reg plane initially which will go N-reg later...
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Might be worth checking that your aircraft is n-registrable and, if so, what is the price of the re-registration and factoring that into your calculations (or factoring the price of changing plane).
For various reasons, having obtained my FAA IR with the intention of going N-reg, I am now looking at JAA IR as the only realistic option if I want to stick with my current aircraft
For various reasons, having obtained my FAA IR with the intention of going N-reg, I am now looking at JAA IR as the only realistic option if I want to stick with my current aircraft
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nole
If the aircraft has been on the 'N' reg then getting it back on is fairly straight forward. You'll have to get a U.S trust set up but there are people who specialise in doing it all for you - have a look at http://www.southernaircraft.co.uk for more details.
As for the IR. Yes, a lot easier than the JAR route in terms of ground exam preparation - it's a lot more practical based (which is how it should be - let's be honest). Best way to do it is pick a school that can provide you with the I-20 paperwork that will enable an M-1 visa to be issued.
Naples Air Centre in Florida seems to be a firm favourote with a lot of people with a high succes rate. I went to California and used Rainbow Air/Angel City Flyers. You'll probably find recommendations for both on these forums.
What I would advise if you go down this road however is to 'team up' with somebody who has experience of the European IFR environment after you qualify for a few hours at least. There are a lot of procedural differences in terms of airspace, clearances, services available etc between the two environments which you wil probably need explaining, the only way of really learning of which is by experience.
If the aircraft has been on the 'N' reg then getting it back on is fairly straight forward. You'll have to get a U.S trust set up but there are people who specialise in doing it all for you - have a look at http://www.southernaircraft.co.uk for more details.
As for the IR. Yes, a lot easier than the JAR route in terms of ground exam preparation - it's a lot more practical based (which is how it should be - let's be honest). Best way to do it is pick a school that can provide you with the I-20 paperwork that will enable an M-1 visa to be issued.
Naples Air Centre in Florida seems to be a firm favourote with a lot of people with a high succes rate. I went to California and used Rainbow Air/Angel City Flyers. You'll probably find recommendations for both on these forums.
What I would advise if you go down this road however is to 'team up' with somebody who has experience of the European IFR environment after you qualify for a few hours at least. There are a lot of procedural differences in terms of airspace, clearances, services available etc between the two environments which you wil probably need explaining, the only way of really learning of which is by experience.
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As for the IR. Yes, a lot easier than the JAR route in terms of ground exam preparation - it's a lot more practical based (which is how it should be - let's be honest).
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Umm..................interesting question.
First the ground exams. The FAA exams covered everything that I'm likely to use in the type of flying that I do. In addition they were relatively easy to study for, and the examinations themselves could be done when I wanted to do them.
On the other hand I've seen the JAR syllabus (we've got a guy in work doing his ATPL's at the moment) and there is so much crap in there you'd never use flying around Europe to make it ridiculous.
Coupled with this I have a proper day job, with only a limited amount of leave I can take - I'm not wasting that doing residential courses followed by traditional grammar school type exams at a time and place dictated by somebody sat in an office at the Belgrano. It's just not possible in my position. I work with other people who also have a leave entitlement. We're not that flush with staff (What do you think this is - NATS
)
As for the Flying:
In the day job I see a lot of CAAFU initial IR tests, which all follow the same set piece 'script' as it were. It's the same - day in, day out - I know what's going to happen from the minute the aircraft gets pre-noted. No doubt the candidate does too.
As an FAA IR holder I can only relate my own experience, which was the examiner testing me and then pushing that little bit further - a learning experience in itself. When he found I was competent in something he moved on to something else. I never knew what was coming next. Coupled with the Oral (2 hours) the flight test (2.5 hours) was probably amongst the most demanding but enjoyable flying I've ever done.
Hopefully the above cover the 'impartial observer' bit too
First the ground exams. The FAA exams covered everything that I'm likely to use in the type of flying that I do. In addition they were relatively easy to study for, and the examinations themselves could be done when I wanted to do them.
On the other hand I've seen the JAR syllabus (we've got a guy in work doing his ATPL's at the moment) and there is so much crap in there you'd never use flying around Europe to make it ridiculous.
Coupled with this I have a proper day job, with only a limited amount of leave I can take - I'm not wasting that doing residential courses followed by traditional grammar school type exams at a time and place dictated by somebody sat in an office at the Belgrano. It's just not possible in my position. I work with other people who also have a leave entitlement. We're not that flush with staff (What do you think this is - NATS
)As for the Flying:
In the day job I see a lot of CAAFU initial IR tests, which all follow the same set piece 'script' as it were. It's the same - day in, day out - I know what's going to happen from the minute the aircraft gets pre-noted. No doubt the candidate does too.
As an FAA IR holder I can only relate my own experience, which was the examiner testing me and then pushing that little bit further - a learning experience in itself. When he found I was competent in something he moved on to something else. I never knew what was coming next. Coupled with the Oral (2 hours) the flight test (2.5 hours) was probably amongst the most demanding but enjoyable flying I've ever done.
Hopefully the above cover the 'impartial observer' bit too
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 17th Nov 2004 at 21:35.
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Good answer, Chilli 
It is MHO though, since your profile states "CPL/IR" and your occupation "ATCO", that it is relevant to this thread that you've never flown with a CAAFU examiner, never done the JAA IR groundschool, and never (let's be honest ) been briefed by a CAAFU examiner as to standards to be maintained, that comments like:
shouldn't be there...
I, for one, wouldn't comment about an FAA-IR checkride if I had never done one.
It seems to me that here and at Flyer Forums those with FAA IRs seem to have a bit of a chip on their shoulders -- a chip they seem determined to share with CAA/JAA IR holders...
FTR, I ain't hungry
It is MHO though, since your profile states "CPL/IR" and your occupation "ATCO", that it is relevant to this thread that you've never flown with a CAAFU examiner, never done the JAA IR groundschool, and never (let's be honest
) been briefed by a CAAFU examiner as to standards to be maintained, that comments like:
No doubt the candidate does too.
I, for one, wouldn't comment about an FAA-IR checkride if I had never done one.
It seems to me that here and at Flyer Forums those with FAA IRs seem to have a bit of a chip on their shoulders -- a chip they seem determined to share with CAA/JAA IR holders...
FTR, I ain't hungry
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Rustle - you asked an honest question, which was answered honestly. If you don't like the answer then I'm sorry but - tough.
No chip at all in my case. If I had the time to do it then I'd love to, but unfortuanatly I don't. That coupled with the fact that the aircraft I'm required to fly don't have a 'G' on the side. Coming out with such statements however I could say conversely that the CAA PPL/IR tries to come across with an unwarranted superiority complex. I could - but I won't.
(I've flown with and worked with both varieties. There's a few JAR IR holders who haven't impressed me).
Whether I've been briefed by a CAAFU examiner or not I don't think is relevant, and don't see how you think it is. I do however know the standards required from such examiners (when you get to a certain point in professional aviation you discover it's a very small world).
And for your interest, I have done the UK PPL/IR groundschool (pre-cursor to JAR) - just never took the exams for the reasons stated (that plus working in a not particularly convenient part of the country).
Not even hungry for a small slice of pie?
No chip at all in my case. If I had the time to do it then I'd love to, but unfortuanatly I don't. That coupled with the fact that the aircraft I'm required to fly don't have a 'G' on the side. Coming out with such statements however I could say conversely that the CAA PPL/IR tries to come across with an unwarranted superiority complex. I could - but I won't.
(I've flown with and worked with both varieties. There's a few JAR IR holders who haven't impressed me).
Whether I've been briefed by a CAAFU examiner or not I don't think is relevant, and don't see how you think it is. I do however know the standards required from such examiners (when you get to a certain point in professional aviation you discover it's a very small world).
And for your interest, I have done the UK PPL/IR groundschool (pre-cursor to JAR) - just never took the exams for the reasons stated (that plus working in a not particularly convenient part of the country).
Not even hungry for a small slice of pie?
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 17th Nov 2004 at 22:10.
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Whether I've been briefed by a CAAFU examiner or not I don't think is relevant, and don't see how you think it is.
During the preflight brief the CAAFU examiner needs to ascertain that there is nothing unclear about his/her expectations of the flight -- he/she is self-loading freight, will comment little and direct even less.
This understanding is critical, lest we in CAA/JAA land endup with a situation where the candidate blames an inflight bad decision on, say, an interruption from the RHS, or an unclear instruction...
Given the US' preoccupation with litigation I am surprised they don't prebrief to the same extent.
(that plus working in a not particularly convenient part of the country).
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It is interesting to me that the pilots with whom I did my FAA IR in the US complained that the FAA written exam was full of irrelevant details.
Can anyone who has done both tell me what information in the CAA IR ground school would be important/useful for an FAA IR pilot over and above what they would have covered in the FAA exam and oral, assuming a private pilot flying a SEP in Europe? I'm not suggesting there isn't anything; I'm genuinely interested.
Can anyone who has done both tell me what information in the CAA IR ground school would be important/useful for an FAA IR pilot over and above what they would have covered in the FAA exam and oral, assuming a private pilot flying a SEP in Europe? I'm not suggesting there isn't anything; I'm genuinely interested.
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Rustle
Smart arse comments like that do you no credit. I was, as I said, in an inconvenient place at the time. You don't know everything, about me, my past, or my work history. Debate is good - but don't get personal.
Smart arse comments like that do you no credit. I was, as I said, in an inconvenient place at the time. You don't know everything, about me, my past, or my work history. Debate is good - but don't get personal.
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 17th Nov 2004 at 23:23.
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I can see that people who have FAA certifications might be a bit evangelistic when spreading the good news to some less civilised parts of the world , but chip on our shoulders? No doubt I've picked up a few notches over the years, but being able to easily get and use an FAA IR is one of the truly uplifting things around. Don't waste your time and money with the JAA; N-reg planes and FAA certificates for all 
No chip here!
There is a lot of nonsense on this web site (probably some from me) but Chilli\'s post was one of the best for some time. Well presented and I learned something from it.
, but chip on our shoulders? No doubt I've picked up a few notches over the years, but being able to easily get and use an FAA IR is one of the truly uplifting things around. Don't waste your time and money with the JAA; N-reg planes and FAA certificates for all No chip here!
There is a lot of nonsense on this web site (probably some from me) but Chilli\'s post was one of the best for some time. Well presented and I learned something from it.
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"A bit evangelistic"!
That's the understatement of the millennium
On some internet fora discussing instrument flight it's like being at a Billy Graham convention once the FAA is mentioned (usually by reply 2)
That's the understatement of the millennium
On some internet fora discussing instrument flight it's like being at a Billy Graham convention once the FAA is mentioned (usually by reply 2)
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Don't fight us rustle, join us, dedicate your life to the teachings of The Book (FAR/AIM) and the almighty Administrator (sorry, forgotten his/her name). You know it makes sense, resistance is futile blah blah blah.
How about you send me all the money you would have saved by doing an FAA IR instead of that CAA one and I'll spend it on some Mission to the UK? First class all the way of course as all evangelists do..
How about you send me all the money you would have saved by doing an FAA IR instead of that CAA one and I'll spend it on some Mission to the UK? First class all the way of course as all evangelists do..
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lol, hear them on frequency all the time in the Deep South, one wonders how those folk pass the 'must speak and understand English' test. You might have something there rustle, FAA standards are lower - but it's obviously infectious as you also hear speedbird/virgin pilots getting just as sloppy when talking to ATC in US airspace.