FAA instrument rating or JAR?
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The only reason I don't have a JAA IR (and fine qualification it is)is costs.
£280 / hr ME IR training x 7
£190 / hr Sim x 10
£250 landing fees
£500 accomodation
£3000 ground exams
£1000 exam fees
And this would be to convert an existing IR in the minimum time.
For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option. The IMC is a good qualification in the UK but it limits you to the UK (pretty much).
An FAA IR from scratch in the US will cost $6,555 (£3800) plus flights but including accomodation, ground exams and everything, and can be completed in 14 days......
£280 / hr ME IR training x 7
£190 / hr Sim x 10
£250 landing fees
£500 accomodation
£3000 ground exams
£1000 exam fees
And this would be to convert an existing IR in the minimum time.
For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option. The IMC is a good qualification in the UK but it limits you to the UK (pretty much).
An FAA IR from scratch in the US will cost $6,555 (£3800) plus flights but including accomodation, ground exams and everything, and can be completed in 14 days......
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Since CAA/JAA-IR bashing is such a favorite pastime here, I'll save my time defending them yet again and just link back to threads where these same issues have been thrashed out time and time before...
Costs: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...19#post1518019
I know facts really get in the way of ranting about UK flying costs, but I'll risk posting that link anyway
It is refreshing to see that irony is not only lost on Americans, but on individuals of any nationality who hold American qualifications as well 
Costs: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...19#post1518019
I know facts really get in the way of ranting about UK flying costs, but I'll risk posting that link anyway
It is refreshing to see that irony is not only lost on Americans, but on individuals of any nationality who hold American qualifications as well
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Now come on rustle, you did a fine job (and still are) of bashing all FAA certificate holders, it really doesn't become you. I don't see any irony in your original posts and am wondering where the chip really lies.
You can still come over to the dark side any time you want
just like a lot of your fellow CAA certificate holders do all the time. I'm not sure how many go the other way, how many fingers do you have?
You can still come over to the dark side any time you want
just like a lot of your fellow CAA certificate holders do all the time. I'm not sure how many go the other way, how many fingers do you have?
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I don't undertand that table, but then again I don't have the JAA ground exams 
The costs I qouted were a direct quote from a certain establishment at EGHH, one of the cheaper ones, who have a very good reputation.
So for me to convert, would cost £8,610 in pounds sterling. Of course the £280 per hour is for a BE76 and not an arrow.
Doh, I just forgot, there is the license issue fee as well
We only give as good as we get and you know we're only jealous
The costs I qouted were a direct quote from a certain establishment at EGHH, one of the cheaper ones, who have a very good reputation.
So for me to convert, would cost £8,610 in pounds sterling. Of course the £280 per hour is for a BE76 and not an arrow.
Doh, I just forgot, there is the license issue fee as well
We only give as good as we get
and you know we're only jealous
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Those figures given maybe lifted from another web site but they are not realistic for cost of FAA ratings. A private for $4k is no longer really doable in the real world of flying schools, I suspect there is a nice disclaimer on there saying 'minimum hours only'.
It's also quite easy in FAA land to get your IR for less cost than it does to get your private. Think along the lines of only 15 hours dual instruction required, the rest can be flown under the hood with a safety pilot sharing the costs. You don't need an instructor sitting next to you all the time when just going round and round in the hold and when shooting approaches. You might not like it, but thems are the regs. Heck, an IMC rating can be obtained for 15 hours total, and that lets you do a lot of scary stuff. So perhaps one should find out about reality on the US side of the Atlantic before spouting forth?
So, in the same spirit (how about that for irony) ----- from what I can tell, people b!tch and moan far more about the ground requirements of CAA/JAA IRs, not the flight requirements. Having to take time off work to do groundschool is of significant cost to many, and for some more than the cost of the flying. This should be factored into total cost.
Of course I don't really care, I have my religeon and am happy with it.
But more important, why is the weather so miserable where I am now in England?
It's also quite easy in FAA land to get your IR for less cost than it does to get your private. Think along the lines of only 15 hours dual instruction required, the rest can be flown under the hood with a safety pilot sharing the costs. You don't need an instructor sitting next to you all the time when just going round and round in the hold and when shooting approaches. You might not like it, but thems are the regs. Heck, an IMC rating can be obtained for 15 hours total, and that lets you do a lot of scary stuff. So perhaps one should find out about reality on the US side of the Atlantic before spouting forth?
So, in the same spirit (how about that for irony)
----- from what I can tell, people b!tch and moan far more about the ground requirements of CAA/JAA IRs, not the flight requirements. Having to take time off work to do groundschool is of significant cost to many, and for some more than the cost of the flying. This should be factored into total cost.Of course I don't really care, I have my religeon and am happy with it.
But more important, why is the weather so miserable where I am now in England?
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slim, the real irony comes of the fact that someone inevitably goes off on one about how CAA/JAA-IR holders put down the FAA-IR, then spends the next 8 pages on PPRuNe or Flyer forums telling the world about all the problems with the CAA/JAA method -- whether it is too much groundschool, too expensive, not enough carryover hours from IMC training -- that's ironic, don't you think (apologies to Alanis )
)
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A lot of people like to knock the FAA IR because it is supposedly easy to get. However, looking at the typical UK scenario of an IMCR pilot going to the FAA IR:
It would be very rare to get an IMCR in just 15hrs dual training, such that one can fly to the privileges. 20-25 is more like it. And I bet most will be owner pilots who do plenty of hours. (Every PPL/IR I know is an owner or in a small group of IR/ATPL pilots)
Most IMCR holders let it lapse without using it "for real". (Most new PPLs lapse too, as it happens...)
So I would suggest that of the relatively small % of IMCR pilots who go on to do the FAA IR, most of them will have plenty of IMC hours to easily satisfy the 40hrs FAA experience requirement, they will have the 15hrs dual instruction in their logbook already (from the IMCR training) and with additional IR training of say 10-20 hours they will have a perfectly solid load of training. And this is without going anywhere near a simulator.
Very few people go to USA to get an PPL/IR from scratch, and I don't think one could anyway without clocking up some 200-300 hours cross country. Again, every PPL/IR I know flies a load of hours - they are very experienced pilots who are rarely found stuck under the LTMA at 2400ft. I do 150hrs/year which is plenty but all of them do a lot more than that.
The people that DO get an IR in the fewest possible hours, with the minimum relevant (to IFR flight) experience, are people doing an ATPL. Perhaps it is in recognition of this that the JAA IR makes people work a lot harder on the ground, knowing they will do the least flying they possibly can. And at the cost of flying a twin on one of the ATPL courses one can hardly blame them for not doing unnecessary flying. Of the people I know who want to be airline pilots, very few can afford to fly frequently themselves, so their IR training is likely to be the only time they get to be P1, alone, in IMC.
In the end, the proof is in the lack of accidents. There isn't a problem. If there was, I bet the CAA would clamp down. Presently, they have no "safety" case for doing anything whatsoever. And we all know that "safety" is like child pornography - one can get anything passed just by mentioning it.
It would be very rare to get an IMCR in just 15hrs dual training, such that one can fly to the privileges. 20-25 is more like it. And I bet most will be owner pilots who do plenty of hours. (Every PPL/IR I know is an owner or in a small group of IR/ATPL pilots)
Most IMCR holders let it lapse without using it "for real". (Most new PPLs lapse too, as it happens...)
So I would suggest that of the relatively small % of IMCR pilots who go on to do the FAA IR, most of them will have plenty of IMC hours to easily satisfy the 40hrs FAA experience requirement, they will have the 15hrs dual instruction in their logbook already (from the IMCR training) and with additional IR training of say 10-20 hours they will have a perfectly solid load of training. And this is without going anywhere near a simulator.
Very few people go to USA to get an PPL/IR from scratch, and I don't think one could anyway without clocking up some 200-300 hours cross country. Again, every PPL/IR I know flies a load of hours - they are very experienced pilots who are rarely found stuck under the LTMA at 2400ft. I do 150hrs/year which is plenty but all of them do a lot more than that.
The people that DO get an IR in the fewest possible hours, with the minimum relevant (to IFR flight) experience, are people doing an ATPL. Perhaps it is in recognition of this that the JAA IR makes people work a lot harder on the ground, knowing they will do the least flying they possibly can. And at the cost of flying a twin on one of the ATPL courses one can hardly blame them for not doing unnecessary flying. Of the people I know who want to be airline pilots, very few can afford to fly frequently themselves, so their IR training is likely to be the only time they get to be P1, alone, in IMC.
In the end, the proof is in the lack of accidents. There isn't a problem. If there was, I bet the CAA would clamp down. Presently, they have no "safety" case for doing anything whatsoever. And we all know that "safety" is like child pornography - one can get anything passed just by mentioning it.
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Rustle,
In fact the prebrief I experienced was extensive, and covered everything from the route, to emergencies real or simulated with the reminder that I was PIC not the examiner.
If I wanted any assistance, I was to explain what I wanted (in my case when doing turns under partial panel, I asked the examiner to give me magnetic compass headings to ensure I was not peaking out from under the hood). There was no problem asking up front as we both knew that partial panel was on the test.
The other area we discussed was the use of the autopilot. His view was its there use it if it helps, but he would ask me to disengage it if he thought the A/P was doing the flying not me. Fortunately I decided when to put it on and take it off.
The reason why the give a thorough briefing is to ensure that the pilot is clear of whats expected of him with a view to helping him pass the test.
I doubt whether litigous US lawyers are whats in the head of the examiners at the time.
During the preflight brief the CAAFU examiner needs to ascertain that there is nothing unclear about his/her expectations of the flight -- he/she is self-loading freight, will comment little and direct even less. This understanding is critical, lest we in CAA/JAA land endup with a situation where the candidate blames an inflight bad decision on, say, an interruption from the RHS, or an unclear instruction...
Given the US' preoccupation with litigation I am surprised they don't prebrief to the same extent.
Given the US' preoccupation with litigation I am surprised they don't prebrief to the same extent.
If I wanted any assistance, I was to explain what I wanted (in my case when doing turns under partial panel, I asked the examiner to give me magnetic compass headings to ensure I was not peaking out from under the hood). There was no problem asking up front as we both knew that partial panel was on the test.
The other area we discussed was the use of the autopilot. His view was its there use it if it helps, but he would ask me to disengage it if he thought the A/P was doing the flying not me. Fortunately I decided when to put it on and take it off.
The reason why the give a thorough briefing is to ensure that the pilot is clear of whats expected of him with a view to helping him pass the test.
I doubt whether litigous US lawyers are whats in the head of the examiners at the time.
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I cannot comment much on the FAA and JAA IRs. I have a Canadian Multi IFR rating but have done the JAA and FAA ground schools (or at least some of...). 90% of the content in the JAA sylabus is only useful for wiping your a***. The FAA and the Canadian IRs are more practical and to the point. I can't comment on the flying syllabus of the JAA and FAA IRs.
Chrisbl,
It's nice to know that the CAAFU allow the use of A/P. In Canada, you can get marked down on the IR test for not using the A/P at all, if available (Bad cockpi management). Autopilot is mandatory for (Commercial) single-pilot IFR over there.
Capt. Manuvar
Chrisbl,
It's nice to know that the CAAFU allow the use of A/P. In Canada, you can get marked down on the IR test for not using the A/P at all, if available (Bad cockpi management). Autopilot is mandatory for (Commercial) single-pilot IFR over there.
Capt. Manuvar
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Rustle,
I am seriously starting to get worried about you.
This is the second time in 2 days that you are moaning about FAA types having a chip on their shoulder.
What is your problem?
I hope to get my JAR IR in the near future.
I suspect it will depend on my willingness to spend money time and effort on the subject rather than flying prowess whether I succeed or not.
The same would probably apply to you if you wanted to get an FAA IR, if it was not for the fact that the FAA is happy for you to be issued with an IR on the basis of your JAR one, providing you have given a demonstration in a written test of your knowledge on the subject and their regulations.
Would I bother to get a JAR IR if I could exercise all the IR privileges in a G reg? Don't think so.
I am seriously starting to get worried about you.
This is the second time in 2 days that you are moaning about FAA types having a chip on their shoulder.
What is your problem?
I hope to get my JAR IR in the near future.
I suspect it will depend on my willingness to spend money time and effort on the subject rather than flying prowess whether I succeed or not.
The same would probably apply to you if you wanted to get an FAA IR, if it was not for the fact that the FAA is happy for you to be issued with an IR on the basis of your JAR one, providing you have given a demonstration in a written test of your knowledge on the subject and their regulations.
Would I bother to get a JAR IR if I could exercise all the IR privileges in a G reg? Don't think so.
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Well chaps, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say.
Anyone reading this thread will draw their own conclusions, but I haven't read here anyone criticise the FAA regime at all nor any US certificated flyers (except my obviously tongue-in-cheek reference to irony
), but a barrage of criticisms aimed at JAA...
Still. All good fun
Frank - healthy debate is good for you, so fear not
BTW, I ain't "moaning" - it is an observation, not a criticism
Anyone reading this thread will draw their own conclusions, but I haven't read here anyone criticise the FAA regime at all nor any US certificated flyers (except my obviously tongue-in-cheek reference to irony
), but a barrage of criticisms aimed at JAA...Still. All good fun
Frank - healthy debate is good for you, so fear not
BTW, I ain't "moaning" - it is an observation, not a criticism
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but I haven't read here anyone criticise the FAA regime at all nor any US certificated flyers (except my obviously tongue-in-cheek reference to irony ), but a barrage of criticisms aimed at JAA...
Peoples arguements of why they don't / do the JAA IR are all reasoned. For me its cost, for others its time. This is not bashing, just statements but for some reason you interpret this as "Bashing". Tell me about your childhood.......
All good fun though, maybe FAA boys and girls do it with a sense of humour?
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englishal -- posted 19th November 2004 08:39
All jokes aside, surely numeracy is a requirement for issuing an IR of any flavour?
I count 4. Maybe they've become so insidious people don't even realise they're doing it anymore...
None of them even attempt to dress themselves up as "humour"...
Here's a reminder:
Chilli Monster -- posted 17th November 2004 22:21
slim_slag -- posted 18th November 2004 09:29
englishal -- posted 18th November 2004 11:44
Capt. Manuvar -- posted 19th November 2004 00:43
Not sure who's deluded.
I'm certain it ain't me though
BTW, slim, missed this earlier:
My numbers in that table come from NAC's website -- I followed the link from their advert on PPRuNe -- they often get talked about on here so I assumed they knew how much it cost to train Stateside
You are deluded Rustle. Go back and review every post here, and look for the JAA IR bashing ones. Interesting that you will find none.
I count 4. Maybe they've become so insidious people don't even realise they're doing it anymore...
None of them even attempt to dress themselves up as "humour"...
Here's a reminder:
Chilli Monster -- posted 17th November 2004 22:21
On the other hand I've seen the JAR syllabus (we've got a guy in work doing his ATPL's at the moment) and there is so much crap in there you'd never use flying around Europe to make it ridiculous.
Don't waste your time and money with the JAA
For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option.
90% of the content in the JAA sylabus is only useful for wiping your a***.
Not sure who's deluded.
I'm certain it ain't me though
BTW, slim, missed this earlier:
So perhaps one should find out about reality on the US side of the Atlantic before spouting forth?
Last edited by rustle; 23rd Nov 2004 at 21:43.
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Hmm....a bit of paranoia me thinks. You've quoted everyone out of context.
When taken in context becomes:
I don't think people were putting down the holy JAA IR, the point was being made that for a PRIVATE pilot who isn't an airline Wannabe, then the FAA IR is a suitable alternative, better than the IMC rating.
Still, you carry on tracking your single needles, and I'll keep flying my GPS approaches, then we'll both be happy
For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option.
The only reason I don't have a JAA IR (and fine qualification it is)is costs......blah........For the aircraft owner / PPL who wants to improve their skills, the FAA IR is the only real option.
Still, you carry on tracking your single needles, and I'll keep flying my GPS approaches, then we'll both be happy
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Paranoid and deluded -- I'd better apply for my visa immediately
Hopefully not out of context:
you can't resist can you?
Every opportunity imply the UK rating is in some way "backward".
We'll only both be happy when that stops happening here and elsewhere...
Rest assured the annual renewal (yes, annual renewal ) allows you or even encourages you to use not only steam driven instruments for situational awareness, but any/all IFR approved kit at your disposal.
Hopefully not out of context:
Still, you carry on tracking your single needles, and I'll keep flying my GPS approaches, then we'll both be happy
Every opportunity imply the UK rating is in some way "backward".
We'll only both be happy when that stops happening here and elsewhere...
Rest assured the annual renewal (yes, annual renewal
) allows you or even encourages you to use not only steam driven instruments for situational awareness, but any/all IFR approved kit at your disposal.
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you can't resist can you?
NO, I did not imply that the JAA IR was inferior, thats all in your brain!!! Single needle tracking is far harder than other things (I've just done a load of it in the states), and I never said it wasn't!!! My point was that you do your thing and I'll do mine.
Right, can we let this lie please, I think that the message isn't getting across in the written word.
Time for a beer
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Morning rustle, I've been annoying them on other forums, have not had a chance to get back here
Think you need to fully quote me.....
I have no idea who you are but you seem to spend a lot of your spare time doing good things for GA in the UK, which is why I said your obvious FAA certificate holder bashing did not become you. I also accept you took the numbers off the NAC site in good faith. I still think they are not realistic, perhaps NAC could publish the median and average/standard deviation times to completion for all their ab-initio private pilot. Actually I don't expect them to do that, it is a very competitive market and most places quote minimum times so people have a good comparison. However there are some that quote reasonable times. Average time to PP-ASEL in FAA land is around 55 hours.
Anyway, next time you bash FAA folk I will let others bash back Maybe...
Think you need to fully quote me.....
I have no idea who you are but you seem to spend a lot of your spare time doing good things for GA in the UK, which is why I said your obvious FAA certificate holder bashing did not become you. I also accept you took the numbers off the NAC site in good faith. I still think they are not realistic, perhaps NAC could publish the median and average/standard deviation times to completion for all their ab-initio private pilot. Actually I don't expect them to do that, it is a very competitive market and most places quote minimum times so people have a good comparison. However there are some that quote reasonable times. Average time to PP-ASEL in FAA land is around 55 hours.
Anyway, next time you bash FAA folk I will let others bash back
Maybe...
Last edited by slim_slag; 23rd Nov 2004 at 08:07.
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I started this thread lying actually, I already have an FAA IR which I did this summer after I finished my A-level exams.
I would never knock the JAA IR because I know people who have it.
However....I do think that they (jaa IR pilots) need to start looking forward a bit more, I wouldn't mind betting that 75% of JAA Inst. rated pilots don't know how to load an approach on a GPS. More to the point they wouldn't do it anyway. Even airline pilots that I talk to frown upon the GPS. I don't know any different really because when I started flying I was very used to lots of computer screens on the instrument panel. I fly into a farm strip using a pre-planned approach using my GPS, HSI and local radar people. How many JAR IR rated pilots would do this!??? You say you wouldn't do it because it's dangerous or something but I think it's really because you were not shown how.
ALL SAID....if you want to be a pro-pilot (airline person) in europe then do the JAR ATPL
I would never knock the JAA IR because I know people who have it.
However....I do think that they (jaa IR pilots) need to start looking forward a bit more, I wouldn't mind betting that 75% of JAA Inst. rated pilots don't know how to load an approach on a GPS. More to the point they wouldn't do it anyway. Even airline pilots that I talk to frown upon the GPS. I don't know any different really because when I started flying I was very used to lots of computer screens on the instrument panel. I fly into a farm strip using a pre-planned approach using my GPS, HSI and local radar people. How many JAR IR rated pilots would do this!??? You say you wouldn't do it because it's dangerous or something but I think it's really because you were not shown how.
ALL SAID....if you want to be a pro-pilot (airline person) in europe then do the JAR ATPL