Sheffield City
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Sheffield City
Here's a bit of polite advice for the management at Sheffield City.
I did a little jaunt up to the Peak District yesterday and thought I'd stop at Sheffield for fuel and food. So I phoned for PPR. I was told that, as I hadn't been there before, I needed to fax them a signed terms and conditions form before they could accept me. I didn't have access to a fax machine at the time and had no burning desire to go there anyway.
So Sherburn got my money.
Its your airport and you can do what you like and the staff were polite about it. But this kind of policy smacks of blind following of conservative legal advice without sufficient thought to the commercial effects on your market. It does not encourage GA to pop by and give you its business; not everyone plans flights much in advance, especially on Sundays. AFAIK no other GA airport requires this other than for out of hours use. Its not even good law - there are plenty of other ways of effectively imposing an indemnity clause as part of a contract if that's the issue.
I did a little jaunt up to the Peak District yesterday and thought I'd stop at Sheffield for fuel and food. So I phoned for PPR. I was told that, as I hadn't been there before, I needed to fax them a signed terms and conditions form before they could accept me. I didn't have access to a fax machine at the time and had no burning desire to go there anyway.
So Sherburn got my money.
Its your airport and you can do what you like and the staff were polite about it. But this kind of policy smacks of blind following of conservative legal advice without sufficient thought to the commercial effects on your market. It does not encourage GA to pop by and give you its business; not everyone plans flights much in advance, especially on Sundays. AFAIK no other GA airport requires this other than for out of hours use. Its not even good law - there are plenty of other ways of effectively imposing an indemnity clause as part of a contract if that's the issue.
Avoid imitations
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Oh dear, how silly. PPR by phone is one thing but.....
Last one out of Sheffield please switch off the lights.....
Last one out of Sheffield please switch off the lights.....
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You are making the assumption that the operators want the airport to survive. I understand that according to local newspaper articles and some on the internet there is some kind of strange deal between the council and operators that results in the operators getting ownership of an extremely valuable business park for one pound if the airport is shown to be a failure. If this is true, there is not much incentive for them to make it a success is there?
Does anyone have the complete facts?
Does anyone have the complete facts?
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I was a bit annoyed when they asked me to do it the 1st time I went there but I think they have to do it not only for insurance but to ensure you have read the joining details which are quite restrictive, there are no circuits, no visiting students and very strict joining procedures because of the fact it is in the middle of a City.
After you go for the 1st time you don't need to do the fax again. Although it is a pain in the ar$e for the 1st time, it is probably better in the long run that it is done that way and maybe other fields with NIMBY problems should do the same as there is nothing worse for them than a new visitor flying straight over the biggest complainers house!
After you go for the 1st time you don't need to do the fax again. Although it is a pain in the ar$e for the 1st time, it is probably better in the long run that it is done that way and maybe other fields with NIMBY problems should do the same as there is nothing worse for them than a new visitor flying straight over the biggest complainers house!
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It is normally worth phoning for PPR in advance although nice just to drop in too (brings in landing fees/ sells fuel/ life blood of an airport etc).
The joining procedures (Fixed and Rotary) are not so complex that a PPL cannot handle them without prior briefing (its on the outside of a City (right on the City limits in fact) and there is no restricted area around, so actually easier than Denham/ Fairoaks/ Blackpool/ Leeds Heli/ Sydney Bankstown/ etc.
This is of course what flight guides and approach plates are for.
The reason may lie in the assumptions about liabilities of the airport in the event of damage ?? (see AOPA December magazine).
I don't want to say anymore in an open forum as one of the resident pilots has just had notice to quit served for being 'difficult' in writing (reported in local paper so public info).
PM is you want more.
The joining procedures (Fixed and Rotary) are not so complex that a PPL cannot handle them without prior briefing (its on the outside of a City (right on the City limits in fact) and there is no restricted area around, so actually easier than Denham/ Fairoaks/ Blackpool/ Leeds Heli/ Sydney Bankstown/ etc.
This is of course what flight guides and approach plates are for.
The reason may lie in the assumptions about liabilities of the airport in the event of damage ?? (see AOPA December magazine).
I don't want to say anymore in an open forum as one of the resident pilots has just had notice to quit served for being 'difficult' in writing (reported in local paper so public info).
PM is you want more.
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If they have joining procedures, they can put them in the AIP and flight guides and I will read them. I am even happy to confirm, verbally, when phoning for PPR that I have done so. The AIP says they require £1m insurance cover, which I have. I am also willing to confirm that when calling for PPR and I carry a certificate in my aircraft to prove it.
I agree that the problem is likely to be that the airport operators want to impose an exclusion of liability of some kind. Some lawyer has rightly said that courts don't look kindly on exclusion clauses, will hesitate before implying them into verbal contracts and, when faced with an exclusion clause in standard terms and conditions, will often only give effect to that clause where its existence has been brought to the attention of the other party to the contract before the contract is entered into.
But the job of management is to take that advice and find a way to incorporate it into their procedures in a way which doesn't harm their business. My point is that the fax procedure isn't the way. It would, for instance, be 99% as effective to include a line in the AIP and flight guides along the lines of "Use of the airport is subject to the airport's terms and conditions which you are deemed to accept when landing. The terms and conditions are available from [www.whatever] and include certain exclusions of liability which you are advised to read before using the airport."
QNH1013 - if you are right, that is just depressing.
I agree that the problem is likely to be that the airport operators want to impose an exclusion of liability of some kind. Some lawyer has rightly said that courts don't look kindly on exclusion clauses, will hesitate before implying them into verbal contracts and, when faced with an exclusion clause in standard terms and conditions, will often only give effect to that clause where its existence has been brought to the attention of the other party to the contract before the contract is entered into.
But the job of management is to take that advice and find a way to incorporate it into their procedures in a way which doesn't harm their business. My point is that the fax procedure isn't the way. It would, for instance, be 99% as effective to include a line in the AIP and flight guides along the lines of "Use of the airport is subject to the airport's terms and conditions which you are deemed to accept when landing. The terms and conditions are available from [www.whatever] and include certain exclusions of liability which you are advised to read before using the airport."
QNH1013 - if you are right, that is just depressing.
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For Sheffield:
"PPR by telephone or Fax. Radio PPR will not be accepted"
It seems pretty straightforward to me. Time was, you couldn't take an SEP aircraft into Sheffield at all.
If you are really concerned about Sheffield getting your support (which they need by the way) call them , fill in the fax form (dead easy) and arrange to visit them. You only have to send the fax the first time.
It's a great airport, very close to the city centre (not many of those left) and with very friendly ATC and staff.
I'm not a resident.
"PPR by telephone or Fax. Radio PPR will not be accepted"
It seems pretty straightforward to me. Time was, you couldn't take an SEP aircraft into Sheffield at all.
If you are really concerned about Sheffield getting your support (which they need by the way) call them , fill in the fax form (dead easy) and arrange to visit them. You only have to send the fax the first time.
It's a great airport, very close to the city centre (not many of those left) and with very friendly ATC and staff.
I'm not a resident.
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Seems like the regs are a bit hit and miss with regards to Sheffield. Drop in a couple of times a year for a pit stop and never had a problem arranging it over the RT. Never once been asked to arrange PPR by fax.
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QNH has hit the nail on the head, the land is worth more to the operators as a buisness park then as an airport but they can't just close it otherwise the council will do their nut!
However if it fails as an airport the council will put their hands up and hand it over. That is why the operators are cutting the runway in half but not closing it. It is why they are building offices on the climb out - it won't stop you flying but you would be mad to do it! It is also the reason the operators are trying to reduce the car parking that each of the clubs/schools have, so as to limit buisness.
Stinks if you ask me
CBK
However if it fails as an airport the council will put their hands up and hand it over. That is why the operators are cutting the runway in half but not closing it. It is why they are building offices on the climb out - it won't stop you flying but you would be mad to do it! It is also the reason the operators are trying to reduce the car parking that each of the clubs/schools have, so as to limit buisness.
Stinks if you ask me
CBK
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A friend of mine was pricing a job for one of the firms on the airport business park. He got a good look at the 'chopped up' runway plans with the proposed siting of the office units on what was half of Sheffields runway.
Is anyone aware if these plans are in the public domain, or have been submitted to planning?
(Or has my mate had a sneak preview!)
Is anyone aware if these plans are in the public domain, or have been submitted to planning?
(Or has my mate had a sneak preview!)
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They are pretty much in the public domain, as the local paper carries pages on the subject each week.
Local opinion is divided. There are really very few pilots in Sheffield (never been an airfield locally to train many) and the locals clearly do not want planes and rotors in their overhead on a sunny Sunday.
However I do not think the Local Authority have the belly for a fight to keep the place open. For them, there is a dream about creating new jobs in a plush new business park (real or not, remember people can commute in as well as get hired locally).
The real issue is about the public money that went into creating the airport in the first place (that would be our taxes then) and WHO agreed to sell the land for a peppercorn £1 if the airport was not a success?? if this point reported in the local press is true.
The region is poorly served for GA. After EGSY, Netherthorpe is small, grass and still not local. Gamston is a long drive. Sherburn and Nottingham further.
If the airport goes, or becomes untenable, then there is no other local alternative that can provide a realistic driver for GA in the region (notwithstanding the quality of these other fields, I was very happy at Gamston except for the bl@&dy drive there and back).
More GA pilots writing to the Local Authority to express their views would help. AOPA is on the case but more people telling Martin Robinson about situations will keep it high on the pile of other cases
There may be a situation around soon where the airport owners suggest that traffic shifts to Finningley (Doncaster-Sheffield-Robin Hood Airport). If this occurs, the costs of flying will almost certainly go up and IFR jet traffic will get priority.
I'm note sure what the solution is.
Check out Flyer for December on the topic too.
And the AOPA December magazine.
All letters to the Council members named from GA pilots would be welcome.
SOA,
h-r
Local opinion is divided. There are really very few pilots in Sheffield (never been an airfield locally to train many) and the locals clearly do not want planes and rotors in their overhead on a sunny Sunday.
However I do not think the Local Authority have the belly for a fight to keep the place open. For them, there is a dream about creating new jobs in a plush new business park (real or not, remember people can commute in as well as get hired locally).
The real issue is about the public money that went into creating the airport in the first place (that would be our taxes then) and WHO agreed to sell the land for a peppercorn £1 if the airport was not a success?? if this point reported in the local press is true.
The region is poorly served for GA. After EGSY, Netherthorpe is small, grass and still not local. Gamston is a long drive. Sherburn and Nottingham further.
If the airport goes, or becomes untenable, then there is no other local alternative that can provide a realistic driver for GA in the region (notwithstanding the quality of these other fields, I was very happy at Gamston except for the bl@&dy drive there and back).
More GA pilots writing to the Local Authority to express their views would help. AOPA is on the case but more people telling Martin Robinson about situations will keep it high on the pile of other cases
There may be a situation around soon where the airport owners suggest that traffic shifts to Finningley (Doncaster-Sheffield-Robin Hood Airport). If this occurs, the costs of flying will almost certainly go up and IFR jet traffic will get priority.
I'm note sure what the solution is.
Check out Flyer for December on the topic too.
And the AOPA December magazine.
All letters to the Council members named from GA pilots would be welcome.
SOA,
h-r
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I'm doing my PPL training at Sheffield, and I only really started because as h-r said, the area is poorly served for GA, especially to the west where the Pennines start. I don't have a lot of spare time and can't justify a 2-hour round trip drive on top of my flying time.
Not sure what can be done though - a few private pilots don't make much of a lobbying group, and planning permission for Finningley was the death-knell for any commercial operations from Sheffield
- Michael
Not sure what can be done though - a few private pilots don't make much of a lobbying group, and planning permission for Finningley was the death-knell for any commercial operations from Sheffield
- Michael
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Depends what you mean by commercial. There is a lot of scope for commercial heli-ops.
But then when EGSY was a commercial field the prices were higher than most major airports in Europe (I kept my first landing bill there as an example of how to get GA NOT to fly into an airport - you can land 8 times at Gamston for the same price).
So we don't want Easyjet & co there (they can go to Finningley) but a few King Airs, Learjets & etc would be OK. There are two hangers full of them at Gamston but I've heard Sheffield turning them down in the past.
Look at the expansion of Gamston today. 8 hangers full today and two more to be built, plus ground parking. Loads of movements.
Lobbying has to be on commercial grounds - ie the committment to keep the airport open to '07 at least. It was built with public money.
And if the current operators cannot make money from it, hand it over for a £1 to somebody who can.
Now there's a thought ....
But then when EGSY was a commercial field the prices were higher than most major airports in Europe (I kept my first landing bill there as an example of how to get GA NOT to fly into an airport - you can land 8 times at Gamston for the same price).
So we don't want Easyjet & co there (they can go to Finningley) but a few King Airs, Learjets & etc would be OK. There are two hangers full of them at Gamston but I've heard Sheffield turning them down in the past.
Look at the expansion of Gamston today. 8 hangers full today and two more to be built, plus ground parking. Loads of movements.
Lobbying has to be on commercial grounds - ie the committment to keep the airport open to '07 at least. It was built with public money.
And if the current operators cannot make money from it, hand it over for a £1 to somebody who can.
Now there's a thought ....
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The council will love the idea of a business park, as it will be seen to be creating business and prosperity. The real fact is that the majority of companies which will move in, will be just moving in from other parts of the region. The business park will generate no NEW business growth. Sheffield is packed full fo brown field sites ripe for development.
Incidentally, Sheffield University have just launched a new degree course "Aerospace Engineering with Private Pilot Instruction", which proudly states here that the instruction will be at Sheffield City airport.
Which, I wonder is the biggest wealth generator? - the University (which last I looked is one of the highest rated in Britain), or another of several dozen business parks - half of which in Sheffield are in severe need of bulldozing and rebuilding anyhow.
G
Which, I wonder is the biggest wealth generator? - the University (which last I looked is one of the highest rated in Britain), or another of several dozen business parks - half of which in Sheffield are in severe need of bulldozing and rebuilding anyhow.
G
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Depends if you mean "wealth" or "political capital".
The University (the best in the world, incidentally...) generates a lot of business for the City.
More business park will look like it's doing a lot even if it is just companies relocating from the City Centre or another area. There is a lot of other spaces that could be built on within the City without knocking out the airport.
Let's face it, it all comes down to land ownership. If you own the land (for a £1) then its a good investment. If you have to buy it, you make less profit.
Leeds are running a similiar course at EGSY but I heard from the fuelmaster a couple of weeks ago that they are moving out and a load of Sea King helicopters and S76's are moving in.
Perhaps Dylan can comment on the Leeds bit. It would be a pity if they were gone. More flights needed, not less.
Incidently, why, as noted in Flyer P16, has the airport been "... making substantial losses for seven years"?
The University (the best in the world, incidentally...) generates a lot of business for the City.
More business park will look like it's doing a lot even if it is just companies relocating from the City Centre or another area. There is a lot of other spaces that could be built on within the City without knocking out the airport.
Let's face it, it all comes down to land ownership. If you own the land (for a £1) then its a good investment. If you have to buy it, you make less profit.
Leeds are running a similiar course at EGSY but I heard from the fuelmaster a couple of weeks ago that they are moving out and a load of Sea King helicopters and S76's are moving in.
Perhaps Dylan can comment on the Leeds bit. It would be a pity if they were gone. More flights needed, not less.
Incidently, why, as noted in Flyer P16, has the airport been "... making substantial losses for seven years"?
Better red than ...
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For the GA community, esp. PPL training, how big an issue will the reduced runway be?
My understanding is that this is at the Western end (10 threshold) where there is a hugh stop area anyway, and mostly the RIU is 28.
I can see how it will stop the King Air/ Learjet/ Royal Flights and has no impact on us Rotary, but the revised length would only be about the same as Fairoaks/ Denham (813m//775m).
My understanding is that this is at the Western end (10 threshold) where there is a hugh stop area anyway, and mostly the RIU is 28.
I can see how it will stop the King Air/ Learjet/ Royal Flights and has no impact on us Rotary, but the revised length would only be about the same as Fairoaks/ Denham (813m//775m).