British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace
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British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace
British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace
Just contacted the CAA by phone to be told I must contact each individual country I want to fly to!
So the ones that i could find an email for I have(NL Germany Ireland France) and will post their replies here.
Does anyone else have any more info with ref, I would greatly appreciate it.
I Know
What we need is a european agency or two to save all this different country thing, oh yes JAA EASA, we already have them! it easy to be cynical isn't it?
Also on another thread there is talk of needing a radio cert to operate N reg with an FAA ppl outside USA airspace , is this true? and how long has it been so?
T2
Just contacted the CAA by phone to be told I must contact each individual country I want to fly to!
So the ones that i could find an email for I have(NL Germany Ireland France) and will post their replies here.
Does anyone else have any more info with ref, I would greatly appreciate it.
I Know
What we need is a european agency or two to save all this different country thing, oh yes JAA EASA, we already have them! it easy to be cynical isn't it?
Also on another thread there is talk of needing a radio cert to operate N reg with an FAA ppl outside USA airspace , is this true? and how long has it been so?
T2
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Wasn't this good enough for you?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=149075
I thought we had put this one to bed several times already...!
Fly...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=149075
I thought we had put this one to bed several times already...!
Fly...
Tunalic 2.
I was sure that this was the case but was told told firmly that I was wrong, in another thread. Be careful of some of the advice you read here.
I am still sure that the CAA is correct in saying that they cannot approve a pilot to fly a G Reg aircraft, without a UK licence, in another countrys airspace.
Was always thus when I was there in a previous life!
I strongly suggest that you get it in writing, direct from the CAA, and do what THEY advise!
UV
I was sure that this was the case but was told told firmly that I was wrong, in another thread. Be careful of some of the advice you read here.
I am still sure that the CAA is correct in saying that they cannot approve a pilot to fly a G Reg aircraft, without a UK licence, in another countrys airspace.
Was always thus when I was there in a previous life!
I strongly suggest that you get it in writing, direct from the CAA, and do what THEY advise!
UV
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thanks for the replies
looked at the links and no can't say that they do answer the question,
maybe i missed the important bit but the files don't make for easy reading do they and all seem to relate to FAA PPL in UK airspace daytime vfr only, which wasn't my question
the CAA weren't really interested, "ask the relevent authorities" which seems strange to me as it must be a really common question, guess it doesn't earn them money.
I read in flight that 3000 PPL 's were issued to UK residents last year, I would guess that a lot would be CAA/JAA PPL'S on holiday but it is only my guess surely they couldn't be all new PPL's, could they?
No replies from other CAA's yet
T2
looked at the links and no can't say that they do answer the question,
maybe i missed the important bit but the files don't make for easy reading do they and all seem to relate to FAA PPL in UK airspace daytime vfr only, which wasn't my question
the CAA weren't really interested, "ask the relevent authorities" which seems strange to me as it must be a really common question, guess it doesn't earn them money.
I read in flight that 3000 PPL 's were issued to UK residents last year, I would guess that a lot would be CAA/JAA PPL'S on holiday but it is only my guess surely they couldn't be all new PPL's, could they?
No replies from other CAA's yet
T2
The other CAAs will say, as they are bound to do under the Chicago Convention, that the UK CAA is the authority that determines who is and who is not permitted to fly a G-reg in their airspace on a private flight.
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Indeed bookworm. The legislation (in the shape of the ANO) is very clear on the subject. Random calls to the CAA tend to yeald rather variable results.
The only grey area in this matter is that whilst the ANO "renders valid" foreign licences for use in G-reg aircraft, the CAA does not issue individual certificates of validity as ICAO suggests that it should. This means that any foreign authority attempting to ascertain the position of a pilot "caught" flying a G-reg aircraft has no basis for proving their claim without reference to the ANO itself.
This doesn't change the underlying legal position, but can make for prolonged conversations with foreign functionaries.
2D
The only grey area in this matter is that whilst the ANO "renders valid" foreign licences for use in G-reg aircraft, the CAA does not issue individual certificates of validity as ICAO suggests that it should. This means that any foreign authority attempting to ascertain the position of a pilot "caught" flying a G-reg aircraft has no basis for proving their claim without reference to the ANO itself.
This doesn't change the underlying legal position, but can make for prolonged conversations with foreign functionaries.
2D
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What we need is a european agency or two to save all this different country thing, oh yes JAA EASA, we already have them! it easy to be cynical isn't it?
) for flights inside the UK, since it is perfectly entitled to reject that document:
Art.32(b) Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to recognize, for the purposes of flight above its own territory, certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its nationals by another contracting State.
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Just to restate the original question,
'British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace' (what is allowed and what paper work is required?)
MLS - 'I am probably putting my big feet in it, but ... what are you complaining about? Frankly, you should be happy that the CAA recognizes your FAA license (sorry, "certificate" ) for flights inside the UK, since it is perfectly entitled to reject that document:
Big feet are welcome but I wasn't complaining I was asking a question please see above
Beagle - 'Why don't you just get a JAA licence?'
why should I if I can do what I want on my FAA license? ( it doesnt cost me £145 every 5 years for starters)
2D - 'Random calls to the CAA tend to yeald rather variable results.
It wasn't random it was a perfectly reasonable question to the relevent authority, perhaps ............you meant that random people answer the phone at the CAA?
Here is the reply from the French CAA(translated by babelfish.com so better than me but not perfect)
Dear Sir,
In response to your mall of October 26, 2004, j'ai l honnor to let you know that: 1 - Being of nationality British and wanting to fly planes in G in l'espace air French, you must contact the CAA and the FAA which will give you the procedure since you are holder d'une American licence.
2 - to fly planes out of F, with your American licence, you must obtain a French validation of your licence aupès of the services of l Aviation French Civile. For that, you will find hereafter the list of the elements necessary to this possible obtaining.
I remain at your disposal for any further information and requests d'agréer, Sir, l'assurance of my best greetings from you. Yvette THOMASSET DAC/N/D2FL ORLY CUS 108 94396 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX
I also as an aside had asked if i could now fly an F reg in French airspace on FAA PPl, which was not possible 7 or so years ago when last asked but would seem it is now.
What a delightfully polite reply! but catch 22 so off to search the FAA website again
T2
Blimey and I thought this would be easy
'British pilot with FAA licence/license flying G reg outside UK airspace' (what is allowed and what paper work is required?)
MLS - 'I am probably putting my big feet in it, but ... what are you complaining about? Frankly, you should be happy that the CAA recognizes your FAA license (sorry, "certificate" ) for flights inside the UK, since it is perfectly entitled to reject that document:
Big feet are welcome but I wasn't complaining I was asking a question please see above
Beagle - 'Why don't you just get a JAA licence?'
why should I if I can do what I want on my FAA license? ( it doesnt cost me £145 every 5 years for starters)
2D - 'Random calls to the CAA tend to yeald rather variable results.
It wasn't random it was a perfectly reasonable question to the relevent authority, perhaps ............you meant that random people answer the phone at the CAA?
Here is the reply from the French CAA(translated by babelfish.com so better than me but not perfect)
Dear Sir,
In response to your mall of October 26, 2004, j'ai l honnor to let you know that: 1 - Being of nationality British and wanting to fly planes in G in l'espace air French, you must contact the CAA and the FAA which will give you the procedure since you are holder d'une American licence.
2 - to fly planes out of F, with your American licence, you must obtain a French validation of your licence aupès of the services of l Aviation French Civile. For that, you will find hereafter the list of the elements necessary to this possible obtaining.
I remain at your disposal for any further information and requests d'agréer, Sir, l'assurance of my best greetings from you. Yvette THOMASSET DAC/N/D2FL ORLY CUS 108 94396 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX
I also as an aside had asked if i could now fly an F reg in French airspace on FAA PPl, which was not possible 7 or so years ago when last asked but would seem it is now.
What a delightfully polite reply! but catch 22 so off to search the FAA website again
T2
Blimey and I thought this would be easy
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It seems to me that as far as the authorities are concerned, this is a legal nightmare and none of them are going to put their head above the parapet and say that a licence issued in one country is valid to fly an aircraft registered in a second country through the airspace of a third country.
Part of the problem I beleive is that since the CAA have this "automatic validation", there can and probably are some pilots with FAA licenses who do not meet the appropriate ICAO meducal requirements and thus such a licence could be considdered to be sub-ICAO just like the NPPL.........which other national authorities refuse to recognise.
Personally, I beleive that if the UK complied with the ICAO requirement and inspected each certificate and issued a validation then there would be less problems because the UK CAA would be meeting it's requirements under ICAO.........i.e. ensure that pilots flying G reg aircraft are licensed (and medically fit) to ICAO standards.
The best way to word a letter to the authorities is - "I am a FAA PPL certificate holder and intend to make several flights within your airspace in a G registered aircraft in the future. Do you have any objections?"
---
Bookworm,
It is always the authotiry of the country being overflown that decides who can fly thorugh their airspace and in what aircraft. What you are confusing is international agreements whereby countries agree to comply with ICAO standards and recomended practices or international agreements such as JAR.
If it was the CAA that decided who can fly G reg aircraft through what airspace then the Irish Aviation Authority would not have told many CAA licence holders flying G registered aircraft that they can not fly in Irish Airspace (even if they ask first the answer will be NO).
Regards,
DFC
Part of the problem I beleive is that since the CAA have this "automatic validation", there can and probably are some pilots with FAA licenses who do not meet the appropriate ICAO meducal requirements and thus such a licence could be considdered to be sub-ICAO just like the NPPL.........which other national authorities refuse to recognise.
Personally, I beleive that if the UK complied with the ICAO requirement and inspected each certificate and issued a validation then there would be less problems because the UK CAA would be meeting it's requirements under ICAO.........i.e. ensure that pilots flying G reg aircraft are licensed (and medically fit) to ICAO standards.
The best way to word a letter to the authorities is - "I am a FAA PPL certificate holder and intend to make several flights within your airspace in a G registered aircraft in the future. Do you have any objections?"
---
Bookworm,
It is always the authotiry of the country being overflown that decides who can fly thorugh their airspace and in what aircraft. What you are confusing is international agreements whereby countries agree to comply with ICAO standards and recomended practices or international agreements such as JAR.
If it was the CAA that decided who can fly G reg aircraft through what airspace then the Irish Aviation Authority would not have told many CAA licence holders flying G registered aircraft that they can not fly in Irish Airspace (even if they ask first the answer will be NO).
Regards,
DFC
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I don't think that the views being expressed by DFC and by Bookworm are necessarily at odds.
Before you can legally fly an aircraft, with a licence, in a country, there are a number of filters that you must pass through.
The country in which the aircraft is registered must agree that the flight crew licence you hold is good. If it is not one they issued, then in principle, they should issue a piece of paper confirming the fact that they "render it valid". In the UK, we don't, which has the potential to muddy the water, even though we have done the right thing and notified ICAO of our deviation from this practice.
The country in which you propose to fly must accept your aircraft/licence combination. They have the right to refuse, but will normally actively promulgate the fact that they will not accept certain combinations. None of the obvious European countries have gone on record as refusing FAA licences in CAA aircraft, deferring (as we have seen) to the CAA - which is quite right.
Once you have jumped those hurdles, the type of flight you propose to undertake must also be considered. What is acceptable as a private flight may become unacceptable as a charter operation, or as an instructional flight.
Then, the flight must comply both with the rules governing its state of registry whilst the crew adheres to its licence limitations, and the entire flight is conducted in accordance with the rules of the air of the country in which the flight is conducted.
This makes the entire process of judging the legality of any given flight subject to many different angles. For this reason, regulators are loathe to arbitrate in isolation, instead pointing you to the various sources that might constrain a flight - normally other CAAs.
However......
For a private flight, conducted in a G reg aircraft, but an FAA-certificated pilot, there is no prima facae problem. There are interesting discussions you can have about the rights of various European states to query the status of the flight - but ..... it isn't happening. Despite the enormous numbers of Brits flying around on FAA licences, there is not one case that I can recall of a Brit being slammed in jail by a European authority on grounds of licensing irregularities....
... or can somebody come up with an example?
2D
Before you can legally fly an aircraft, with a licence, in a country, there are a number of filters that you must pass through.
The country in which the aircraft is registered must agree that the flight crew licence you hold is good. If it is not one they issued, then in principle, they should issue a piece of paper confirming the fact that they "render it valid". In the UK, we don't, which has the potential to muddy the water, even though we have done the right thing and notified ICAO of our deviation from this practice.
The country in which you propose to fly must accept your aircraft/licence combination. They have the right to refuse, but will normally actively promulgate the fact that they will not accept certain combinations. None of the obvious European countries have gone on record as refusing FAA licences in CAA aircraft, deferring (as we have seen) to the CAA - which is quite right.
Once you have jumped those hurdles, the type of flight you propose to undertake must also be considered. What is acceptable as a private flight may become unacceptable as a charter operation, or as an instructional flight.
Then, the flight must comply both with the rules governing its state of registry whilst the crew adheres to its licence limitations, and the entire flight is conducted in accordance with the rules of the air of the country in which the flight is conducted.
This makes the entire process of judging the legality of any given flight subject to many different angles. For this reason, regulators are loathe to arbitrate in isolation, instead pointing you to the various sources that might constrain a flight - normally other CAAs.
However......
For a private flight, conducted in a G reg aircraft, but an FAA-certificated pilot, there is no prima facae problem. There are interesting discussions you can have about the rights of various European states to query the status of the flight - but ..... it isn't happening. Despite the enormous numbers of Brits flying around on FAA licences, there is not one case that I can recall of a Brit being slammed in jail by a European authority on grounds of licensing irregularities....
... or can somebody come up with an example?
2D
If it was the CAA that decided who can fly G reg aircraft through what airspace then the Irish Aviation Authority would not have told many CAA licence holders flying G registered aircraft that they can not fly in Irish Airspace (even if they ask first the answer will be NO).
In particular I don't get the "even if they ask first" part. Would you seriously expect me to request permission from every state that I wish to overfly on a private flight in a G-reg as to whether my UK-CAA licence is acceptable or not?
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I am certainly no expert, but I believe (?) that the vision requirements applied by the FAA do not comply with the standards set out in Annex 1, Chapter 6. Specifically, the FAA doesn't have a minimum requirement for uncorrected visual acuity.
I could be wrong about the above (and hope that I am, as I have very poor uncorrected vision, and it would be nice to think that ICAO has become more flexible).
I could be wrong about the above (and hope that I am, as I have very poor uncorrected vision, and it would be nice to think that ICAO has become more flexible).
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There was a bit of a hu ha about that over here earlier in the year.
Someone pointed out to the IAA that the FAA class 3 medical didn't meat the ICAO requirements, and the IAA agreed. You need an ICAO licence and medical to fly a EI reg here. Hence a lot of FAA PPL's had to go off and get a Class 1 or class 2 FAA medical.
dp
ps. I can't remember why it didn't meet the ICAO requirements
Someone pointed out to the IAA that the FAA class 3 medical didn't meat the ICAO requirements, and the IAA agreed. You need an ICAO licence and medical to fly a EI reg here. Hence a lot of FAA PPL's had to go off and get a Class 1 or class 2 FAA medical.
dp
ps. I can't remember why it didn't meet the ICAO requirements
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"Just contacted the CAA by phone to be told I must contact each individual country I want to fly to!"
You have probably just spoken to a clerk who knows far less than you do about flying. Read the ANO which is quite clear and abide by it.
You can fly a G reg on a FAA licence in accordance with Art 21 (4) (a) There are no teritorial limits stated so you don't need to ask anyone.
You have probably just spoken to a clerk who knows far less than you do about flying. Read the ANO which is quite clear and abide by it.
You can fly a G reg on a FAA licence in accordance with Art 21 (4) (a) There are no teritorial limits stated so you don't need to ask anyone.
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Just write to each authority and get it in writing. I wrote to the DGAC and the German CAA and both responded in writing that if the CAA allows me to fly a G reg on an FAA license in the UK, then they would also allow it in their airspace.
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July issue of Flyer has a good article and gives the relevant ANO and ICAO references to quote at any jobsworths you might meet along the way.
FAA $75 medical v CAA £160 medical - sure it isn't the same scope. But it doesn't mean you aren't safe to fly - or even that you are.
FAA $75 medical v CAA £160 medical - sure it isn't the same scope. But it doesn't mean you aren't safe to fly - or even that you are.