CAA Safety Evenings
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The point about the danger of the talks being patronising is related to the style of presentation, rather than the content.
The content must, of necessity, be mixed, like the experience of the audience. In that context the content is valuable.
In the context of style, I am not intending to be overly critical of individuals, but regret the format, which seems sometimes to be steeped in a culture which can be taken to be patronising.
The content must, of necessity, be mixed, like the experience of the audience. In that context the content is valuable.
In the context of style, I am not intending to be overly critical of individuals, but regret the format, which seems sometimes to be steeped in a culture which can be taken to be patronising.
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Not wishing to be seen to take sides either way, but having been to a few Safety Evenings over the years, I agree - A bit boring, but then Flight Safety can be seen to be a bit dull. I suppose if pilots didnt crash so regularly, or wipe the nose leg off their Cessna wonderplane, then it wouldnt be needed. However, I wonder how many of those contributing to this thread could travel around the country talking about the same thing, night after night and still make it interesting...I couldnt.
Maybe the presenter ought to have dancing girls on to start, get the boring bit over with and then finish with a dirty movie?
Maybe the presenter ought to have dancing girls on to start, get the boring bit over with and then finish with a dirty movie?
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I am not sure that I agree there with you Zlin.
I have attended safety meetings that made you sit on the edge of your seat.
And whether someone else could do a better job or not it would be a starter to have some means of evaluation, even if it means having to fill out some form at the end of it.
FD
I have attended safety meetings that made you sit on the edge of your seat.
And whether someone else could do a better job or not it would be a starter to have some means of evaluation, even if it means having to fill out some form at the end of it.
FD
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Went to one at Bagby International.
The guy was stick and carrot all night long.
Sat at the back and watched, hoping for some interesting tid bit. None was forthcoming as he mentioned an incident or topic, then said how well the chap or chappess did, then said how the Ministry would probably prosecute !
I give up
The guy was stick and carrot all night long.
Sat at the back and watched, hoping for some interesting tid bit. None was forthcoming as he mentioned an incident or topic, then said how well the chap or chappess did, then said how the Ministry would probably prosecute !
I give up
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I was also at the Coventry event on Thursday last. It was yet another CAA safety evening, same topics, same messages. In fact it was the same guy who had done it two years ago when I last attended.
Didn't learn anything new, but all of what was mentioned was good stuff to bring to the forefront of one's mind once in a while. Also, as the guy said, learning from the mistakes of others is a good way to fill that bag of experience before emptying the bag of luck. Of course that can be done from the AAIB reports, but having the more relevent information presented to a group is often benificial.
I must say I thought the level of audenice participation was quite poor, there was just one guy sitting next to me on the front row asking all the questions. The presenter made it quite clear that questions were welcome at any stage during the evening.
Didn't learn anything new, but all of what was mentioned was good stuff to bring to the forefront of one's mind once in a while. Also, as the guy said, learning from the mistakes of others is a good way to fill that bag of experience before emptying the bag of luck. Of course that can be done from the AAIB reports, but having the more relevent information presented to a group is often benificial.
I must say I thought the level of audenice participation was quite poor, there was just one guy sitting next to me on the front row asking all the questions. The presenter made it quite clear that questions were welcome at any stage during the evening.
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Zlin :
You have lost me completely with your comment about pilots wiping the nose wheels off their airplanes and the safety shows?
Would that issue not be because of piss poor instructing?
Chuck E.
You have lost me completely with your comment about pilots wiping the nose wheels off their airplanes and the safety shows?
Would that issue not be because of piss poor instructing?
Chuck E.
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Went to the one at Coventry as well.
I found it most enjoyable and informative - particularly the video extracts that served to drive the various points home well.
I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the presenters style. But I have often been struck at how there is a distinct surplus of chiefs in the piloting fraternity...
I found it most enjoyable and informative - particularly the video extracts that served to drive the various points home well.
I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the presenters style. But I have often been struck at how there is a distinct surplus of chiefs in the piloting fraternity...
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Royston
I have 4000hrs on fixed wing and 600 rorary with 120gliding,as far as i am concerned the CAA safety evening are a total waste of time as they are all about the two people that present them
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royston
Hopefully you will not bother going to Norwich, Newtownards or Eglington as I wouldn't want to waste my time as the 'guest' speaker talking to you about airspace issues.
Hopefully you will not bother going to Norwich, Newtownards or Eglington as I wouldn't want to waste my time as the 'guest' speaker talking to you about airspace issues.
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You have to look at these evenings in terms of their target audience.
The CAA, quite rightly, is concerned with the safety of low-hours pilots and freshly fledged PPLs.
So they concentrate on highlighting fairly basic problems, getting lost, keeping a good look-out, getting too low and too slow, CFIT etc. Problems that I'm sure mega-multi-hour pilots never encounter.
So the evenings content never varies by much, as the CAA would like every new PPL to attend.
There is no point in telling a new PPL the correct R/T procedures to be used when performing IFR aerobatiic in Class A airspace, because its irrelevant to them.
The object of the evening is to learn from the mistakes of other, as you won't have time to make them all yourself.
I can think of two good reasons for attending, the first being that you don't know what you don't know and the second being that someone has travelled a long way to tell you something that may prevent you from making a guest appearance at the AAIB and so deserves your support. The third being - any excuse for a pint and to talk flying.
The CAA, quite rightly, is concerned with the safety of low-hours pilots and freshly fledged PPLs.
So they concentrate on highlighting fairly basic problems, getting lost, keeping a good look-out, getting too low and too slow, CFIT etc. Problems that I'm sure mega-multi-hour pilots never encounter.
So the evenings content never varies by much, as the CAA would like every new PPL to attend.
There is no point in telling a new PPL the correct R/T procedures to be used when performing IFR aerobatiic in Class A airspace, because its irrelevant to them.
The object of the evening is to learn from the mistakes of other, as you won't have time to make them all yourself.
I can think of two good reasons for attending, the first being that you don't know what you don't know and the second being that someone has travelled a long way to tell you something that may prevent you from making a guest appearance at the AAIB and so deserves your support. The third being - any excuse for a pint and to talk flying.
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I went to the Safety Evening last night at Lands End. The place was packed out, as it had been apparently at Compton Abbas the previous night.
The subject matter may seem tedious to some because it's very basic, but the whole point is that neglecting the basics is what kills pilots. We keep having the same accidents over and over again. There's no magic button, and you won't learn some secret formula that will keep you alive. Read the manual, get the Met, practice the usual stuff and know when to bottle it.
I think Cockburn and Bowker do a good job of enlivening the topic, and I'd only seen one of the video clips before. If you've got better things to do than go to a safety evening, you might question your attitudes.
The subject matter may seem tedious to some because it's very basic, but the whole point is that neglecting the basics is what kills pilots. We keep having the same accidents over and over again. There's no magic button, and you won't learn some secret formula that will keep you alive. Read the manual, get the Met, practice the usual stuff and know when to bottle it.
I think Cockburn and Bowker do a good job of enlivening the topic, and I'd only seen one of the video clips before. If you've got better things to do than go to a safety evening, you might question your attitudes.
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I used to go to the CAA Safety Evenings anually when John Thorpe used to present them. His presentations were always dynamic and interesting, and he used his own personal photographs to illustrate various safety points. I accept that each year the subject matter remained somewhat similar, but the presentation was always relatively up beat.
I attended a couple of evenings more recently, and found them to be a bit uninspiring. I do still go, as I always try to maintain a high level of safety knowledge and awareness, but they do seem to have become a lot less 'bubbly' and dynamic.
I therefore only go every other year now. I wonder if this makes me a less safe pilot.....
I agree that sometimes the venues are overcrowded, and seating is inadequate, but as has been previously mentioned, the CAA is at the mercy of the hosting club. I am sure that more comfortable seating could be provided in a better environment, but that would neccessitate hiring a hotel room, the cost for which would be have to be picked up by the delegates. I believe that should this happen, then attendance would slump, and a valuable opportunity to pass a safety message to the flying community would be lost.
I consider myself to be reasonably experienced, and have flown all sorts from basic gliders, through to complex twins. I work in aviation, and have over 7000 professional instructing hours. I still think that the Safety Evenings are a good thing, and very worthwhile attending, and there is always an opportunity to learn something new.
It is also an opportunity to have a social event where you can sit and chat with other pilots/aircrew and exchange ideas and thoughts - without everyone rushing off to fly.
I agree that perhaps the CAA should reconsider the format of these evenings.
Tailwinds!
I attended a couple of evenings more recently, and found them to be a bit uninspiring. I do still go, as I always try to maintain a high level of safety knowledge and awareness, but they do seem to have become a lot less 'bubbly' and dynamic.
I therefore only go every other year now. I wonder if this makes me a less safe pilot.....
I agree that sometimes the venues are overcrowded, and seating is inadequate, but as has been previously mentioned, the CAA is at the mercy of the hosting club. I am sure that more comfortable seating could be provided in a better environment, but that would neccessitate hiring a hotel room, the cost for which would be have to be picked up by the delegates. I believe that should this happen, then attendance would slump, and a valuable opportunity to pass a safety message to the flying community would be lost.
I consider myself to be reasonably experienced, and have flown all sorts from basic gliders, through to complex twins. I work in aviation, and have over 7000 professional instructing hours. I still think that the Safety Evenings are a good thing, and very worthwhile attending, and there is always an opportunity to learn something new.
It is also an opportunity to have a social event where you can sit and chat with other pilots/aircrew and exchange ideas and thoughts - without everyone rushing off to fly.
I agree that perhaps the CAA should reconsider the format of these evenings.
Tailwinds!
The Original Whirly
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Kolibear,
I seem to remember hearing at the first safety evening I ever attended, that most accidents happen to pilots with 200-500 hours. If that's the case, shouldn't they be the target audience? And shouldn't those of us in that hours category be attending?
I seem to remember hearing at the first safety evening I ever attended, that most accidents happen to pilots with 200-500 hours. If that's the case, shouldn't they be the target audience? And shouldn't those of us in that hours category be attending?
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Pat M
The problem, I think, is that they can't be all things to all people. One assumes, pretty obviously from the subject matter and the attitude to certain questions, that they are aimed at very low time PPLs (I mean PPL only, not even the IMC Rating is spoken of positively). The problem is that most low-time PPLs chuck in their flying very early and certainly long before they get around to attending this or any other sort of seminar. However the CAA will never admit that this is happening, because they would then have to explain why. Most of the regulars at these seminars are semi-retired old timers who may well fly very low hours but I don't think they are the target audience.
Whirly
These statistics, originating from an American publication, come mostly from the place where at least 90% of world's GA population lives and flies: the USA. Pilots over there have a load more money, buy a load more planes, and buy a load more planes before they have had time to build up experience. Since only a tiny % of pilots have any sort of major incident, it doesn't take a lot to skew the figures. You could find two pilots with say 300hrs; one who did it in 2 years and many more who did it over 20-30 years. Obviously their risk profile will differ greatly. 300hrs over 20yrs means you can barely remember which knob does what from one flight to the next, and your flying will very sensibly most likely be limited to Goodwood to Beachy Head and back on perfect sunny days
Statistics....
I went to the last CAA seminar with a few others, all of us in the 300-500hr bracket (in a few years) with IMC/IR ratings and we ALL found it absolutely totally dreary. In fact I think the subject is useless even to a new PPL; it is so steeped in "old" advice, discouragement of anything invented after WW2 (GPS). I am sure there are more effective ways to tell a new PPL with more than half a brain to not try to squeeze between a 2000ft hill and a 2200ft cloudbase, in rain.
The problem is that anyone criticising "safety" advice gets castigated. I am saying it could be done a lot better.
The problem, I think, is that they can't be all things to all people. One assumes, pretty obviously from the subject matter and the attitude to certain questions, that they are aimed at very low time PPLs (I mean PPL only, not even the IMC Rating is spoken of positively). The problem is that most low-time PPLs chuck in their flying very early and certainly long before they get around to attending this or any other sort of seminar. However the CAA will never admit that this is happening, because they would then have to explain why. Most of the regulars at these seminars are semi-retired old timers who may well fly very low hours but I don't think they are the target audience.
Whirly
These statistics, originating from an American publication, come mostly from the place where at least 90% of world's GA population lives and flies: the USA. Pilots over there have a load more money, buy a load more planes, and buy a load more planes before they have had time to build up experience. Since only a tiny % of pilots have any sort of major incident, it doesn't take a lot to skew the figures. You could find two pilots with say 300hrs; one who did it in 2 years and many more who did it over 20-30 years. Obviously their risk profile will differ greatly. 300hrs over 20yrs means you can barely remember which knob does what from one flight to the next, and your flying will very sensibly most likely be limited to Goodwood to Beachy Head and back on perfect sunny days
Statistics....
I went to the last CAA seminar with a few others, all of us in the 300-500hr bracket (in a few years) with IMC/IR ratings and we ALL found it absolutely totally dreary. In fact I think the subject is useless even to a new PPL; it is so steeped in "old" advice, discouragement of anything invented after WW2 (GPS). I am sure there are more effective ways to tell a new PPL with more than half a brain to not try to squeeze between a 2000ft hill and a 2200ft cloudbase, in rain.
The problem is that anyone criticising "safety" advice gets castigated. I am saying it could be done a lot better.
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Quote :
"The problem is that anyone criticising safety" advice gets castigated. I am saying it could be done a lot better."
Exactly, the bureaucrats have embraced the word " SAFETY " as a motherhood issue to cover everything they pump out of their ever growing empire.. if we even question their mantra we will be considered P.C. incorrect and labeled as missfits in aviation just because we look a little to close at their make believe world.
So f.ck e'm if they can not come up with concrete useful ideas we have the right to question their credibility on any issue.
But of course you must remember that I am not P.C.
Chuck
"The problem is that anyone criticising safety" advice gets castigated. I am saying it could be done a lot better."
Exactly, the bureaucrats have embraced the word " SAFETY " as a motherhood issue to cover everything they pump out of their ever growing empire.. if we even question their mantra we will be considered P.C. incorrect and labeled as missfits in aviation just because we look a little to close at their make believe world.
So f.ck e'm if they can not come up with concrete useful ideas we have the right to question their credibility on any issue.
But of course you must remember that I am not P.C.
Chuck
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 28th Nov 2004 at 22:20.
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As I promised myself, I went to an evening last week and was pleasantly surprised by the improvement. The material was much the same but the presentation was far smoother and friendlier. Whether this was the result of experience &/or feedback I don't know, but the assembled gathering displayed greater enjoyment and appreciation than previously noted.
Those I sopke to agreed that there was a lighter touch in evidence, with more acknowledgement of the realities of GA than previously, when the 'official view' was pumped out to the detriment of more honest debate.
The D.A.P. representative also was in good form...
So, regardless of what I might think about an 'ideal' Safety Evening (one size won't fit all, to start with), I am happy to acknowledge that I was impressed by the difference and I will again be encouraging others to attend too.
Those I sopke to agreed that there was a lighter touch in evidence, with more acknowledgement of the realities of GA than previously, when the 'official view' was pumped out to the detriment of more honest debate.
The D.A.P. representative also was in good form...
So, regardless of what I might think about an 'ideal' Safety Evening (one size won't fit all, to start with), I am happy to acknowledge that I was impressed by the difference and I will again be encouraging others to attend too.
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CAA Evening - IoM
Speaking as a very low hours student, I was quite surprised that the accidents being 'demonstrated' were from several years ago, and there was no 'recent' content - from my point of view I saw a few situations I hadn't been aware of, but I think some of the more experienced were a bit glazed.
Of more concern was the fact that I was the only student there - I only knew about it as my wife works in government and spotted it on the website.
A bit more publicity would have been handy - don't the CAA have all our addresses from licence applications and could send out invitations?
Overall I enjoyed it, however as a professional trainer (people not flying), the quality of the slides etc. could certainly be improved.
Some of the near miss videos were good!
Of more concern was the fact that I was the only student there - I only knew about it as my wife works in government and spotted it on the website.
A bit more publicity would have been handy - don't the CAA have all our addresses from licence applications and could send out invitations?
Overall I enjoyed it, however as a professional trainer (people not flying), the quality of the slides etc. could certainly be improved.
Some of the near miss videos were good!
