Its your Aeroclub - What aeroplane do you buy?
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bordeaux, France
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Its your Aeroclub - What aeroplane do you buy?
OK, so you are in an aeroclub in France with about 50 to 60 odd flying members, though some have their own aeroplanes/microlights too. Currently they have a DR300 (120HP 2+2) which is used mainly for training new students to fly and a DR400-140B (160HP 4 seater) which is thought of as the touring aeroplane. The club has a 900m grass strip and the aeroplanes are nicely hangared, there are 2 instructors. The aeroplanes are beginning to get a little old now and although are good for at least a few years yet without major work, the club has money aside and are thinking of replacing one or both in the coming couple of years, hopefully before they absolutely need to replace the aeroplanes.
Now, the question is....what aeroplane or aeroplanes would you choose? Im currently being asked this question by my club.
Bearing in mind the info given above, do you go for two similar aeroplanes, such as a couple of DR 400s? Remember this is a club, there is no profit required, only break even. Can you justify buying new or stick with used? Do you go for the UK style Cessna 152/PA28 mix? What about new generation stuff such as DA-40tdi, Katana etc bearing in ming operating cost? How important is similarity of aeroplanes for currency, or is it better to have two different types? Is it a good idea to be able to do very basic aeros/spin training in one of the aeroplanes to maintain interest and keep up skills? What would be the best compromise?
So come on, I know this is the place to get an opinion....
Regards SD..
Now, the question is....what aeroplane or aeroplanes would you choose? Im currently being asked this question by my club.
Bearing in mind the info given above, do you go for two similar aeroplanes, such as a couple of DR 400s? Remember this is a club, there is no profit required, only break even. Can you justify buying new or stick with used? Do you go for the UK style Cessna 152/PA28 mix? What about new generation stuff such as DA-40tdi, Katana etc bearing in ming operating cost? How important is similarity of aeroplanes for currency, or is it better to have two different types? Is it a good idea to be able to do very basic aeros/spin training in one of the aeroplanes to maintain interest and keep up skills? What would be the best compromise?
So come on, I know this is the place to get an opinion....
Regards SD..
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Having never flown a Robin before I have no idea. Firstly I would defenatly ask the opinion of those who are going to spend money with you. If they arnt sure arrange to bring aircrafts in for viewing, and invite your members to take a look.
The Diamond Star (TDI) is a very nice aircraft and i hope to have a go at one soonish. From what ive heard from a light aircraft leasing company they think that a DA40 TDI could justify the origanal cost in the reduction in fuel costs (presuming you can get D fuel). In the UK the DA40 has had various engine problems.
The Cessna 152 / Piper Warrior combenation seems to work (especially at sunny shoreham). As long as you insist one is for training (C152) and one is for touring (PA28). This way new customers see that you are trying not to rip them off. The 152 is a very good aircraft to train on although with the market at the moment you will probably be looking to put a new engine in one you buy.
Hope This Helps!
The Diamond Star (TDI) is a very nice aircraft and i hope to have a go at one soonish. From what ive heard from a light aircraft leasing company they think that a DA40 TDI could justify the origanal cost in the reduction in fuel costs (presuming you can get D fuel). In the UK the DA40 has had various engine problems.
The Cessna 152 / Piper Warrior combenation seems to work (especially at sunny shoreham). As long as you insist one is for training (C152) and one is for touring (PA28). This way new customers see that you are trying not to rip them off. The 152 is a very good aircraft to train on although with the market at the moment you will probably be looking to put a new engine in one you buy.
Hope This Helps!
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Sounds to me like more of the same. You are in France, you have hangerage: ergo Robins/Jodels.
I would get a proper tourer like a 180 HP DR400, and/or a D140 Jodel (if you can find one), to provide a taildragger option.
I would get a proper tourer like a 180 HP DR400, and/or a D140 Jodel (if you can find one), to provide a taildragger option.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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You'll probably all accuse me of bias (K- you're biased!), but have you considered a Koliber?
Koliber 160
Its an updated Rallye (French) and PZL are owned by EADS (French), so you coudn't be accused on being unpatriotic.
Koliber 160
Its an updated Rallye (French) and PZL are owned by EADS (French), so you coudn't be accused on being unpatriotic.
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Re. the Rallye...
Hopefully they've sorted out the terrible corrosion problems that bedevilled the original. Great fun to fly but pretty inefficient airframe. 85kt cruise on 160HP at an economical setting.
The best all-rounder for ab-initio and local club touring at an economical cost/hour remains the Warrior.
Having lost our Warrior after 10 yrs and 3,500hours, we did the rounds last year of all the plastic fantastic a/c and the other offerings out there and eventually came up with...
another Warrior.
The only change we'd make would be to stick a diesel engine in it. Expensive initially but at 350 hrs/year you get the money back before the engine needs replacing. No carb heat worries and a single power lever. Sounds good!
Cheers,
The Odd One
Hopefully they've sorted out the terrible corrosion problems that bedevilled the original. Great fun to fly but pretty inefficient airframe. 85kt cruise on 160HP at an economical setting.
The best all-rounder for ab-initio and local club touring at an economical cost/hour remains the Warrior.
Having lost our Warrior after 10 yrs and 3,500hours, we did the rounds last year of all the plastic fantastic a/c and the other offerings out there and eventually came up with...
another Warrior.
The only change we'd make would be to stick a diesel engine in it. Expensive initially but at 350 hrs/year you get the money back before the engine needs replacing. No carb heat worries and a single power lever. Sounds good!
Cheers,
The Odd One
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The aeroclub I fly from just went through exactly this process. After much investigation, they bought a new DR400-140B to go with the others they already have. Robin are doing great deals on them (our's cost about 150k€), they can be used for touring, training, just flying for fun.... and they can be fixed "in house".
Easy choice, if not the most exciting.
Easy choice, if not the most exciting.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Unless there is a demand for something completely different (Tailwheel/Aerobatic/IFR-deiced) I would go for another Robin.
Can be used by all as they all fly the same and a known quantity (if not the factory!)
If you want to go for something different get a Cub/Cap or a Diamond Star if feeling flush.
Robin now do a diesel version as well which obviously would bring operating costs down quite a bit.
Have fun choosing and flying it!
FD
Can be used by all as they all fly the same and a known quantity (if not the factory!)
If you want to go for something different get a Cub/Cap or a Diamond Star if feeling flush.
Robin now do a diesel version as well which obviously would bring operating costs down quite a bit.
Have fun choosing and flying it!
FD
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Thanks for all the replies so far.
Personally, I would like to see us keep the DR400 a bit longer and change the DR300 for a Robin alpha / 2160 2-seater - but it is not for me to buy. The club is indeed asking all its members their opinions, it will be a club decision, of which I am a member - hence the question!!
I have a feeling that we will probably get another Robin DR400, as Aerobatic Flyer says, as that will tie in with most members views. Some of the suggestions above I had not thought of and will be brought up for consideration though. The Jet A1 powered option has indeed been discussed in the bar as we had a DA40TDi demonstrator visit the club for a day over the summer.
Regards, SD..
Personally, I would like to see us keep the DR400 a bit longer and change the DR300 for a Robin alpha / 2160 2-seater - but it is not for me to buy. The club is indeed asking all its members their opinions, it will be a club decision, of which I am a member - hence the question!!
I have a feeling that we will probably get another Robin DR400, as Aerobatic Flyer says, as that will tie in with most members views. Some of the suggestions above I had not thought of and will be brought up for consideration though. The Jet A1 powered option has indeed been discussed in the bar as we had a DA40TDi demonstrator visit the club for a day over the summer.
Regards, SD..
Join Date: Jul 2004
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robins are probabaly the sweetest handling planes on the market and have all the benfits of performance/vis etc. I did my 1st 400 hrs on an alpha and it taught me well, I swore I'd never touch a cessna or piper spam can, until I bought one by accident!
cessna's are so cheap to run and easy to maintain, spare parts are a fraction of the cost of Robins and anyone can fix them. This simply has to equate to a better profit margin and less head aches as far as mainteance goes
but you do give up handling, looks, vis, speed and all other areas of performance!
cessna's are so cheap to run and easy to maintain, spare parts are a fraction of the cost of Robins and anyone can fix them. This simply has to equate to a better profit margin and less head aches as far as mainteance goes
but you do give up handling, looks, vis, speed and all other areas of performance!
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As a Robin DR400 owner I regret to say that I would not use one for any enterprise that was intended to make money.
When I went into the aircraft leasing game I was all set up to support a Robin operation From maintanence of my private Robin I had all the manuals ,control rigging tools and a number of other bits of kit but despite this I could not see how I could make any money with the appauling spare parts support that the factory is renound for.
I went down the Cessna / Piper road with much regret as the Robin is without doubt the best aircraft to fly.
When I went into the aircraft leasing game I was all set up to support a Robin operation From maintanence of my private Robin I had all the manuals ,control rigging tools and a number of other bits of kit but despite this I could not see how I could make any money with the appauling spare parts support that the factory is renound for.
I went down the Cessna / Piper road with much regret as the Robin is without doubt the best aircraft to fly.
A good tourer / trainer is the Grumman AA-5A. I've never flown a Robin so I can't compare the handling but the Grumman handles much better than it's C172 and PA-28 brethren (which I have flown). Junior airline pilot yoke is it's only drawback from my point of view.
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As a Robin DR400 owner I regret to say that I would not use one for any enterprise that was intended to make money.
As for the spare parts support, I fear you're right - although I'm told things have improved a little over the situation a year or so ago.
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what about a chipmunk, it is a pleasure yet a challenge to fly very aerobatic plus it is a great intsructional aircraft and a PA28 or even (quite expensive possibly) a YAK18 for touring
another possibility could be a beagle pup (civil version of the bulldog) it is very agile and capable of touring
another possibility could be a beagle pup (civil version of the bulldog) it is very agile and capable of touring
