TSA Training Rule
The Oracle
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TSA Training Rule
We have been fielding many questions about this subject. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what this means for students training.
Yesterday I spent a good deal of time going over the new Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Training Rule with Homeland Security.
One thing that the TSA did not mention in the ruling, is that this only applies to FAR Part 141 Schools. Only FAR Part 141 Schools have Visa Authority to Issue I-20s for Foreign Students to train in the U.S. and this Rule only applies to Foreign Students that are training towards a Certificate, Licence, or Rating. (This is the same criteria used to determine whether a Students needs an M-1, J-1 or F-1 Visa.)
Right now, the TSA do not have any packets (with applications and fingerprints cards) ready for the Flight Schools but are expected later this month. At this moment there is no registration procedure for any Flight School, since the TSA has not given any information to the FSDOs. (So right now there are no passwords for any Flight Schools to be issued.)
The Security Training Material for both Schools and Instructors is still under development and not expected till the end of the month. Currently no one can be trained on the procedures which are required by this new Rule.
The goal of this new TSA Rule is to verify the person that shows up for training is in fact who they say they are. The procedure will be quite simple, and all that is required will be for the student to have and application completed, a picture taken and then be finger printed.
For NAC we have the local Law Enforcement setup to take the finger prints without any additional charges to the students. (The other schools should be able to work out similar arrangements.)
When this rule is finally implemented, the student on arrival will fill out an application, have their picture and finger prints taken and sent off to the TSA. During this time, the student will continue their training and will only stop if the TSA comes back and says to. The only time the TSA will stop a student's training will be if the student who shows up for training is not the person their passport says they are, since all students would have already been verified by the U.S. Embassy.
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Note to moderators: I posted this thread in three forums so you could merge them into one thread and leave links in Private Flying, Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies), and North America Forums.]
Yesterday I spent a good deal of time going over the new Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Training Rule with Homeland Security.
One thing that the TSA did not mention in the ruling, is that this only applies to FAR Part 141 Schools. Only FAR Part 141 Schools have Visa Authority to Issue I-20s for Foreign Students to train in the U.S. and this Rule only applies to Foreign Students that are training towards a Certificate, Licence, or Rating. (This is the same criteria used to determine whether a Students needs an M-1, J-1 or F-1 Visa.)
Right now, the TSA do not have any packets (with applications and fingerprints cards) ready for the Flight Schools but are expected later this month. At this moment there is no registration procedure for any Flight School, since the TSA has not given any information to the FSDOs. (So right now there are no passwords for any Flight Schools to be issued.)
The Security Training Material for both Schools and Instructors is still under development and not expected till the end of the month. Currently no one can be trained on the procedures which are required by this new Rule.
The goal of this new TSA Rule is to verify the person that shows up for training is in fact who they say they are. The procedure will be quite simple, and all that is required will be for the student to have and application completed, a picture taken and then be finger printed.
For NAC we have the local Law Enforcement setup to take the finger prints without any additional charges to the students. (The other schools should be able to work out similar arrangements.)
When this rule is finally implemented, the student on arrival will fill out an application, have their picture and finger prints taken and sent off to the TSA. During this time, the student will continue their training and will only stop if the TSA comes back and says to. The only time the TSA will stop a student's training will be if the student who shows up for training is not the person their passport says they are, since all students would have already been verified by the U.S. Embassy.
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Note to moderators: I posted this thread in three forums so you could merge them into one thread and leave links in Private Flying, Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies), and North America Forums.]
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Hi Richard,
This isn't how it is being interpreted elsewhere. Today I was at a flight school in another FAA region, and they have been told you need to go through the TSA checks even if you are just checking a foreign pilot out to rent a plane, and also for a BFR. That's Part 61 activity. It seems likely that in due course this will also apply to US citizens. They are getting out of the training business.
One thing that the TSA did not mention in the ruling, is that this only applies to FAR Part 141 Schools. Only FAR Part 141 Schools have Visa Authority to Issue I-20s for Foreign Students to train in the U.S. and this Rule only applies to Foreign Students that are training towards a Certificate, Licence, or Rating.
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So what is actually needed now? I tried to complete the ASFP applictaion form and Naples were not on the list so it juts bounced it.
Do we still need to fill on all of the VISA paperwork as well as the ASFP stuff?
Do we need to get the validation letter from the CAA? If had my JAA licence validated in October last year, would I need to have it validated again this year?
I could do with a very clear list of the actions that need to be followed now!
It is all getting very confusing!!
Do we still need to fill on all of the VISA paperwork as well as the ASFP stuff?
Do we need to get the validation letter from the CAA? If had my JAA licence validated in October last year, would I need to have it validated again this year?
I could do with a very clear list of the actions that need to be followed now!
It is all getting very confusing!!
It must be easier to train elsewhere in the world. It appears to be getting ever more difficult to enter the USA and it cannot be long before people decide that the effort just isn't worth it.
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That just means the terrorist's have won. The Americans are withdrawing into Fortress America and America is no longer the land ofthe FREE.
It will inevitbly force people to look elsewhere like SA or Canada.
I have been planning on doing a course with Naples in the next month or so but just cant work out what paperwork actually needs completing and where it all need to go!
It will inevitbly force people to look elsewhere like SA or Canada.
I have been planning on doing a course with Naples in the next month or so but just cant work out what paperwork actually needs completing and where it all need to go!
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I went to another flight school yesterday and they are going to fingerprint anybody who walks through the door without an US passport or original US birth certificate. This is because nobody in authority can tell them what is going on and they think it's safer that way. There has been no consultation whatsoever with the flight schools (or the FSDOs or local TSA people apparently).
Also interesting is that this applies to green card holders who are usually treated like US citizens except in things like voting/juries. Green card holders are certainly allowed to pay US Federal tax on worldwide income.
As they say in some circles "No examination is complete without a PR" and no doubt Dept of Homeland Security will be requiring those to be performed in the near future before you can give your money to cash-strapped US flight schools.
Also interesting is that this applies to green card holders who are usually treated like US citizens except in things like voting/juries. Green card holders are certainly allowed to pay US Federal tax on worldwide income.
As they say in some circles "No examination is complete without a PR" and no doubt Dept of Homeland Security will be requiring those to be performed in the near future before you can give your money to cash-strapped US flight schools.
The Oracle
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slim_slag,
You are correct. The TSA is still defining and molding this rule. (It will continue to be modified until its officially implemented on the 20th.) Two days ago the TSA added Part 61 schools.
bose-x,
This will be no more than an extra click for an extra piece of paper. We have all the details in our checklist that we sent out with your Visa paperwork.
Right now NAC will be the first school to be registered in the Miami FDSO's region, which will happen on Monday. We have spent the last week educating the FSDO, since they did not have any information and 30 minutes ago were able to get with the TSA in order to start approving 141 Schools in our their region.
The Orlando FSDO was up to speed on the new rules and have already been registering 141 and 61 schools.
slim_slag I would suggest that you advise the school to contact their local Homeland Security Agent in order to help clarify their questions on the new process.
Richard
You are correct. The TSA is still defining and molding this rule. (It will continue to be modified until its officially implemented on the 20th.) Two days ago the TSA added Part 61 schools.
bose-x,
This will be no more than an extra click for an extra piece of paper. We have all the details in our checklist that we sent out with your Visa paperwork.
Right now NAC will be the first school to be registered in the Miami FDSO's region, which will happen on Monday. We have spent the last week educating the FSDO, since they did not have any information and 30 minutes ago were able to get with the TSA in order to start approving 141 Schools in our their region.
The Orlando FSDO was up to speed on the new rules and have already been registering 141 and 61 schools.
slim_slag I would suggest that you advise the school to contact their local Homeland Security Agent in order to help clarify their questions on the new process.
Richard
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bose-x
You mention Canada. I wonder why there isn't training in Spain. A much better climate than the UK. Somebody had built a big air park near Murcia (probably some EU grant "enterprise" which Spain is full of) and that would be an obvious place to do it.
You mention Canada. I wonder why there isn't training in Spain. A much better climate than the UK. Somebody had built a big air park near Murcia (probably some EU grant "enterprise" which Spain is full of) and that would be an obvious place to do it.
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Spain would be a nice place and just as cheap as long as they ste up tro do FAA courses. I am not interested in JAR in any shape or form.
It is a shame that the US Government are closing things down so much as it will drive people away and harm the training schools maybe even to to the point of going out of business.
I am surprised at the way they are treating people and how they are making it so difficult. I love America and the culture but could end up goin elsewhere as just getting in there is a nightmare. S much for the "special" relationship between the countries!
I have been very impressed with the time and effort Richard and Nicola put into giving advice and if the visa stuff works out look forward to flying with them!
It is a shame that the US Government are closing things down so much as it will drive people away and harm the training schools maybe even to to the point of going out of business.
I am surprised at the way they are treating people and how they are making it so difficult. I love America and the culture but could end up goin elsewhere as just getting in there is a nightmare. S much for the "special" relationship between the countries!
I have been very impressed with the time and effort Richard and Nicola put into giving advice and if the visa stuff works out look forward to flying with them!
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Hi Richard,
The owner of the flight school I spoke to yesterday is very, very, tight with the FAA and couldn't get an answer after 1.5 hours on the phone to the FSDO, and not even after being passed to the head TSA person in the region. Apparently the rules and regs are not being transmitted west of the Mississippi
. Round here they all appear to be doing what is going to cause them least problems with the authorities if they get it wrong. What people don't realise is that even US citizens will have to produce documentation to prove they are US citizens, and I know plenty of people who don't have that documentation to hand.
The owner of the flight school I spoke to yesterday is very, very, tight with the FAA and couldn't get an answer after 1.5 hours on the phone to the FSDO, and not even after being passed to the head TSA person in the region. Apparently the rules and regs are not being transmitted west of the Mississippi
. Round here they all appear to be doing what is going to cause them least problems with the authorities if they get it wrong. What people don't realise is that even US citizens will have to produce documentation to prove they are US citizens, and I know plenty of people who don't have that documentation to hand.
The Oracle
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slim_slag,
There does not seem to be a lot of communication at all on either side of the Mississippi. With AOPA working on this issue, I am sure there will be some changes in the near future that will be to the pilot's advantage.
Something we are doing here is having a meeting Monday morning between Local Law Enforcement, TSA, Homeland Security, and all the area schools in order to make sure everything will be smooth for students. It is something that your friend should do too.
That is the best way to make sure there will be avoid any problems come October 20th.
Richard
There does not seem to be a lot of communication at all on either side of the Mississippi. With AOPA working on this issue, I am sure there will be some changes in the near future that will be to the pilot's advantage.
Round here they all appear to be doing what is going to cause them least problems with the authorities if they get it wrong.
That is the best way to make sure there will be avoid any problems come October 20th.
Richard
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Richard (or anyone):
So, a non-resident alien with an existing, current (not converted but actual) FAA licence (with or without an instrument rating) may turn up on vacation in the USA at one or two flight schools where he/she has been known for years, and will have to be finger-printed and photographed.
This will be necessary for a rental check-out and/or a BFR, or even to have an instructor in the right seat to act as the safety pilot/observer whilst the pilot is shooting approaches to keep the 6/6 currency for an IR?
All pilots now carry photo ID, and to most aliens, their passport is it - so wherever or whenever a visiting FAA licence holder wants to fly now in the USA, they will have to go through these new ID checks - mainly because rental checkouts are required by schools and their insurance companies. They will, of course, also be carrying their medical certs. and their pilot's license. Quite a lot of ID....
Presumably, this would only have to be done once at each school, and the pilot concerned may fly while the paperwork is being processed.
Is this how the rule will apply? Not complaining, just wanting to get the facts right. In speaking to AOPA, they were trying to argue that the above scenario was unnecessary, and they were hoping to get it dropped.........
So, a non-resident alien with an existing, current (not converted but actual) FAA licence (with or without an instrument rating) may turn up on vacation in the USA at one or two flight schools where he/she has been known for years, and will have to be finger-printed and photographed.
This will be necessary for a rental check-out and/or a BFR, or even to have an instructor in the right seat to act as the safety pilot/observer whilst the pilot is shooting approaches to keep the 6/6 currency for an IR?
All pilots now carry photo ID, and to most aliens, their passport is it - so wherever or whenever a visiting FAA licence holder wants to fly now in the USA, they will have to go through these new ID checks - mainly because rental checkouts are required by schools and their insurance companies. They will, of course, also be carrying their medical certs. and their pilot's license. Quite a lot of ID....
Presumably, this would only have to be done once at each school, and the pilot concerned may fly while the paperwork is being processed.
Is this how the rule will apply? Not complaining, just wanting to get the facts right. In speaking to AOPA, they were trying to argue that the above scenario was unnecessary, and they were hoping to get it dropped.........
I'm now of the opinion that it makes more sense for people seeking cheap(er) flight training to remove the USA from the list of training & time building options and will now be advising the same.
The TSA's carry on does nothing to enhance security. All it causes is bureaucratic harassment.
The TSA's carry on does nothing to enhance security. All it causes is bureaucratic harassment.
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AS a further comment, whilst waiting for Richard's answer, I can also point out that all aliens, from late September, are required to provide a fingerprint and be photographed by immigration as they enter the USA. So, their status and ID details will already be known to the immigration authorities and on file.
There may be a duplication of effort here.
As I said, I'm not complaining - just asking for clarification of a situation. Flying is becoming more and more regulated all round the world (look at JAA and EASA), and these latest TSA requirements will probably entail some inconvenience, but that's life now - especially since 9/11 :-(
There may be a duplication of effort here.
As I said, I'm not complaining - just asking for clarification of a situation. Flying is becoming more and more regulated all round the world (look at JAA and EASA), and these latest TSA requirements will probably entail some inconvenience, but that's life now - especially since 9/11 :-(
The Oracle
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DubTrub,
From my first post in this thread:
Tinstaafl,
This is not going to add much to coming to the U.S. once it is finally implemented. Right now it is still being developed. We need to see where it ends.
Flying Tooth Driller,
That was my first comment to the Homeland Security Officer. The reply was that the TSA wanted to make sure the person that arrives at the school for training is in fact who they say they are.
Now for anyone just looking to rent or get a BFR, there is no charge from the TSA and all they will have to do is fill in their info in the website linked above before coming to the U.S. This should not take more than a few minutes on a computer.
As for the comment about AOPA, I do hope they can come up with a program that is more pilot friendly for the TSA to adopt.
Happy Flying,
Richard
From my first post in this thread:
...Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Training Rule...
This is not going to add much to coming to the U.S. once it is finally implemented. Right now it is still being developed. We need to see where it ends.
Flying Tooth Driller,
I can also point out that all aliens, from late September, are required to provide a fingerprint and be photographed by immigration as they enter the USA. So, their status and ID details will already be known to the immigration authorities and on file.
There may be a duplication of effort here.
There may be a duplication of effort here.
Now for anyone just looking to rent or get a BFR, there is no charge from the TSA and all they will have to do is fill in their info in the website linked above before coming to the U.S. This should not take more than a few minutes on a computer.
As for the comment about AOPA, I do hope they can come up with a program that is more pilot friendly for the TSA to adopt.
Happy Flying,
Richard
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Now for anyone just looking to rent or get a BFR, there is no charge from the TSA and all they will have to do is fill in their info in the website linked above before coming to the U.S. This should not take more than a few minutes on a computer.
Does this mean that if Im over in the US on business and I get a few free days or a weekend off, that I will no longer be able to just pitch up at a flying school and get a check out to rent an aeroplane because I have not done anything with the FAA/TSA prior to coming to the US? I ask, because in my line of work I visit the US on business, but never know if I will have any time to myself until I get the time off....if you know what I mean!!
OK, so entering the US is more hassle now, but I still like it over your way, and like to fly when I can, as my experiences have been good so far, and everyone friendly and helpfull even when just pitching up out of the blue. I hope this is still possible if you have a FAA licence on the back of a JAA-PPL.
......Though the last time I was in Houston and arranged to fly (actually a few days in advance this time), GWB decided to fly in and everyone was grounded, no notice at all......
....but thats a whole different topic!!Regards, SD..
PS.. thanks for taking the time to write about this on here, Im sure I am not the only one to appreciate it.
G'day Richard,
I see this as a camel & straw thing. Yet another useless & unjustifiable imposition. Why would someone bother - without good reason - when places like S.Africa, Oz & NZ (& Canada?) have none of this institutional combination of paranoia & obsessive compulsive disorder?
It's not helping the schools. It's not helping security.
I see this as a camel & straw thing. Yet another useless & unjustifiable imposition. Why would someone bother - without good reason - when places like S.Africa, Oz & NZ (& Canada?) have none of this institutional combination of paranoia & obsessive compulsive disorder?
It's not helping the schools. It's not helping security.
The Oracle
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skydriller,
You can log onto the website while already here in the U.S. too. I was just addressing people that would be doing the full training Visa before coming over.
According to the rule, your information is sent in and you can start flying immediately. No need to wait for a reply from the TSA.
Tinstaafl,
As for security, it does verify that the person who shows up to train is in fact who they say they are.
Part of the problem is the TSA does not understand anything about aviation. I look for organizations like AOPA to work on getting this streamlined and 100% pilot friendly.
As for the straw that breaks the camel's back, I do not see it that way at all. This will be a very simple process.
Happy Flying,
Richard
You can log onto the website while already here in the U.S. too. I was just addressing people that would be doing the full training Visa before coming over.
According to the rule, your information is sent in and you can start flying immediately. No need to wait for a reply from the TSA.
Tinstaafl,
As for security, it does verify that the person who shows up to train is in fact who they say they are.
Part of the problem is the TSA does not understand anything about aviation. I look for organizations like AOPA to work on getting this streamlined and 100% pilot friendly.
As for the straw that breaks the camel's back, I do not see it that way at all. This will be a very simple process.
Happy Flying,
Richard
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Richard:
Like others, I thank you for for your efforts in this forum.
You mention a link to a website, but I do not see one in your posts (unless I just missed it!). I had a look on the TSA website and did a search on "aliens" but didn't come up with much.
Anyway, your feeling is that for check-outs, currency flights including BFRs (i.e. NOT flight training per se, because such people already have the licenses and ratings), one will have to get fingerprinted somewhere near the FBO(s)/flight school(s), and fill out some paperwork there or on the web, and bring a passport. Is that correct?
As many of us will be flying at places that have known us for years, our identity is hardly in doubt - but I see where the TSA are coming from if one turns up at a place where one is not known. It still seems a bit odd to have to prove one's identity at a place where it is not in doubt.
Would the person be able to carry the original (or a copy) of this info pack on themselves, or what?
Suppose someone is staying in Naples and has regularly flown with you, maybe having trained at NAC, but is now staying current and just flying for pleasure (i.e. not actually training for a rating) and then they go to (say) Sarasota and want to fly there. Would they have to go to the police, or wherever, there and be fingerprinted again, and go through the whole process again?
Seems like a lot of paperwork......... , but I'm not complaining, just asking.
As an aside, one of the largest flight training and renting organisations here in the UK have asked their members to bring in passports and a household utility bill, so that they can keep a copy on file. This, despite the fact that they wrote to me (and other members/friends) at our homes (i.e. TO OUR ADDRESSES!) - asking for this, and in my case, including my new membership card and airfield car park permit, both of which have my photo on them, a photo which they took :-) - and, yes, they've known me for years.........
Your answers and comments please.
Regards.
FTD
Like others, I thank you for for your efforts in this forum.
You mention a link to a website, but I do not see one in your posts (unless I just missed it!). I had a look on the TSA website and did a search on "aliens" but didn't come up with much.
Anyway, your feeling is that for check-outs, currency flights including BFRs (i.e. NOT flight training per se, because such people already have the licenses and ratings), one will have to get fingerprinted somewhere near the FBO(s)/flight school(s), and fill out some paperwork there or on the web, and bring a passport. Is that correct?
As many of us will be flying at places that have known us for years, our identity is hardly in doubt - but I see where the TSA are coming from if one turns up at a place where one is not known. It still seems a bit odd to have to prove one's identity at a place where it is not in doubt.
Would the person be able to carry the original (or a copy) of this info pack on themselves, or what?
Suppose someone is staying in Naples and has regularly flown with you, maybe having trained at NAC, but is now staying current and just flying for pleasure (i.e. not actually training for a rating) and then they go to (say) Sarasota and want to fly there. Would they have to go to the police, or wherever, there and be fingerprinted again, and go through the whole process again?
Seems like a lot of paperwork......... , but I'm not complaining, just asking.
As an aside, one of the largest flight training and renting organisations here in the UK have asked their members to bring in passports and a household utility bill, so that they can keep a copy on file. This, despite the fact that they wrote to me (and other members/friends) at our homes (i.e. TO OUR ADDRESSES!) - asking for this, and in my case, including my new membership card and airfield car park permit, both of which have my photo on them, a photo which they took :-) - and, yes, they've known me for years.........
Your answers and comments please.
Regards.
FTD