Jodel D9 flying tips wanted
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Ludwig
Tell your mate to get his PPL and enjoy his D9. It really is a simple delightful aircraft to fly. Most insurance company's would be interested in total time. A good TD conversion would suffice in the no of hours in the tailwheel department, with a good school he could do it as part of his PPL.
FFF 50 hours tailwheel!!! Where did you get that one from. Please would people try and dispel the myth about tailwheel flying. With some decent instruction and a bit of common sense it is NOT difficult. It is a simple skill which can be easily taught in a few hours by GOOD instructors. We are not talking about Harvards and Spits.
Robin; what is wrong with a pre PPL buying a D9, as long as he is trained properly then NO problem.
Sorry dismounting high horse. We have enough trouble with the authorities et al putting obstacles in peoples way. Why oh why do we insist on putting imaginary obstacles in peoples way.
Ludwig Cant wait to get back in the Harvard in Nov myself, bit of a bus though. Now how about a YAK52 td?
Love to all
Wide
Tell your mate to get his PPL and enjoy his D9. It really is a simple delightful aircraft to fly. Most insurance company's would be interested in total time. A good TD conversion would suffice in the no of hours in the tailwheel department, with a good school he could do it as part of his PPL.
FFF 50 hours tailwheel!!! Where did you get that one from. Please would people try and dispel the myth about tailwheel flying. With some decent instruction and a bit of common sense it is NOT difficult. It is a simple skill which can be easily taught in a few hours by GOOD instructors. We are not talking about Harvards and Spits.
Robin; what is wrong with a pre PPL buying a D9, as long as he is trained properly then NO problem.
Sorry dismounting high horse. We have enough trouble with the authorities et al putting obstacles in peoples way. Why oh why do we insist on putting imaginary obstacles in peoples way.
Ludwig Cant wait to get back in the Harvard in Nov myself, bit of a bus though. Now how about a YAK52 td?
Love to all
Wide
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Forgive me if I am making a generalisation, but most pilots are not trained in permit aircraft, but in 152s/PA28s and operate from licenced airfields.
To move straight into a D9 - light, under-powered, tailwheel etc and to fly it off a farm strip as well (who will be keeping an eye on him???) seems quite a leap.
If he is to undergo good tailwheel training, get farm strip experience with others etc etc, then there shouldn't be a problem as it is a forgiving beast
But to buy a plane, such as a D9, before completing a PPL - ie by definition, buying a plane he cannot know he is capable of flying - does not exactly sound sensible.
I just hope, for the Jodel's sake, he learns quickly, as there are a lot of nasty surprises waiting for him
To move straight into a D9 - light, under-powered, tailwheel etc and to fly it off a farm strip as well (who will be keeping an eye on him???) seems quite a leap.
If he is to undergo good tailwheel training, get farm strip experience with others etc etc, then there shouldn't be a problem as it is a forgiving beast
But to buy a plane, such as a D9, before completing a PPL - ie by definition, buying a plane he cannot know he is capable of flying - does not exactly sound sensible.
I just hope, for the Jodel's sake, he learns quickly, as there are a lot of nasty surprises waiting for him
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Robin,
I also think that you are exagerating the downside. No one in their right mind jumps into an aeroplane that they are not capable of flying. I gues the Tyro- pilot has decided for one of many reasons that the D9 is for him and he will be mature and responsible enough to ensure that he is fully acquainted with flying similar variants before he launches himself into a pre-ordained problem.
FFF - think that you are miles out on insurance. My young chum, aged 17 and about to purchase a light, VW under-powered single seat taildragger was told, all you need is a TD endorsement and we'll take your £700 a year thanks.
It's a D9 not a firebreathing Sukhoi, my bloody dog could fly it - and the cornflake packet it came in! In fact, my dog gave me the speeds for the my first post on this topic!
Stik
I also think that you are exagerating the downside. No one in their right mind jumps into an aeroplane that they are not capable of flying. I gues the Tyro- pilot has decided for one of many reasons that the D9 is for him and he will be mature and responsible enough to ensure that he is fully acquainted with flying similar variants before he launches himself into a pre-ordained problem.
FFF - think that you are miles out on insurance. My young chum, aged 17 and about to purchase a light, VW under-powered single seat taildragger was told, all you need is a TD endorsement and we'll take your £700 a year thanks.
It's a D9 not a firebreathing Sukhoi, my bloody dog could fly it - and the cornflake packet it came in! In fact, my dog gave me the speeds for the my first post on this topic!
Stik
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Wide/Stik - I hope you are both right about the insurance! As I said, I don't know for sure, I've never looked into it in that much detail, so if I'm wrong then I apologise.
Wide, I agree that flying a taildragger is not a difficult skill, given the correct instruction. The only thing which concerns me is that it is a single-seater. When transitioning to any new type, a moderately experienced pilot will quickly draw on his previous experiences to adapt his technique to the new aircraft. An inexperienced pilot, however, is not so capable of doing that, and is generally reliant on having an instructor next to him, even if only for an hour or two, to keep him safe until he has developed the correct technique. This applies even for conversions on very similar aircraft.... my own conversion from PA28 to PA28R a few years ago resulted in a few nasty arrivals onto the runway because of my relative inexperience at the time, and new PPLs moving from C152 to C172 or vice versa encounter similar problems. When moving onto a single-seater aircraft, the option of having an instructor next to you is not available, so surely you must have enough experience to be able to work out something close to the correct technique by yourself, on your first flight? And since landing a taildragger is not the same as landing a typical tricycle training aircraft, having sufficient experience must surely include a reasonable amount of taildragger flying???
FFF
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Wide, I agree that flying a taildragger is not a difficult skill, given the correct instruction. The only thing which concerns me is that it is a single-seater. When transitioning to any new type, a moderately experienced pilot will quickly draw on his previous experiences to adapt his technique to the new aircraft. An inexperienced pilot, however, is not so capable of doing that, and is generally reliant on having an instructor next to him, even if only for an hour or two, to keep him safe until he has developed the correct technique. This applies even for conversions on very similar aircraft.... my own conversion from PA28 to PA28R a few years ago resulted in a few nasty arrivals onto the runway because of my relative inexperience at the time, and new PPLs moving from C152 to C172 or vice versa encounter similar problems. When moving onto a single-seater aircraft, the option of having an instructor next to you is not available, so surely you must have enough experience to be able to work out something close to the correct technique by yourself, on your first flight? And since landing a taildragger is not the same as landing a typical tricycle training aircraft, having sufficient experience must surely include a reasonable amount of taildragger flying???
FFF
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FFF
FFF In my experience, it is the natural ability of the pilot that causes the difference. A good pilot with correct training will find little difficulty in transitioning to any type of aircraft after a couple of hours. I would not like to comment on the difficulty you had from PA28 to PA28R. Most people only find the work transitioning to wobbly prop and gear, the landing is essentially the same whatever slight speed differences.
The majority of pilots I have seen have had no trouble flying Jodels, Cubs, Chipmunks etc. Landing a tail wheel is not difficult. My other half had less than a dozen hours tailwheel before flying her unique single seat pre war trainer. She has had no problems in flying a rather twitchy beast. This is due to good training and admittedly a high standard of personal discipline. Insurance by the way is sub £500.
Robin, whilst low experience is undoubtedly a major factor in aircraft accidents, you will probably find there are more caused by stupidity regardless of hours flown. I also hope you are more concerned for the pilots welfare of the D9 than the airframes.
Stick, what wise words as always. (Will pop up to Norfolk with FNG sometime)
All the best and a plea not to continue this myth that taildraggers are difficult. They just require good trainers and a healthy dollop of common sense
Wide
FFF In my experience, it is the natural ability of the pilot that causes the difference. A good pilot with correct training will find little difficulty in transitioning to any type of aircraft after a couple of hours. I would not like to comment on the difficulty you had from PA28 to PA28R. Most people only find the work transitioning to wobbly prop and gear, the landing is essentially the same whatever slight speed differences.
The majority of pilots I have seen have had no trouble flying Jodels, Cubs, Chipmunks etc. Landing a tail wheel is not difficult. My other half had less than a dozen hours tailwheel before flying her unique single seat pre war trainer. She has had no problems in flying a rather twitchy beast. This is due to good training and admittedly a high standard of personal discipline. Insurance by the way is sub £500.
Robin, whilst low experience is undoubtedly a major factor in aircraft accidents, you will probably find there are more caused by stupidity regardless of hours flown. I also hope you are more concerned for the pilots welfare of the D9 than the airframes.
Stick, what wise words as always. (Will pop up to Norfolk with FNG sometime)
All the best and a plea not to continue this myth that taildraggers are difficult. They just require good trainers and a healthy dollop of common sense
Wide
Northern Monkey
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Taildraggers arent hard that hard to fly. Before Tricycle aircraft came about, people used to solo in the same amount of time, but in tail draggers, had the average skill of the person learning to fly deteriorated in 40 years? Every year, the Air Cadet Organisation sends Hundreds of 16-20yr olds solo, in tail wheel aircraft, generally with about 8 - 10 hours total time.
The secret? The same as with every aircraft, just slightly more critical with a tail dragger. Fly the right speeds. Fly the wrong speed, and you will generally make a mess of it, as with most aircraft.
Perhaps flying between 2 strips on the first flight isnt the best of plans, but with a good brief from an experienced tail wheel instructor, a few circuits to get the feel of the aircraft, then off you go. The aircraft isnt clever enough to know its landing at a different airfield to where it took off.
If it was hard, then I couldnt do it.....
The secret? The same as with every aircraft, just slightly more critical with a tail dragger. Fly the right speeds. Fly the wrong speed, and you will generally make a mess of it, as with most aircraft.
Perhaps flying between 2 strips on the first flight isnt the best of plans, but with a good brief from an experienced tail wheel instructor, a few circuits to get the feel of the aircraft, then off you go. The aircraft isnt clever enough to know its landing at a different airfield to where it took off.
If it was hard, then I couldnt do it.....
Last edited by NinjaBill; 20th Sep 2004 at 22:26.
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Wide-body
The pilot is going to make his own mind up. If he screws up on landing or take-off, he is likely only to hurt himself, but it would lead to the loss of a nice aeroplane
When I was a snotty-nosed novice (last week, I think), we were told one of the worst sins was over-confidence in our ability.
I can't know how good a pilot the new owner is likely to be - he could be brilliant, and yes, the D9 is an easy plane to get to know. I'd like to know what he has been trained on and the sort of environment he was trained at - is it somewhere like WW or Enstone, or one of the bigger fields.
I wonder what sort of loading the insurance company would make, if the new owner has no tailwheel time at present.
But flying out of strips when you are a newly qualified pilot, just seems to me to be running before you can walk. I just have this image of someone who hasn't even waited to get the licence before buying an aircraft, and one where there is no chance of sitting beside another pilot - just in case.
Lots of people have converted successfully to types like this, but I'd have thought it easier and safer to go for, say a 112 or 120, than the D9.
The pilot is going to make his own mind up. If he screws up on landing or take-off, he is likely only to hurt himself, but it would lead to the loss of a nice aeroplane
When I was a snotty-nosed novice (last week, I think), we were told one of the worst sins was over-confidence in our ability.
I can't know how good a pilot the new owner is likely to be - he could be brilliant, and yes, the D9 is an easy plane to get to know. I'd like to know what he has been trained on and the sort of environment he was trained at - is it somewhere like WW or Enstone, or one of the bigger fields.
I wonder what sort of loading the insurance company would make, if the new owner has no tailwheel time at present.
But flying out of strips when you are a newly qualified pilot, just seems to me to be running before you can walk. I just have this image of someone who hasn't even waited to get the licence before buying an aircraft, and one where there is no chance of sitting beside another pilot - just in case.
Lots of people have converted successfully to types like this, but I'd have thought it easier and safer to go for, say a 112 or 120, than the D9.
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Wide-Body
It's pilots who think a 'wobbly prop and gear' are no real difference that fill AAIB reports. The gear esp.
When I changed from the Pa28 barge to the Arrow you really notice the change of pace / increased work load.
Plus the flying or more landing characteristics are vastly different. Mainly due to the higher approach speed and extra weight the moving gear causes. You really need to fly a Pa28R on the the tarmac, as apposed to a Pa28 Warrior where you aim, glide then just chop the power and its all over.
It's pilots who think a 'wobbly prop and gear' are no real difference that fill AAIB reports. The gear esp.
When I changed from the Pa28 barge to the Arrow you really notice the change of pace / increased work load.
Plus the flying or more landing characteristics are vastly different. Mainly due to the higher approach speed and extra weight the moving gear causes. You really need to fly a Pa28R on the the tarmac, as apposed to a Pa28 Warrior where you aim, glide then just chop the power and its all over.
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Robin - as there is no legal requirement for insurance, the insurance company can not effectivelty stipulate any minimums as they are very likely to lose business. You can phone around all the brokers in the back of Pilot magazine and you will find that there are only very few underwriters that will write aviation business. Effectively it is the brokers not the insurers who attempt to stipulate a set of requirements and as the market is very small and they all know each other, they can very effectively be played against each other.
What they may do is increase the excess for the first n hours.
Were this a Pitts or a YAK50 or a C195 then I would be a little more concerned for Tyro and the aircraft but because it's a low powered taildragger that really will only fly when the conditions are perfect, I don't feel the need to worry. If he breaks it, it will be repairable - if he hurts himself it will probably be minor.
A few circuits as previously stated then off he should go.
Stik
What they may do is increase the excess for the first n hours.
Were this a Pitts or a YAK50 or a C195 then I would be a little more concerned for Tyro and the aircraft but because it's a low powered taildragger that really will only fly when the conditions are perfect, I don't feel the need to worry. If he breaks it, it will be repairable - if he hurts himself it will probably be minor.
A few circuits as previously stated then off he should go.
Stik
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I hear what you are saying, and stand corrected.
My point is still the same. The D9 is a good early steed, and I am sure that the new owner will have lots of fun with it.
My later points are more general and concern conversion to a new type - any new type.
My point is still the same. The D9 is a good early steed, and I am sure that the new owner will have lots of fun with it.
My later points are more general and concern conversion to a new type - any new type.
Just another number
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Croqueteer
Empty weight approx 198kgs (individual aircraft might vary slightly)
MTOW 320kgs
Fuel capacity 36 litres
A delightful aircraft to fly. Should be no problem for a low-hour PPL so long as he/she has some good tailwheel instruction.
Airclues
Empty weight approx 198kgs (individual aircraft might vary slightly)
MTOW 320kgs
Fuel capacity 36 litres
A delightful aircraft to fly. Should be no problem for a low-hour PPL so long as he/she has some good tailwheel instruction.
Airclues
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Oscar
Sorry, I thought I had put in my post that, the work in converting PA28-PA28R WAS in the prop and gear, if that was not clear I appologise. I totally agree that is where the workload goes up and capacity buckets overflow. The landing, abeit slightly quicker is less likely to cause so many problems as the systems.
All the best
Wide
Sorry, I thought I had put in my post that, the work in converting PA28-PA28R WAS in the prop and gear, if that was not clear I appologise. I totally agree that is where the workload goes up and capacity buckets overflow. The landing, abeit slightly quicker is less likely to cause so many problems as the systems.
All the best
Wide
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Thanks, Airclues. Your handle reminds me of one of the best stories in "Airclues" (The RAF safety mag), of a Canberra just airborne with an emergency that was inevitabley going to end with a crash, but in the meantime with plenty of fuel to hold. The skipper called ATC with a message to the station CO to convene his court martial, tell him what he should have done, and he would do it.
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To expand/ hijack the thread slightly, can any d9 pilots offer a pilot's perspective/briefing on flying said aircraft? I'm buying a share in one and so i guess i'm going to have to fly it at some point...
thanks!
thanks!
I've sent many people on their first fligth in the Bebe. Its never been a problem (but I can still remember my apprehension for the first flight).
My breifing very simple. Let it fly off the (very long) runway, climb, cruise and approach at 60 kt. What could be easier?
I think that everybody takes to flying it, the trickier point is taxying (with no brakes or stearing on ours), but you soon get used to that, just don't fly when the wind is too strong. I find more than 10 kt gets tricky and 15 kt total wind would be my limit.
S&R - I'm sure you'll love it!
My breifing very simple. Let it fly off the (very long) runway, climb, cruise and approach at 60 kt. What could be easier?
I think that everybody takes to flying it, the trickier point is taxying (with no brakes or stearing on ours), but you soon get used to that, just don't fly when the wind is too strong. I find more than 10 kt gets tricky and 15 kt total wind would be my limit.
S&R - I'm sure you'll love it!
