Old Warden infringements on 5.9.04
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Old Warden infringements on 5.9.04
During Sundays display we had 2 infringements to my knowledge.
The first was an overflight by a light single - registration obtained apparently.
The second was personal....
I was downwind in the Magister on a tight left hand circuit onto 21 at around 600 ft when I met a blue and white low wing single - possibly a Cherokee - in the opposite direction. He was approximately 300ft further out and 50ft higher than me.
He then turned left and descended to low level - well below 500ft - before departing East.
Blind or what?
Even if he hadn't read Notams, common sense demands vigilance on a summer sunday when near OW, or anywhere else for that matter.
An unexpected fright when you have the comfort of a Notam-promulgated TSRA.
Had I done a higher/ further 'normal' circuit then things might have been different.
HP.
The first was an overflight by a light single - registration obtained apparently.
The second was personal....
I was downwind in the Magister on a tight left hand circuit onto 21 at around 600 ft when I met a blue and white low wing single - possibly a Cherokee - in the opposite direction. He was approximately 300ft further out and 50ft higher than me.
He then turned left and descended to low level - well below 500ft - before departing East.
Blind or what?
Even if he hadn't read Notams, common sense demands vigilance on a summer sunday when near OW, or anywhere else for that matter.
An unexpected fright when you have the comfort of a Notam-promulgated TSRA.
Had I done a higher/ further 'normal' circuit then things might have been different.
HP.
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I can't help feeling that there is scope for a separate page on the NOTAMs site devoted just to airshows.
After all, most shows are organised a year in advance and even if this proposed page listed them a a one line event such as "Sept 5th Old Warden Bucks", that should be enough to warn most pilots to stay clear.
A link to the Notam could be added later, when its available.
I feel that all the info. necessary for a full pre-flight briefing is available, its just that its a real pain trying to collect it.
Theres obvious a market for a one-stop pre-flight brief site. Click - Met - click - airshows - click - Red Arrows - click - Purple Airspace - click -logoff.
After all, most shows are organised a year in advance and even if this proposed page listed them a a one line event such as "Sept 5th Old Warden Bucks", that should be enough to warn most pilots to stay clear.
A link to the Notam could be added later, when its available.
I feel that all the info. necessary for a full pre-flight briefing is available, its just that its a real pain trying to collect it.
Theres obvious a market for a one-stop pre-flight brief site. Click - Met - click - airshows - click - Red Arrows - click - Purple Airspace - click -logoff.
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Someone told me recently that when the Shoreham airshow was on, there were at least two per day that called the field asking for information. The atco asked if they were part of the display each time and they didn't have a clue. Amazing isn't it.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Interesting.....
Not knowing about an airshow is a sign of not having read NOTAMs.
The incident which HP is describing, though, does not sound like a case of not reading NOTAMs. Even if a pilot is unaware of the day's activities, flying through an active airfield's circuit without making radio contact is not generally the done thing. And then, according to HP's account, the aircraft proceeded to descend to a height which would most probably have resulted in breaking low-flying rules.
But let's also remember that there are always two sides to a story. Perhaps the pilot was lost - thought he was somewhere other than where he actually was? No doubt as soon as he realised his mistake, he immediately called 121.5, or possibly Luton, for assistance, and would be very embarrased if he realised what he'd done.....???
FFF
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Not knowing about an airshow is a sign of not having read NOTAMs.
The incident which HP is describing, though, does not sound like a case of not reading NOTAMs. Even if a pilot is unaware of the day's activities, flying through an active airfield's circuit without making radio contact is not generally the done thing. And then, according to HP's account, the aircraft proceeded to descend to a height which would most probably have resulted in breaking low-flying rules.
But let's also remember that there are always two sides to a story. Perhaps the pilot was lost - thought he was somewhere other than where he actually was? No doubt as soon as he realised his mistake, he immediately called 121.5, or possibly Luton, for assistance, and would be very embarrased if he realised what he'd done.....???
FFF
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With the Narrow Route system, if you enter your Easting/Westing or Northing/Southing coordinates incorrectly, then it is highly likely that you will not receive information for the area of transit AND that there are no NOTAMS for that wrong area to alert you.
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I think pilots also need to expand the width of the narrow route briefing too. One big CB on your track, or a bit of low cloud, and you could easily find yourself outside the width of your corridor.
As for a seperate page showing just airshows, wouldn't that encourage people to look at that, and considered themselves briefed? And they would just ignore the other notams?
You MUST read the notams properly, or you run the risk of missing something that you were legally obliged to know about.
I also happen to agree with FFF. This case sounds more like someone lost (although they may not have realised it yet), rather than on track but badly briefed.
dp
As for a seperate page showing just airshows, wouldn't that encourage people to look at that, and considered themselves briefed? And they would just ignore the other notams?
You MUST read the notams properly, or you run the risk of missing something that you were legally obliged to know about.
I also happen to agree with FFF. This case sounds more like someone lost (although they may not have realised it yet), rather than on track but badly briefed.
dp
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dublinpilot,
It seems quite random. With a 10nm width I seem to get NOTAM for stuff 40 or even 100s of nm away. However, when I widen the route suddenly I get that and more. It seems that somethings are marked to always show and others have a longer range and so are also included. I usually go for a 20nm width.
It seems quite random. With a 10nm width I seem to get NOTAM for stuff 40 or even 100s of nm away. However, when I widen the route suddenly I get that and more. It seems that somethings are marked to always show and others have a longer range and so are also included. I usually go for a 20nm width.
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CAVOK
Sandy Mast 972 ft with new lights!!!
A1
Cardington Hangers
2 Notams (1 ATZ, 1 Display)
Aircraft in the sky
Airfield, Windsock
LOST?
No way
Should they have even been flying?
I airprox report in the post, the other got away with it
FYI we are flying again next Saturday evening AND its NOTAMed
Please note our photographers are excellent. BEWARE.
Sandy Mast 972 ft with new lights!!!
A1
Cardington Hangers
2 Notams (1 ATZ, 1 Display)
Aircraft in the sky
Airfield, Windsock
LOST?
No way
Should they have even been flying?
I airprox report in the post, the other got away with it
FYI we are flying again next Saturday evening AND its NOTAMed
Please note our photographers are excellent. BEWARE.
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Theres obvious a market for a one-stop pre-flight brief site. Click - Met - click - airshows - click - Red Arrows - click - Purple Airspace - click -logoff.
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Grandad Biggles:
The next show is on 11th Sept? Well I've just been into the AIS notam site, put 11th in as date of flight, narrow route briefing to XWAR (the id it provides for Old Warden) and it shows NO NOTAMS at all for Old Warden for the period from now until 12th at 2359hrs! Now I'm no expert on using the site, but that shouldn't be required after all! Also many people on other threads have commented on how poor the site is. However that does give me cause for concern that I couldn't find a notam. (If I've got the date wrong, then put it down to finger trouble).
EDITED: Yes some finger trouble (date), however the display doesn't show against Old Warden as a destination, but was found further down. So looks like I take a hit, but also the AIS should take a hit for not listing the notam against the destination! Also slightly different info displayed depending on using XWAR or EGTH, and merely doing an aerodrome brief doesn't show it at all!!!
BTW saw the one infringement, but not HP's.
ATB, H
The next show is on 11th Sept? Well I've just been into the AIS notam site, put 11th in as date of flight, narrow route briefing to XWAR (the id it provides for Old Warden) and it shows NO NOTAMS at all for Old Warden for the period from now until 12th at 2359hrs! Now I'm no expert on using the site, but that shouldn't be required after all! Also many people on other threads have commented on how poor the site is. However that does give me cause for concern that I couldn't find a notam. (If I've got the date wrong, then put it down to finger trouble).
EDITED: Yes some finger trouble (date), however the display doesn't show against Old Warden as a destination, but was found further down. So looks like I take a hit, but also the AIS should take a hit for not listing the notam against the destination! Also slightly different info displayed depending on using XWAR or EGTH, and merely doing an aerodrome brief doesn't show it at all!!!
BTW saw the one infringement, but not HP's.
ATB, H
Last edited by TD&H; 8th Sep 2004 at 14:16.
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EDITED: Yes some finger trouble (date), however the display doesn't show against Old Warden as a destination, but was found further down. So looks like I take a hit, but also the AIS should take a hit for not listing the notam against the destination! Also slightly different info displayed depending on using XWAR or EGTH, and merely doing an aerodrome brief doesn't show it at all!!!
The Old Warden NOTAM would be a Nav Warning (starts with NAVW) because it extends outside the ATZ. It will therefore appear in the En-Route section of a briefing, not in the Aerodromes section
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Vintage ATCO, OK I've learned some more about the notam system, but I feel it's daft it not being in the aerodrome part. Quickest way of seeing if something effects your destination (or an airport near to your route, or the alternate) is to look at the aerodrome part of the notams, not expect to go search elsewhere!
However we could be going off thread here. But does it help show how easy info could be overlooked.
Thanks for the explanation. Still amazed by the infringements at OW.
However we could be going off thread here. But does it help show how easy info could be overlooked.
Thanks for the explanation. Still amazed by the infringements at OW.
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Not getting notams is firstly a failure of the lousy standard of PPL training, where historically the instructor would have a quick thumb through the day's notam printout pinned to the board before climbing into some plane which started its life before Gatwick was invented, and teaching navigation the good old way it was taught before the first plane capable of crossing the Atlantic was built.
But times have changed - we now have the internet!
It is a failure of many airfields for not providing internet access. It is only via the net that one can get the narrow route briefing. The other briefings contain too much rubbish for the average PPL to want to wade through.
What do the CAA do? They print up a load of booklets with premium rate numbers............ yeah right, every pilot is really going to phone them.
It is also a failure of the training to not tell students about the many points on the chart which have names e.g. CPT, KIDLI, SWB - all these can be entered into the ais briefing spec to extract a notam listing for the area. It is very rarely indeed that one should need to enter lat/long coordinates - just like in a VFR flight plan. These "places" are very useful - even if one was never taught how to actually navigate to any of them
Avbrief is a great site and I use it for every flight, but regrettably their notam function isn't yet multi-leg like the ais one is. Navbox now has a link to the Avbrief site which is another big step forward but it doesn't yet appear to work properly.
Surely the narrow route briefing DOES show airshows, royal flights etc, in fact everything whose circle intersects the route. One cannot specify an aerodrome in the briefing form anyway because aerodrome designations (e.g. EGxx) are not valid ICAO flight plan waypoints. One can specify a navaid located there (or nearby), an airways intersection, or a VOR radial/distance.
But times have changed - we now have the internet!
It is a failure of many airfields for not providing internet access. It is only via the net that one can get the narrow route briefing. The other briefings contain too much rubbish for the average PPL to want to wade through.
What do the CAA do? They print up a load of booklets with premium rate numbers............ yeah right, every pilot is really going to phone them.
It is also a failure of the training to not tell students about the many points on the chart which have names e.g. CPT, KIDLI, SWB - all these can be entered into the ais briefing spec to extract a notam listing for the area. It is very rarely indeed that one should need to enter lat/long coordinates - just like in a VFR flight plan. These "places" are very useful - even if one was never taught how to actually navigate to any of them
Avbrief is a great site and I use it for every flight, but regrettably their notam function isn't yet multi-leg like the ais one is. Navbox now has a link to the Avbrief site which is another big step forward but it doesn't yet appear to work properly.
Surely the narrow route briefing DOES show airshows, royal flights etc, in fact everything whose circle intersects the route. One cannot specify an aerodrome in the briefing form anyway because aerodrome designations (e.g. EGxx) are not valid ICAO flight plan waypoints. One can specify a navaid located there (or nearby), an airways intersection, or a VOR radial/distance.
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The Old Warden NOTAM would be a Nav Warning (starts with NAVW) because it extends outside the ATZ.
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Gertie,
Old Warden has a temporary ATZ established for Air Displays. This taken from from the NOTAMs:
TEMPO ATZ ESTABLISHED FOR FLYING DISPLAYS AT OLD WARDEN AD, 2NM RAD 520519N
0001906W FM SFC/2000FT AAL, DATES/TIMES AS BLW: 05 SEP 0800-1800, 11 SEP 0900-SS.
AFIS AVBL ON FREQ 130.700MHZ, AFISO UNIT CONTACT 01767 627563
As far as my own checking for NOTAMs goes, I choose the FIR option, sort by Geography (South to North), exclude foreign NOTAMs, etc etc to cut down the list to exactly what is relevant, then i scan read everything. That way, I dont miss anything, and I also get a manageable list that is not too long..
It's not that much of a problem really, although a graphical map presentaion, clickable red dots for NOTAM location etc would be a much better solution, but then NATS/AIS seem to be set on using the present system..
Old Warden has a temporary ATZ established for Air Displays. This taken from from the NOTAMs:
TEMPO ATZ ESTABLISHED FOR FLYING DISPLAYS AT OLD WARDEN AD, 2NM RAD 520519N
0001906W FM SFC/2000FT AAL, DATES/TIMES AS BLW: 05 SEP 0800-1800, 11 SEP 0900-SS.
AFIS AVBL ON FREQ 130.700MHZ, AFISO UNIT CONTACT 01767 627563
As far as my own checking for NOTAMs goes, I choose the FIR option, sort by Geography (South to North), exclude foreign NOTAMs, etc etc to cut down the list to exactly what is relevant, then i scan read everything. That way, I dont miss anything, and I also get a manageable list that is not too long..
It's not that much of a problem really, although a graphical map presentaion, clickable red dots for NOTAM location etc would be a much better solution, but then NATS/AIS seem to be set on using the present system..
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Just as an aside, since clearly the infringements mentioned are different circumstances, the presence of an ATZ without ATC means that you can still legally fly within it, since neither a FISO nor the airfield operators have any power to prevent access to ATZ airspace.
Having said that, the pilot has to ensure that they comply with ANO Rules of the Air Article 39. Amongst other things, this means they would have to obtain aerodrome information from the FISO to enable them to conduct a safe flight within the ATZ.
The judgement and airmanship then exercised based on the information passed is up to the pilot involved. It would also depend on the quality and quantity of the information given as well. Being told of an air display would on most occasions make a pilot be wary of routeing near the airfield, however, if told the display currently taking place was by a low and slow aircraft remaining close to the airfield, AND you had the aircraft in sight, then you might judge flying a suitable distance from the observed activity is 'safe'.
If there is Restricted Airspace (such as a Red Arrows TRA), then you have no excuse for entering and cannot legally do so, except under any conditions related to the specific TRA. Was there a TRA at Old Warden during the 'alleged' infringements ??
Having said that, the pilot has to ensure that they comply with ANO Rules of the Air Article 39. Amongst other things, this means they would have to obtain aerodrome information from the FISO to enable them to conduct a safe flight within the ATZ.
The judgement and airmanship then exercised based on the information passed is up to the pilot involved. It would also depend on the quality and quantity of the information given as well. Being told of an air display would on most occasions make a pilot be wary of routeing near the airfield, however, if told the display currently taking place was by a low and slow aircraft remaining close to the airfield, AND you had the aircraft in sight, then you might judge flying a suitable distance from the observed activity is 'safe'.
If there is Restricted Airspace (such as a Red Arrows TRA), then you have no excuse for entering and cannot legally do so, except under any conditions related to the specific TRA. Was there a TRA at Old Warden during the 'alleged' infringements ??
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It is very rarely indeed that one should need to enter lat/long coordinates - just like in a VFR flight plan. These "places" are very useful - even if one was never taught how to actually navigate to any of them
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If there is Restricted Airspace (such as a Red Arrows TRA), then you have no excuse for entering and cannot legally do so, except under any conditions related to the specific TRA. Was there a TRA at Old Warden during the 'alleged' infringements ??
The ATZ (2nm/2000ft aal) is new this year, whenever there is an event on and therefore ATS manned, in an attempt to make people more aware there is something going on there. I agree it would be preferably if this was indicated on the chart, not sure if it is going to be. And presumably, for the benefit of some, on the GPS
