You are all Pratts.........
Spot on Rustle 
Having watched Shoreham Airport grow and update its facilities over the last 20 years, it is a shame that the training fleets haven't also moved with the times. I guess that the way in which the CAA PPL training was allowed to be exported by the UK authorities hasn't helped, but for no modern types to be in service is a sad indictement.
Having watched Shoreham Airport grow and update its facilities over the last 20 years, it is a shame that the training fleets haven't also moved with the times. I guess that the way in which the CAA PPL training was allowed to be exported by the UK authorities hasn't helped, but for no modern types to be in service is a sad indictement.
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For those who seem to be the self appointed "pretentious buzz word" police, please note the following definitions from the Oxford Dictionary:
Pluralistic: The adjective relating to forms of society embracing many minority groups and cultural traditions
Theorising: evolve theories
Analysis: detailed examination of elements of a structure
Strategy: long term plan or policy
Leverage: power to accomplish a purpose
Now I've always though that one of the better aspects of the English language was the provision of precise terms that avoid having to use mouthfuls of words to make a clear point.
As to MLS-12D's comments about my apparent suggestion that the journalist was in the right and GA in the wrong, I must confess to be somewhat surprised that a lawyer should make such a simplistic statement, since it is fairly clear that we live in a pluralistic society (refer to definition above) and consquently are affected by the many "rights and wrongs" perceived by different groups.
In fact I said
I see no inference of right or wrong in this statement, but rather a clear acknowledgement that a potentially dangerous opponent is active.
In fact, the only word I used in my post that could possibly be interpreted as a buzz word is "stakeholder" and that is more due to the bias that some people are expressing against consultants, than to the fact, which is that this word is accepted globally, in many walks of life, as describing those individuals or groups affected by any particular issue.
Furthermore, the very person complaining most vocally about pretentious buzz words was the perpetrator of wasting PPrune bandwith by listing a load of meaningless junk.
So, I am moved towards Slim Slag's conclusion, although my evidence is provided by evidence from a different observation.
Maybe the reporter has a point - some GA pilots do behave like pratts and as Mrs Gump says "stupid is as stupid does."
Pluralistic: The adjective relating to forms of society embracing many minority groups and cultural traditions
Theorising: evolve theories
Analysis: detailed examination of elements of a structure
Strategy: long term plan or policy
Leverage: power to accomplish a purpose
Now I've always though that one of the better aspects of the English language was the provision of precise terms that avoid having to use mouthfuls of words to make a clear point.
As to MLS-12D's comments about my apparent suggestion that the journalist was in the right and GA in the wrong, I must confess to be somewhat surprised that a lawyer should make such a simplistic statement, since it is fairly clear that we live in a pluralistic society (refer to definition above) and consquently are affected by the many "rights and wrongs" perceived by different groups.
In fact I said
So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game.
In fact, the only word I used in my post that could possibly be interpreted as a buzz word is "stakeholder" and that is more due to the bias that some people are expressing against consultants, than to the fact, which is that this word is accepted globally, in many walks of life, as describing those individuals or groups affected by any particular issue.
Furthermore, the very person complaining most vocally about pretentious buzz words was the perpetrator of wasting PPrune bandwith by listing a load of meaningless junk.
So, I am moved towards Slim Slag's conclusion, although my evidence is provided by evidence from a different observation.
Maybe the reporter has a point - some GA pilots do behave like pratts and as Mrs Gump says "stupid is as stupid does."
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I think this journos actually just doing his part of the propaganda to get acceptance that Shoreham should become Brighton City Airport and kick the people that use it out like at the other commercial airports.
I wouldn`t get hung up that is anything else.
Sadly vanity and egos are at play with Shorehams future not common sense.
It would be nice to think that democratic oversight could control it but I`ve heard that important announcements like new runways aren`t always even mentioned to the airport committee.....
I wouldn`t get hung up that is anything else.
Sadly vanity and egos are at play with Shorehams future not common sense.
It would be nice to think that democratic oversight could control it but I`ve heard that important announcements like new runways aren`t always even mentioned to the airport committee.....
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I don't really see strategic master plan in that journo's comment, just a red blooded rant. Just my humble reading of the situation.
I liked Surely Not's comment. I think the lack of momentum by the fuddies in the CAA towards silencing our very noisy a/c is pretty serious, but I can see where the problem stems (CoG, performance table adjustments, test flights,...). Sure it would cost us a few grand (a guess!) to install one of these devices but the difference it will make to GA would be worth it. Thinking aloud: Maybe, the CAA is protecting us by knowing full well that introducing such things would effective ground many makes for years or maybe forever.
Anybody know how noisy the new diesels are?
OK, thinking laterally here (a possible euphemism for a very stupid idea): But how impossible would it be to route the exhaust (and the noise) sideways rather than down?
FWIW, the impending Eurocharges maybe a good thing inasmuch that once we are paying our way, so to speak, flying a private a/c won't be seen so much as a privilege but a right by virtue of the dues paid. Hopefully, then it would be much more difficult for other parties to undermine GA to the extent to which it has been or is being.
I liked Surely Not's comment. I think the lack of momentum by the fuddies in the CAA towards silencing our very noisy a/c is pretty serious, but I can see where the problem stems (CoG, performance table adjustments, test flights,...). Sure it would cost us a few grand (a guess!) to install one of these devices but the difference it will make to GA would be worth it. Thinking aloud: Maybe, the CAA is protecting us by knowing full well that introducing such things would effective ground many makes for years or maybe forever.
Anybody know how noisy the new diesels are?
OK, thinking laterally here (a possible euphemism for a very stupid idea): But how impossible would it be to route the exhaust (and the noise) sideways rather than down?
FWIW, the impending Eurocharges maybe a good thing inasmuch that once we are paying our way, so to speak, flying a private a/c won't be seen so much as a privilege but a right by virtue of the dues paid. Hopefully, then it would be much more difficult for other parties to undermine GA to the extent to which it has been or is being.
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Rood
I think you make an important observation here.
There are many vested interests in life. If one vested interest is converting the airport from GA to commercial pax/cargo traffic, who are the stakeholders who wish to do this? (I realise that there are commercial GA operations, so I'm thinking airline type ops in using these words.)
Why would the journo, apparently, support their argument?
If you read the other post about the closure of 09/27 at Leeds, the symptoms of a pro commercial lobby can be seen there too, according to the poster.
I don't know if those with the vested interests are anti GA by philosophy or whether it's a case of accidental adversaries, but their actions certainly impact the GA community in an often negative way.
However, there are counter tactics. For example, identifying the stakeholders and then asking them to deny a terrible thing in public, e.g. "will you confirm that you do not intend to open Shoreham up as an H24x7 operation, with loads of night flights." There is a saying that one should suspect "he who denieth too strongly." It doesn't matter if the quesiton reflects their intentions, since you are not saying that they are intending to do it, just asking for asking for assurance and then you can turn the argument into why should we believe the assurance? Mischief making such as this can swing opinions too.
The example of Noam Chomsky stating words to the effect that "On balance, I believe that the holocaust did happen", opened up a whole new debate about the evidence, which had been accepted without argument until that point.
The secret is to find the aspect that the majority of the stakeholders will unite to regard as a common enemy.
It's a good thing that no one has yet come up with a "flying toffs" argument, that justifies taxing us heavily, since I believe that this would be relatively easy to sell to the great unwashed, playing strongly on the schadenfreude principle.
I think you make an important observation here.
There are many vested interests in life. If one vested interest is converting the airport from GA to commercial pax/cargo traffic, who are the stakeholders who wish to do this? (I realise that there are commercial GA operations, so I'm thinking airline type ops in using these words.)
Why would the journo, apparently, support their argument?
If you read the other post about the closure of 09/27 at Leeds, the symptoms of a pro commercial lobby can be seen there too, according to the poster.
I don't know if those with the vested interests are anti GA by philosophy or whether it's a case of accidental adversaries, but their actions certainly impact the GA community in an often negative way.
However, there are counter tactics. For example, identifying the stakeholders and then asking them to deny a terrible thing in public, e.g. "will you confirm that you do not intend to open Shoreham up as an H24x7 operation, with loads of night flights." There is a saying that one should suspect "he who denieth too strongly." It doesn't matter if the quesiton reflects their intentions, since you are not saying that they are intending to do it, just asking for asking for assurance and then you can turn the argument into why should we believe the assurance? Mischief making such as this can swing opinions too.
The example of Noam Chomsky stating words to the effect that "On balance, I believe that the holocaust did happen", opened up a whole new debate about the evidence, which had been accepted without argument until that point.
The secret is to find the aspect that the majority of the stakeholders will unite to regard as a common enemy.
It's a good thing that no one has yet come up with a "flying toffs" argument, that justifies taxing us heavily, since I believe that this would be relatively easy to sell to the great unwashed, playing strongly on the schadenfreude principle.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 11th Sep 2004 at 11:52.
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F3G
Is this guy indeed demonstrating a high degree of skill or just acting in ignorance?.
Can the locals shake the ignorance of a 60 year old journo who MAYBE has become somewhat set in his ways?.
I don't know so I won't judge but I wish I could be as confident as you that this attitude could be changed by the sort of actions you propose.
There is certainly sage advice in 'know your enemy' though and responding without understanding the right buttons to press is usually a bad idea.
Is this guy indeed demonstrating a high degree of skill or just acting in ignorance?.
Can the locals shake the ignorance of a 60 year old journo who MAYBE has become somewhat set in his ways?.
I don't know so I won't judge but I wish I could be as confident as you that this attitude could be changed by the sort of actions you propose.
There is certainly sage advice in 'know your enemy' though and responding without understanding the right buttons to press is usually a bad idea.
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FF
Perhaps the question should be "is he acting from personal prejudice or being steered?"
I am far from certain that his opinions could be altered, after all I do not know him and certainly don't wish to pass judgement on him - the article he wrote seemed to me to be controversial, buit arguable. He may be set in his ways or not.
In any event, I was suggesting making like uncomfortable for any vested interests looking to convert the airfield status, rather than the journalist.
Perhaps the question should be "is he acting from personal prejudice or being steered?"
I am far from certain that his opinions could be altered, after all I do not know him and certainly don't wish to pass judgement on him - the article he wrote seemed to me to be controversial, buit arguable. He may be set in his ways or not.
In any event, I was suggesting making like uncomfortable for any vested interests looking to convert the airfield status, rather than the journalist.
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Sadly F3G the 'flying toffs' argument is all too easy for the local journo. I remember a 'debate' in the local press about the 'rich toffs from Oxford University who play around at being pilots at weekends' disturbing the peace... that was a description of Oxford UAS at Benson! How the hell they think we are going to recruit and train intelligent RAF pilots without occasionally allowing them to fly aircraft is beyond me.
Tim
(used to being described as 'one of those hunting toffs', so I should know)
[edited for spelling!]
Tim
(used to being described as 'one of those hunting toffs', so I should know)
[edited for spelling!]
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the article he wrote seemed to me to be controversial, but arguable
As to MLS-12D's comments about my apparent suggestion that the journalist was in the right and GA in the wrong
IMHO, the "journalist" was not supporting any particular point of view, or representing any "stakeholders". If that was his intention, he would have made reasoned arguments, based upon objective facts. All he was trying to do was to be controversial, which apparently sells newspapers. The best thing to do is to have a private knashing of teeth about his silliness, and then ignore it. Next week he will have moved on to making some equally banal remark about unwed mothers, banking executives, or some other group.
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I think you`ll find the timing of this article is perhaps not entirely coincidental.
This week Worthing and Brighton Councils are considering the future of the airport.
Word Report on Shoreham Airport
Agenda
Seems to explain things.
Interesting part of the document is that these consultants only asked other airports if they were interested not low cost airlines who you`d expect to be keen. a la Thomson at Coventry
Smells fishy to me and its not just because I live near the sea
This week Worthing and Brighton Councils are considering the future of the airport.
Word Report on Shoreham Airport
Agenda
Seems to explain things.
Interesting part of the document is that these consultants only asked other airports if they were interested not low cost airlines who you`d expect to be keen. a la Thomson at Coventry
Smells fishy to me and its not just because I live near the sea
Last edited by Rood; 13th Sep 2004 at 17:29.
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This might seem off-topic but stay with it. Every year for 25 years, the local ATC squadron would host a Fly-in at a small private airstrip near Royston. They had a caravan with a control tower & radio, and the cadets would spend weeks learning such things as aerodrome/circuit procedures, marshalling etc, then set up camp for the weekend. Aircraft would come from all over, have a burger and a chat and the cadets loved it. I know this because used to be one of them, and being around real aeroplanes, with all the sounds and smells was completely enthralling.
This year, which was to be the events 25th aniversary, someone who owns an aircraft there started mouthing off about "insurance" and "liability" and whipped up a storm in a teacup that had the presumably desired result of scaring the bigwigs at cadet HQ off and the event was cancelled.
Result? Apart from a lot of disappointed cadets, are they/their parents now more or less likely to think of private pilots as a bunch of rich elitist selfish t**sers?
Nice one, whoever you are, Very Well Done. Though you can rest easy that no nasty little oik is going to spill ketchup on your shiny aeroplane, you've now created possibly 100 or more budding Anti's, and advanced my maybe a millimeter the mighty juggernaut that will one day mean none of us can fly at all.
Why bother worrying about hostile Journos when we've got idiots like this scoring own goals amongst us?
This year, which was to be the events 25th aniversary, someone who owns an aircraft there started mouthing off about "insurance" and "liability" and whipped up a storm in a teacup that had the presumably desired result of scaring the bigwigs at cadet HQ off and the event was cancelled.
Result? Apart from a lot of disappointed cadets, are they/their parents now more or less likely to think of private pilots as a bunch of rich elitist selfish t**sers?
Nice one, whoever you are, Very Well Done. Though you can rest easy that no nasty little oik is going to spill ketchup on your shiny aeroplane, you've now created possibly 100 or more budding Anti's, and advanced my maybe a millimeter the mighty juggernaut that will one day mean none of us can fly at all.
Why bother worrying about hostile Journos when we've got idiots like this scoring own goals amongst us?
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six sixty
I used ot be one of those visiting in Tiger Moth or Chipmunk. Used to be a fun little event and got used to having bats waved at me to make a sharp turn in the Tiger (no breaks and no steering!). All the same enjoyed going each year.
Great shame that suddenly it is unsafe and cadets and aircraft are likely to be engaged in some sort of massive incident.
I used ot be one of those visiting in Tiger Moth or Chipmunk. Used to be a fun little event and got used to having bats waved at me to make a sharp turn in the Tiger (no breaks and no steering!). All the same enjoyed going each year.
Great shame that suddenly it is unsafe and cadets and aircraft are likely to be engaged in some sort of massive incident.
