You are all Pratts.........
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I am inclined to think that if someone went out in southern England on a bright and sunny Sunday afternoon armed with noise measuring equipment, the decibel level would be far greater from lawnmowers, hedge trimmers, motorbikes etc and with a longer duration than that of light aircraft.
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No folks, you're all wrong. It says here that he's a top bloke.
They've even named a bus after him. Let's hope it drives round quietly, and doesn't make any noise resulting in even more fed up people
RC
They've even named a bus after him. Let's hope it drives round quietly, and doesn't make any noise resulting in even more fed up people
RC
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I don't know any journalists, but if publishing ill-founded sterotypes such as "little weekend planes (are) often flown by prattish pilots" is evidence of "the highest standards of professional integrity (in journalism)", then those standards are obviously low indeed.
One can only hope that the apparent tradition of naming buses after the dead becomes a fulfilled prophecy (I don't normally wish people ill, but those who combine the ability to influence public opinion with spite and gross irresponsibility are undeserving of any charity from their intended victims).
One can only hope that the apparent tradition of naming buses after the dead becomes a fulfilled prophecy (I don't normally wish people ill, but those who combine the ability to influence public opinion with spite and gross irresponsibility are undeserving of any charity from their intended victims).
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A three part question for those who think that this journo is a prat...
1 - what are stakeholders?
2 - why are they important?
3 - how can you influence their perspectives/feelings?
So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game.
I'll give you a clue - start thinking in pluralistic terms and theorising how others may perceive your flying.
Only when this analysis has been made, can a strategy be developed to engage the support of people who may be anti.
Calling skilled opponents childish names gets you "nil points" and ultimately loses the end game.
There are a lot a Shoreham based flyers on this BB and you know a lot more about your subject than the journo. You have considerable leverage.
What concrete steps are you going to take to reduce his influence and build yours, with your stakeholders?
1 - what are stakeholders?
2 - why are they important?
3 - how can you influence their perspectives/feelings?
So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game.
I'll give you a clue - start thinking in pluralistic terms and theorising how others may perceive your flying.
Only when this analysis has been made, can a strategy be developed to engage the support of people who may be anti.
Calling skilled opponents childish names gets you "nil points" and ultimately loses the end game.
There are a lot a Shoreham based flyers on this BB and you know a lot more about your subject than the journo. You have considerable leverage.
What concrete steps are you going to take to reduce his influence and build yours, with your stakeholders?
A three part question for those who think that this journo is a prat...
1 - what are stakeholders?
2 - why are they important?
3 - how can you influence their perspectives/feelings?
So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game.
I'll give you a clue - start thinking in pluralistic terms and theorising how others may perceive your flying.
Only when this analysis has been made, can a strategy be developed to engage the support of people who may be anti.
Calling skilled opponents childish names gets you "nil points" and ultimately loses the end game.
There are a lot a Shoreham based flyers on this BB and you know a lot more about your subject than the journo. You have considerable leverage.
What concrete steps are you going to take to reduce his influence and build yours, with your stakeholders?
Can anyone spot the management consultant?
1 - what are stakeholders?
2 - why are they important?
3 - how can you influence their perspectives/feelings?
So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game.
I'll give you a clue - start thinking in pluralistic terms and theorising how others may perceive your flying.
Only when this analysis has been made, can a strategy be developed to engage the support of people who may be anti.
Calling skilled opponents childish names gets you "nil points" and ultimately loses the end game.
There are a lot a Shoreham based flyers on this BB and you know a lot more about your subject than the journo. You have considerable leverage.
What concrete steps are you going to take to reduce his influence and build yours, with your stakeholders?
Can anyone spot the management consultant?
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Final 3 Greens,
You make valid points. I think!? However, in reality, it's only private flyers that are even going to take issue with this babble! non flyers will read it and file it away.
Unlike some very small but busy airfields, Shoreham is a big employer in the community. I'm not sure how many people are employed either directly by the airport or by one of the many flying schools, or by the franchised restaurants, or by the engineering firms etc etc needless to say it goes into several hundreds. Conversly AMEX is the biggest employer in Brighton and doesn't have more than 1,000 based in Brighton. So in community terms as well as airport terms, Shoreham Airport is quite a big player.
That said we fly over Brighton which is more densley populated than many urban areas so we have a lot of people to p1ss off and should be considerate to that too.
You make valid points. I think!? However, in reality, it's only private flyers that are even going to take issue with this babble! non flyers will read it and file it away.
Unlike some very small but busy airfields, Shoreham is a big employer in the community. I'm not sure how many people are employed either directly by the airport or by one of the many flying schools, or by the franchised restaurants, or by the engineering firms etc etc needless to say it goes into several hundreds. Conversly AMEX is the biggest employer in Brighton and doesn't have more than 1,000 based in Brighton. So in community terms as well as airport terms, Shoreham Airport is quite a big player.
That said we fly over Brighton which is more densley populated than many urban areas so we have a lot of people to p1ss off and should be considerate to that too.
F3G is absolutely spot on, and c-bert, he may be a management consultant, what if he /she is? Mr jurno has contacted countless numbers of readers, and expressed his opinion, some will have thought he's a pratt, some fence sitters may well have been convinced by his argument, others will already agree. So far a couple of people have come up with sensible suggestions, and F3G has given a clear, consise praeces of the action required, and pointed out simply that the jurno here has stolen a 'country mile' on the aviation community with his article. Well you can whinge on a bulletin board all you like, but it won't help your cause, or improve the publics perception of GA one little bit.
Imagine how effective GA would look at a planning hearing, when asked, what have you done for the environment/community to persuade us to approve your proposed development?. To respond with 'Well I copy pasted someones post on a bulletin board, and called him a management consultant!'
And, maxflyer, where will your argument get GA?. How would you propose people cut their grass/hedges? Most of the neighbours I have lived next to in the past 25 years have used ELECTRIC lawnmowers/trimmers. How much noise do they really make?, done any noise measurements?..thought not..... I can't recall any of the EHO's I ever dealt with telling me of problems with hedge/lawn cutting!. , Jurno's like the one in question can easily paint the picture of 'dawn to dusk hell under the flight path', for as long as they go unchallenged!. Most people can relate to a neighbour having to cut a hedge, but they ain't doing it every weekend dawn till dusk. Motorcycles can be noisy, bikers like myself (who have noisy, but legal bikes) are aware of the problems, however the few who don't give a shiney one, are giving the rest of us a bad name, and we will almost certainly face further legislation and restriction. So will you in the GA community do anything to improve your 'standing' in the comunity?, or continue to face the problems caused by councils like South Cambridgeshire was a few years back, over to you....
And just in case you're wondering c-bert, 24 years in aviation, 9 in airfield operations, including airfield and operations environmental management
Imagine how effective GA would look at a planning hearing, when asked, what have you done for the environment/community to persuade us to approve your proposed development?. To respond with 'Well I copy pasted someones post on a bulletin board, and called him a management consultant!'
And, maxflyer, where will your argument get GA?. How would you propose people cut their grass/hedges? Most of the neighbours I have lived next to in the past 25 years have used ELECTRIC lawnmowers/trimmers. How much noise do they really make?, done any noise measurements?..thought not..... I can't recall any of the EHO's I ever dealt with telling me of problems with hedge/lawn cutting!. , Jurno's like the one in question can easily paint the picture of 'dawn to dusk hell under the flight path', for as long as they go unchallenged!. Most people can relate to a neighbour having to cut a hedge, but they ain't doing it every weekend dawn till dusk. Motorcycles can be noisy, bikers like myself (who have noisy, but legal bikes) are aware of the problems, however the few who don't give a shiney one, are giving the rest of us a bad name, and we will almost certainly face further legislation and restriction. So will you in the GA community do anything to improve your 'standing' in the comunity?, or continue to face the problems caused by councils like South Cambridgeshire was a few years back, over to you....
And just in case you're wondering c-bert, 24 years in aviation, 9 in airfield operations, including airfield and operations environmental management
Odd that he wants more commercial flying out of Shoreham, especially when one of the main Scheduled services is operated by the 'ultra quiet..............................not' Trislander or Islander!
They must be the noisiest aircraft in and out of Shoreham!!
They must be the noisiest aircraft in and out of Shoreham!!
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Mike
I reckon the danger is that if someone drip feeds enough material over a period of time, it becomes accepted unconsciously as de facto.
This happens insidiously over a period of time and attitudinal/behavioural change is the result. Look at the history of smoking over the past half century or so - I'm not arguing the facts of smoking, but more the way that social psychology techniques have been applied and the change in public perception that has resulted.
The danger to GA is that it is a visible target - people do notice aeroplanes .... and unconcious links to data (presented as facts) do their dirty work.
The problem then becomes political influence. Pressure groups develop disproportional influence with Politicians and before you know it, decisions are being taken based on minority views and majority apathy.
So there you go. Best wishes to all at Shoreham, the terminal being a lovely piece of living/working history IMHO, located in a beautiful part of the country.
c-bert
Did you read my profile or did you figure that one out yourself?
I reckon the danger is that if someone drip feeds enough material over a period of time, it becomes accepted unconsciously as de facto.
This happens insidiously over a period of time and attitudinal/behavioural change is the result. Look at the history of smoking over the past half century or so - I'm not arguing the facts of smoking, but more the way that social psychology techniques have been applied and the change in public perception that has resulted.
The danger to GA is that it is a visible target - people do notice aeroplanes .... and unconcious links to data (presented as facts) do their dirty work.
The problem then becomes political influence. Pressure groups develop disproportional influence with Politicians and before you know it, decisions are being taken based on minority views and majority apathy.
So there you go. Best wishes to all at Shoreham, the terminal being a lovely piece of living/working history IMHO, located in a beautiful part of the country.
c-bert
Did you read my profile or did you figure that one out yourself?
Flies for fun
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Do you mean The Sage of Sussex?
Is this our revered Adam we are speaking of here? Adam has always been a much respected and controversial figure in Brighton who has for many years been an avid cyclist having used his trusty bike as company transport. He can often be seen peddling around the city on his bike.
Read this:
http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/ne...0721free.shtml
and this;
http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/ne...0716adam.shtml
Read this:
http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/ne...0721free.shtml
and this;
http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/ne...0716adam.shtml
GA in this country isn't helped by the attitude towards noise reduction from the CAA. I read an article in a GA magazine about the massive amount of work done to get some German made silencers certificated by the CAA, and the very positive difference it has made to operations out of White Waltham (I think?).
I believe I am still correct in thinking that a/c modified to meet the stricter German noise regs, have to be made 'full' noise again if imported to the UK. Now that is surely a complete nonsense and plays into the noise lobbyists hands.
On another thread, that is now being artificially allowed to drift into obscurity, there is mention that the training fleet at Shoreham is to all intents and purposes all Cessna and Piper designs with old technology engines. The new training designs with quieter engines have not made an appearance with the flight schools. If noise is going to become an issue then this failure to either re-equip with modern aircraft or modify older aircraft with silencers is going to bite the operators on their backsides.
How the journo can complain against the MD900 used by the police unit is a mystery to me as it is an amazingly quiet machine.
For a short while I was involved with the County Council at Chichester and it was clear that whenever aviation issues were discussed the vast majority of councillors, of all parties, were unaware of the advances made in the industry to become more user friendly. It wasn't lack of interest because they were happy to chat with me to find out more info when I challenged old misconceptions, just that their day to day life doesn't include general aviation. Very few realised the variety of businesses at Shoreham, and the colleges etc that are also based at the airport.
F3G is correct when he says that the community has to band together to involve and educate the local populace, and in particular the influencers. A local press that is onside is a very valuable asset.
I believe I am still correct in thinking that a/c modified to meet the stricter German noise regs, have to be made 'full' noise again if imported to the UK. Now that is surely a complete nonsense and plays into the noise lobbyists hands.
On another thread, that is now being artificially allowed to drift into obscurity, there is mention that the training fleet at Shoreham is to all intents and purposes all Cessna and Piper designs with old technology engines. The new training designs with quieter engines have not made an appearance with the flight schools. If noise is going to become an issue then this failure to either re-equip with modern aircraft or modify older aircraft with silencers is going to bite the operators on their backsides.
How the journo can complain against the MD900 used by the police unit is a mystery to me as it is an amazingly quiet machine.
For a short while I was involved with the County Council at Chichester and it was clear that whenever aviation issues were discussed the vast majority of councillors, of all parties, were unaware of the advances made in the industry to become more user friendly. It wasn't lack of interest because they were happy to chat with me to find out more info when I challenged old misconceptions, just that their day to day life doesn't include general aviation. Very few realised the variety of businesses at Shoreham, and the colleges etc that are also based at the airport.
F3G is correct when he says that the community has to band together to involve and educate the local populace, and in particular the influencers. A local press that is onside is a very valuable asset.
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Next we'll be told that, "going forward", we should "think outside the box" ("pluralistically", of course 
) about how we can "interface" with the "stakeholders" so as to "accomodate their concerns" and "bring them along". Obviously, a "competitive analysis" would should us how to "create value" and "empower" the "stakeholders" in an manner consistent with our "core mandate". 
Meaningless jargon. Why not just say that small aerodromes should:
(1) host an annual visitors' day at which neighbours and members of the press can be entertained and provided with short joy rides at little or no cost;
(2) endeavour to minimize noise disputes by (i) creating a community liason committee to receive and respond to complaints; and (ii) posting maps showing sensitive areas and detailing recommended procedures to avoid them.
) about how we can "interface" with the "stakeholders" so as to "accomodate their concerns" and "bring them along". Obviously, a "competitive analysis" would should us how to "create value" and "empower" the "stakeholders" in an manner consistent with our "core mandate". Meaningless jargon. Why not just say that small aerodromes should:
(1) host an annual visitors' day at which neighbours and members of the press can be entertained and provided with short joy rides at little or no cost;
(2) endeavour to minimize noise disputes by (i) creating a community liason committee to receive and respond to complaints; and (ii) posting maps showing sensitive areas and detailing recommended procedures to avoid them.
MLS-12D your first point is simply too little effort. If you want your airport/field to be an accepted part of the local community then you need the local community to feel that they can drop by at any time, and then they can see the real work that goes on at an airport like Shoreham.
Shoreham is fortunate in having two good public restaurants, plus it hosts music evenings and other events which are advertised locally. The Conference facilities are open for use by local businesses as well as on airport businesses.
That won't stop individuals expressing views such as the journo, but it will reduce the liklihood of people falling for the untruths.
As for point 2, isn't this fairly standard at airports? However wouldn't reducing the noise also be a good idea, especially when it is technically possible?
Shoreham is fortunate in having two good public restaurants, plus it hosts music evenings and other events which are advertised locally. The Conference facilities are open for use by local businesses as well as on airport businesses.
That won't stop individuals expressing views such as the journo, but it will reduce the liklihood of people falling for the untruths.
As for point 2, isn't this fairly standard at airports? However wouldn't reducing the noise also be a good idea, especially when it is technically possible?
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Management speak or otherwise I think you guys criticising F3G are aiming at the wrong target.
Remember: This thread was started because some wazzock journo wrote some crap -- not because management consulting affects flying out of Shoreham
Remember: This thread was started because some wazzock journo wrote some crap -- not because management consulting affects flying out of Shoreham
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Yes, fair enough. We only waste time by sniping at ourselves. But I just couldn't resist responding to his suggestion that the journalist was somehow in the right and aviation in the wrong (and the pretentious buzz words didn't help).