Building yer own....
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Building yer own....
Hi guys,
Haven't posted here for a while.... Just a quick question for the collective....
I'm about to embark on my PPL & was thinking of concurrently building a Velocity XL-RG to use on completion of same. I don't know much about how these things are licensed / regulated or if they are even insurable (sp? word?) in the UK/IRL.
I know Genghis has experience in the microlight type aircraft & may be able to shed some light?
I suppose the real question is: Has anyone out there built an experimental aircraft in the UK/IRL & if so, what pitfalls / red tape should I expect with same.
Any links to builders or licensing authority (experimental aircraft) websites would be sub-zero....
Also, anyone any experience of the Velocity?
Ta muchly,
FT
Haven't posted here for a while.... Just a quick question for the collective....
I'm about to embark on my PPL & was thinking of concurrently building a Velocity XL-RG to use on completion of same. I don't know much about how these things are licensed / regulated or if they are even insurable (sp? word?) in the UK/IRL.
I know Genghis has experience in the microlight type aircraft & may be able to shed some light?
I suppose the real question is: Has anyone out there built an experimental aircraft in the UK/IRL & if so, what pitfalls / red tape should I expect with same.
Any links to builders or licensing authority (experimental aircraft) websites would be sub-zero....
Also, anyone any experience of the Velocity?
Ta muchly,
FT
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FT - I have built one biplane from scratch, have rebuilt a vintage taildragger, currently have another scratch build bipe on the go and am rebuilding another for a mate.
Looked very closely at the Velocity during a visit to Oshkosh back in '99 as a septic friend, who came with me, was very keen to build one. On the whole I was very impressed.
I guess that your first move would be to contact both the PFA and the Irish equivalent and see what they think. I do not believe that it currently exists on the PFA list of approved designs but that may only be because until very recently, 4-seaters were not being approved and perhaps no one has shown any interest in the Velocity since the seating rule changed about 2 years ago.
Your second move really is to decide whether or not you can commit the time, energy and possess sufficient tenacity to see it to completion.
You have no idea how much work there is in building an aeroplane!
Stik
Looked very closely at the Velocity during a visit to Oshkosh back in '99 as a septic friend, who came with me, was very keen to build one. On the whole I was very impressed.
I guess that your first move would be to contact both the PFA and the Irish equivalent and see what they think. I do not believe that it currently exists on the PFA list of approved designs but that may only be because until very recently, 4-seaters were not being approved and perhaps no one has shown any interest in the Velocity since the seating rule changed about 2 years ago.
Your second move really is to decide whether or not you can commit the time, energy and possess sufficient tenacity to see it to completion.
You have no idea how much work there is in building an aeroplane!
Stik
Rules in Eire do not really support either homebuilding or any kind of US-experimental type system. This is why the majority of people building "interesting" aeroplanes in Ireland do so under supervision of the PFA or BMAA.
So, you really are limited, being practical here, to joining the PFA in Britain, and building something under their supervision. It gets worse I'm afraid, because the IAA are totally against any form of test flying being done in Irish airspace - even on Irish registered aeroplanes.
So, having built your aircraft, and done so under a British registration, you'll almost certainly have to trailer it North to somewhere like Newtonards for flight testing. Once it has it's UK Permit to Fly, the IAA will then however generally be quite happy to issue an Irish Flight Permit on the back of that.
Finally, the Velocity is a big complex aircraft to build - unless you are a timeserved engineering technician, or have built several other aeroplanes I'd not contemplate something of that complexity. Look at the PFA list and speak to other builders and pick something reasonably painless for a first build; on other words, something you might finish!
If it's not on the PFA list, or about to be (and take nobody's word on that except PFA Engineering), I'd not touch it - it will end in tears.
G
So, you really are limited, being practical here, to joining the PFA in Britain, and building something under their supervision. It gets worse I'm afraid, because the IAA are totally against any form of test flying being done in Irish airspace - even on Irish registered aeroplanes.
So, having built your aircraft, and done so under a British registration, you'll almost certainly have to trailer it North to somewhere like Newtonards for flight testing. Once it has it's UK Permit to Fly, the IAA will then however generally be quite happy to issue an Irish Flight Permit on the back of that.
Finally, the Velocity is a big complex aircraft to build - unless you are a timeserved engineering technician, or have built several other aeroplanes I'd not contemplate something of that complexity. Look at the PFA list and speak to other builders and pick something reasonably painless for a first build; on other words, something you might finish!
If it's not on the PFA list, or about to be (and take nobody's word on that except PFA Engineering), I'd not touch it - it will end in tears.
G
Hooray for ladybumps...
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Thanks for the info guys. It seems the IAA are quite the pain in the proverbials...
I'm an architect by trade so am reasonably technically minded - I've also got quite a bit of experience in restoring classic cars & building kits cars and I'm (un)lucky enough to have a best friend who is an aircraft engineer who said he'll give me a dig out with any of the difficult bits. It was also my intention to go for all the fast build options etc so I don't have to deal with fabricating the large structural components.
I wasn't expecting the process to be as complicated as it seems to be in Ireland, although if I can build it under the supervision of the PFA or BMAA as you suggest it may still be a possibility.
I'll go and have a chat with the PFA & find out how difficult the whole process is going to be.... It'd be a damn shame not to be able to build such a nice aeroplane here because of bureaucratic nonsense...
Thanks again for the heads up.
FT
I'm an architect by trade so am reasonably technically minded - I've also got quite a bit of experience in restoring classic cars & building kits cars and I'm (un)lucky enough to have a best friend who is an aircraft engineer who said he'll give me a dig out with any of the difficult bits. It was also my intention to go for all the fast build options etc so I don't have to deal with fabricating the large structural components.
I wasn't expecting the process to be as complicated as it seems to be in Ireland, although if I can build it under the supervision of the PFA or BMAA as you suggest it may still be a possibility.
I'll go and have a chat with the PFA & find out how difficult the whole process is going to be.... It'd be a damn shame not to be able to build such a nice aeroplane here because of bureaucratic nonsense...
Thanks again for the heads up.
FT
Last edited by fishtits; 12th Aug 2004 at 13:26.
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I was out at Waterford recently for the PTC fly in and there were 2 longezee aircraft there that were built by the owners at Waterford. The guys that built them told me they were on permits and they were covered in experimental stickers and that they had done everything there.
Did they have some exception to the rule?
Did they have some exception to the rule?
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fishtits,
I am currently building a Velocity Elite RG. It is a great kit. The plans are well laid out and the Velocity Team is very helpful. There is a support group called "The Reflector" that is very active via email. Regularly people fly into a field where a fellow builder is located and give helping hand.
The kit's engineering is excellent and the construction is easily done by someone with average skills.
I do hope you get one and enjoy it as much as I have.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
I am currently building a Velocity Elite RG. It is a great kit. The plans are well laid out and the Velocity Team is very helpful. There is a support group called "The Reflector" that is very active via email. Regularly people fly into a field where a fellow builder is located and give helping hand.
The kit's engineering is excellent and the construction is easily done by someone with average skills.
I do hope you get one and enjoy it as much as I have.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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FT - coincidentally I was browsing a back issue of Pilot mag last evening and there was a write up on an Ozzy Velocity.
In a sidebar there was a comment stating it was unlikely that the PFA would approve it as the designers were unable to supply the Association with stress calcs.
If I were really, realy, really super-serious about building one and no other aeroplane would EVER do, I'd:
a) contact the PFA to determine the veracity of para 2 above. If it was pukka
b) I'd arrange to have the stress calcs done by a suitably qualified person and I would submit those to the PFA. This is an expensive and tortuous path.
This may enable you to build a Velocity over here. But do be aware the PFA is VERY slow to turn these things around and I'd heed Ghengis' wise words in his earlier post:
"If it's not on the PFA list, or about to be (and take nobody's word on that except PFA Engineering), I'd not touch it - it will end in tears."
Stik - off to the workshop now for the next 8hrs!
In a sidebar there was a comment stating it was unlikely that the PFA would approve it as the designers were unable to supply the Association with stress calcs.
If I were really, realy, really super-serious about building one and no other aeroplane would EVER do, I'd:
a) contact the PFA to determine the veracity of para 2 above. If it was pukka
b) I'd arrange to have the stress calcs done by a suitably qualified person and I would submit those to the PFA. This is an expensive and tortuous path.
This may enable you to build a Velocity over here. But do be aware the PFA is VERY slow to turn these things around and I'd heed Ghengis' wise words in his earlier post:
"If it's not on the PFA list, or about to be (and take nobody's word on that except PFA Engineering), I'd not touch it - it will end in tears."
Stik - off to the workshop now for the next 8hrs!
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I may well be wrong but I thought the Velocity was approved by the PFA but only as a two-seater - the authorites get twitchy about four-seaters and require far more stress calc info.
This is why the Kis Cruiser is a two-seater and the Jabiru J400 - together with the J400 not using a certified motor which is another requirement for a four seat PFA Permit machine.
This is why the Kis Cruiser is a two-seater and the Jabiru J400 - together with the J400 not using a certified motor which is another requirement for a four seat PFA Permit machine.
Hooray for ladybumps...
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Richard,
Fair play to you... I wish I was living in the 'States - GA seems to be much less restricted over there, with much more flexibility given to the average Joe who wants to get airborne.. Ah well...
Stik,
I've just had a quick butchers at the PFA website and sure enough no sign of the Velocity.
There's no chance I'll have the time/money to spend getting a full stress test done on the fecker... I could prolly buy a similar mass produced plane for that kind of money...
It looks as though the Velocity could well remain a dream for me for the meantime.
Has anyone any idea if the same kind of restrictions apply to a "ready built" import from the 'States? Is this route a similar minefield?
Any chance you'll sell me yours Richard?
Cheers
FT
Fair play to you... I wish I was living in the 'States - GA seems to be much less restricted over there, with much more flexibility given to the average Joe who wants to get airborne.. Ah well...
Stik,
I've just had a quick butchers at the PFA website and sure enough no sign of the Velocity.
There's no chance I'll have the time/money to spend getting a full stress test done on the fecker... I could prolly buy a similar mass produced plane for that kind of money...
It looks as though the Velocity could well remain a dream for me for the meantime.
Has anyone any idea if the same kind of restrictions apply to a "ready built" import from the 'States? Is this route a similar minefield?
Any chance you'll sell me yours Richard?
Cheers
FT
Importing an "experimental" from the US is a huge minefield in the UK, and I'd expect it no better into Eire.
An N-registered CofA aircraft on the other hand should be fairly straightforward in most countries so long as you have an FAA licence and access to an FAA A&P mechanic to look after it.
G
An N-registered CofA aircraft on the other hand should be fairly straightforward in most countries so long as you have an FAA licence and access to an FAA A&P mechanic to look after it.
G
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Genghis,
Do you have any idea yet about what the situation is likely to be with regard to importing aircraft in the new FAA 'light-sport aircraft' class?
I do like my little machine, but under these new rules the US version will have so many more nice knobs and buttons to while away the hours, and a much more useful weight allowance when it comes to bringing the shopping home from France!
Do you have any idea yet about what the situation is likely to be with regard to importing aircraft in the new FAA 'light-sport aircraft' class?
I do like my little machine, but under these new rules the US version will have so many more nice knobs and buttons to while away the hours, and a much more useful weight allowance when it comes to bringing the shopping home from France!
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Has anyone any idea if the same kind of restrictions apply to a "ready built" import from the 'States? Is this route a similar minefield?"
FT, please, please please do not do this to yourself!
There are hundreds of a/c both on and off the PFA approved list that have been imported that are now either bonfire victims or looking sad and tacky on hangar walls, theme restaurants, etc.
If you MUST import something homebuilt THEN ENSURE that it is approved AND THEN SEND SOMEONE TOTALLY KNOWLEDGEABLE ON TYPE IN THE UK to inspect it for/with you.
I have first hand knowledge of a rather naive chap thinking that he could import an experimental Pitts from the States and fly it just by changing the N number to a G reg. Said a/c was bought sight unseen (2 tacky photos from th eweb) - he liked the colour (sorry color ).
A/c will NEVER fly on the G register unless serious work is undertaken to the fuselage and the wings are thrown away and new ones sourced! Too difficult!
Get your PPL, build some hours then reconsider your requirements.
Stik
FT, please, please please do not do this to yourself!
There are hundreds of a/c both on and off the PFA approved list that have been imported that are now either bonfire victims or looking sad and tacky on hangar walls, theme restaurants, etc.
If you MUST import something homebuilt THEN ENSURE that it is approved AND THEN SEND SOMEONE TOTALLY KNOWLEDGEABLE ON TYPE IN THE UK to inspect it for/with you.
I have first hand knowledge of a rather naive chap thinking that he could import an experimental Pitts from the States and fly it just by changing the N number to a G reg. Said a/c was bought sight unseen (2 tacky photos from th eweb) - he liked the colour (sorry color
).A/c will NEVER fly on the G register unless serious work is undertaken to the fuselage and the wings are thrown away and new ones sourced! Too difficult!
Get your PPL, build some hours then reconsider your requirements.
Stik
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Stik said
Now that is sensible advice. Your perception of flying will have changed dramatically once you have completed your PPL
Get your PPL, build some hours then reconsider your requirements.
Hooray for ladybumps...
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Stik,
I take your advice gratefully... Just seems kind of strange to me that an aircraft that has been successfully flying in the US for just under twenty years is not considered an "approved" design...
Ho hum... anyway, does anyone know of a good, comfortable 2 seater (4 preferable) PFA approved kit plane capable of 7-800 mile distances at a decent cruise as I intend to use it for business travel (read tax deductable flying)
Thanks,
FT
I take your advice gratefully... Just seems kind of strange to me that an aircraft that has been successfully flying in the US for just under twenty years is not considered an "approved" design...
Ho hum... anyway, does anyone know of a good, comfortable 2 seater (4 preferable) PFA approved kit plane capable of 7-800 mile distances at a decent cruise as I intend to use it for business travel (read tax deductable flying)
Thanks,
FT
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You need to look at Van's Aircraft and an RV-7 (2 seats) or the RV-10 (4 seats). RV-7 is PFA approved, the 10 will be soon with a number of UK owners about to build once the stress calcs etc have been worked out to sort out the authorities requirements in the UK for 4 seaters.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/
BTW I think it was the similar Cozy that has appeared in the UK rather than the Velocity, my mistake.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/
BTW I think it was the similar Cozy that has appeared in the UK rather than the Velocity, my mistake.
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FT,
Ah, SmartHawke beat me to it: I was going to suggest the Vans series. I'd also include the RV9 in the list, there's now a couple of these flying in the UK. If you want info about Vans aircraft in the UK the best place to look is The UK RV flyers' website
You need to be aware that in the UK (and the rest of Europe I suspect) kit built aircraft are restricted to Day VFR, and are not permitted to fly over congested areas
Brooklands
Ah, SmartHawke beat me to it: I was going to suggest the Vans series. I'd also include the RV9 in the list, there's now a couple of these flying in the UK. If you want info about Vans aircraft in the UK the best place to look is The UK RV flyers' website
I intend to use it for business travel
Brooklands
Hooray for ladybumps...
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Thanks for that Brooks, I wasn't aware of the limitations of use for kit planes - that sucks...
Looks like I'll be in the second-hand cessna market
Holy Shiat... and I thought the difficult bit would be the IR!
I think I'll just move to the 'States
Any room at your house Richard?
FT
Looks like I'll be in the second-hand cessna market
Holy Shiat... and I thought the difficult bit would be the IR!
I think I'll just move to the 'States
Any room at your house Richard?
FT
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fishtits,
Sorry, I was a little busy the last few days. I think you should move on over and build the plane of your dreams. It is a lot of fun.
It will take a little getting used to flying over here, since you do not have landing fees and you can fly though any airspace, even land your experimental aircraft at an international airport.
Happy Flying,
Richard
Sorry, I was a little busy the last few days. I think you should move on over and build the plane of your dreams. It is a lot of fun.
It will take a little getting used to flying over here, since you do not have landing fees and you can fly though any airspace, even land your experimental aircraft at an international airport.
Happy Flying,
Richard
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Fishtits (what a name !)
You should have a chat with someone from SAAC (The society of amateur aircraft constructors) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...7418/saac.html
Also check out http://www.geocities.com/zodiachds/index.html
This is a site about a Zenair Zodiac build in Ireland. Although it looks like the builder hasn't been in his workshop in a while it should give you good info about the build process over here.
The National Microlight Association of Ireland now oversees the construction of some microlight types (including the Xair) much the same as the BMAA in the UK.
Homebuilding in Ireland looks to be becoming more popular and do-able, even if you have to navagate the IAA
mH
You should have a chat with someone from SAAC (The society of amateur aircraft constructors) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...7418/saac.html
Also check out http://www.geocities.com/zodiachds/index.html
This is a site about a Zenair Zodiac build in Ireland. Although it looks like the builder hasn't been in his workshop in a while it should give you good info about the build process over here.
The National Microlight Association of Ireland now oversees the construction of some microlight types (including the Xair) much the same as the BMAA in the UK.
Homebuilding in Ireland looks to be becoming more popular and do-able, even if you have to navagate the IAA
mH
Hooray for ladybumps...
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Micro,
Thanks for the info... That certainly brightens up my day! I'll have a good look through the build site and get in contact with the SAAC to see if I can get some assistance for building/approving/testing the 'plane here.
Thanks again,
FT
Thanks for the info... That certainly brightens up my day! I'll have a good look through the build site and get in contact with the SAAC to see if I can get some assistance for building/approving/testing the 'plane here.
Thanks again,
FT
