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MATZ transit

Old 29th Jul 2004, 13:34
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MATZ transit

Sorry for what may appear a dumb question! when given a MATZ clearence am i expected to contact the tower for the ATZ or would this be included in the clearence,I asked an FI and he said he thinks it does. I have been through a MATZ once (Bensons) and that was only the stub

cheers
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 13:46
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Call the Zone controller if there is one (or App or Tower in that order, if not) and obey their instructions. (Silly arguments about receiving instructions/recommendations/polite requests/suggestions from ATC, and who is actually in command of the aircraft notwithstanding).

They will undoubtedly be very clear about whether the wish you to contact any other authority. It's never happened to me though.

Rgds,

TPK
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 13:48
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Hi,
Its been a couple of years since I have flown in the UK but Im pretty sure you dont actually need clearance to fly through a MATZ, though it is in your interest to talk to whoever is there and asking is the safest airmanship wise incase there is a flight of mil jets screaming around.... I specificly remember my UK instructor telling me this....You do need to ask to transit an ATZ though....

Sure someone more knowledgable will correct me if Im wrong though,

Regards, SD.
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 14:10
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You do need permission to enter a MATZ. If you are receiving a LARS you can often ask them.

For example, Waddington controls entry and transit of MATZ for about 5 bases in Lincolnshire, including Scampton, which may be out of bounds depending on what The Reds are doing. They are usually very accommodating at weekends but I suspect it would be harder during the week when they are active.
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 14:26
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It is actually not a legal requirement to ask for transit through a MATZ, but in most cases you'd be extremely stupid not to. You do, however, have to ask to enter the ATZ. In practise, you make one radio call, then follow instructions.
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 14:30
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To be utterly pedantic, as is my wont, of course, whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with Whirly, et al., the Scampton MATZ differs from others in that it is coterminous, below 3000 ft QFE, with a restricted area, though that excludes its stub, whilst including part of Waddington's MATZ and stub.
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 19:00
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when given a MATZ clearence am i expected to contact the tower for the ATZ
Initial Contact wil be on the zone/LARS frequency (if published) or approach (if either of the two preceeding one's aren't). The clearance you will get (pedantry aside) will be for the whole MATZ/ATZ complex - no need to speak to tower.
I asked an FI and he said he thinks it does
THINKS! Am I the only one here who finds that a little bit scary
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 19:46
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Avoid imitations
 
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ChilliMonster,

Regarding your last question. No, you're not the only one!
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Old 29th Jul 2004, 20:48
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DRJAD
If you are being pedantic then the point is NOT that you need to get permision for passing through this particular MATZ, but that there MAY be OTHER rules that mean you DO need to contact them.
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 11:33
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The procedure for MATZ penetration is published in the AIP (ENR 2-2-2-3-1. The hyperlink is here: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2020203.PDF ) * In brief, observance of a MATZ by civil aircraft is not mandatory. However, observance of any associated ATZ is. As is also mentioned in other posts on this thread, there are other good (both legal and simple good common sense) reasons why transiting traffic must speak to the MATZ controller.

Any instructor who is not aware of the requirements regarding MATZ should rectify the gap in their knowledge, pronto!

P

*In order to be able to view the AIP you must be a registered user. Registration is free.

Last edited by Pronto; 30th Jul 2004 at 11:49.
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 11:54
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Point of order regarding Scampton. Anyone who thinks that Scampton R313 is inactive at weekends needs re-educating. Reds frequently return at weekends and, when they do, will often either loop or spaghetti break to land. In either case, that's a lot of metal travelling at high speed!
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 12:21
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Methinks tis always a good idea to talk to MATZ controllers. they give a lot of useful info and if you tell them your route, they often contact any other matz along the way and pass your details for you. You then just have to change freq, say "hello", and squawk **** and your sorted.
Mind you, I have heard about how you don't need to contact them if you don't want, but if your flying 'cross a CMATZ like Lankenheath, who would'nt!? Nevermind if tis legal, tis common sense, and saves you having any mild heart attacks or strokes

FFW
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 12:52
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quote:
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I asked an FI and he said he thinks it does
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THINKS! Am I the only one here who finds that a little bit scary
Au contraire mon ami,

It once more confirms what I have said on here a few times. The vast majority of PPL instructors are very good at teaching their pupils the handlings skills.

They lack experience and knowledge to instill the basic airmanship skills required for any meaningful away from teh airport flying.

It is my conviction that there fore a lot of fresh PPLs hang their wings up in the 2 years following their skills test. Out of desillusion that the PPL syllabus did not train them to do that bit of flying which they thought it was going to bring them: Going places.

FD
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 13:20
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thats because a number of FI's are low hours fATPL holders barely out of there own basic training and using teaching as a way of hours building.
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 13:23
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Very true, FD, if you look at a freshly minted PPL he has really only demontrated he is barely safe enough to carry passengers in the local area. And even in the States where it's a lot easier to go places, I'd say that over 50% of new instructors have only done the minimum cross country times for certificate issuance. Most of them are just bumps on logs themselves.

But that is why they call it alicence to learn. Best thing for a new ppl to do is to avoid instructors for a while and fly with other more experienced pilots who are just flying around for the hell of it. Expand your horizons one step at a time, hang out at the airport and make friends. The responsibility to go places rests with the new PPL and not the instructor.....
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 14:01
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Foxmoth,

At the risk of being pedantic once more I did not comment upon whether a pilot should speak to the MATZ controlling authority when near R313, though my personal opinion is that it is well to do so, even if not absolutely forced by regulation so to do.

My post was intended to emphasize the practical point that not all MATZes are identical in their regulatory requirements.

As always, pedantry aside, I am very willing to defer to those who possess that superfluity of experience and knowledge to enable them to express valid opinions as the practicality of the various options for managing a flight in these areas. It is from such debates that I am enabled to learn.
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 14:30
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Slim,

I could, of course, not agree more with you.

The entire training culture in the UK is very much skewed towards churning out PPLs who are excellent in circuit bashing.

Some form of mentoring of newly qualified PPLs by folks be it instructors with the necessary experience or PPLs would is great but there is little opportunity to do so as schools (most clubs are schools really) do not cater for this for a number of reasons.

BBs like PPRuNe and Flyer are excellent in that they are a good forum to ask questions and Fly Outs get regularly organised by folks on these shores.

FD
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Old 30th Jul 2004, 14:49
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bose-x
thats because a number of FI's are low hours fATPL holders barely out of there own basic training
Ican see the point you are trying to make, but I would expect someone with a fAPTL to know the position regarding MATZs with certainty
 
Old 30th Jul 2004, 14:54
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kind of makes my point doesnt it???

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Old 30th Jul 2004, 15:10
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Final 3 Greens
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It certainly makes one wonder about the rigour of their aviation education efforts!
 

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