Imc
Thread Starter
Imc
Hi Guys!
Nearing the end of my PPL (well about 3/4 of the way through anyway) and thinking of doing the IMC rating due to the rubbish weather in this country. Only thing is I'm not too sure what it entails and what it entitles me to. I'm aware it's only valid in the UK but apart from that, what is the difference from an IR?
Thanks!
Nearing the end of my PPL (well about 3/4 of the way through anyway) and thinking of doing the IMC rating due to the rubbish weather in this country. Only thing is I'm not too sure what it entails and what it entitles me to. I'm aware it's only valid in the UK but apart from that, what is the difference from an IR?
Thanks!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Age: 68
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
minimum 15 hours rather than 50 hours (for single engine IR), one short exam rather than 7; cost about £2,000 rather than £9,000!
Well worth doing, but probably better to get a few hours under you belt first. I think in fact you need 25 hours P1 to apply for the rating, but not to start the training.
Well worth doing, but probably better to get a few hours under you belt first. I think in fact you need 25 hours P1 to apply for the rating, but not to start the training.
Thread Starter
Thanks, that's what I though. I can't really understand why a full IR is soooo much more expensive (well obviously it's because it's 50 hours but you know what I mean 
).
So apart from Class A airspace you can fly full IFR type stuff?
).So apart from Class A airspace you can fly full IFR type stuff?
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thats the $64million question. technically yes (no airways of course) but it comes down to currency and the quality of the instruction as well as having an aircraft that is capable of IMC flight AND navigation.
Most hired aircraft are not IMC capable, whether it is crap avionics that are not FM Immune or accurate or just that dont work at all. Also the UK generally has very low freezing levels which again most club hire aircraft are nopt capable of dealing with as they have no de-ice/anti-ice.
The quality of instruction is also very variable going from failry low hours FI's able to teach the IMC to high hours full IR instructors.
The IMC is a great rating, well worth doing. It needs constant practice at all aspects of flying IMC, this includes, sustained instrument flight, and approaches. It is very easy to get out of currency and expect to just be able to switch back to the guages when you hit IMC because you have a ticket that says you can and thats when things have the potential to go wrong.
My view personally is go out, get some experiance flying in day VFR try other new things and mature as a pilot before you try Instrument flight. (There will of course be the usual round of people telling you do aeros and tail wheel conversions instead, not my cup of tea really allthough I have done them).
It strikes me that a lot of people go into the IMC "early" after listening to talk in the bar/club of pilots "larging it up" about how clever they think they are because the can fly in cloud.
At your stage in your flying you are barely able to operate the aircraft let alone contemplate flying it with sole reference to the instruments. If the weather is so marginal you may end up in IMC then is it a good day to fly?
Enjoy your flying, look out the window and admire the view, this is one of the key things about learning to fly and when you are ready to expand the envelope then consider the IMC.
I am an Instrument rated pilot and find there is nothing like climbing above an overcast and sitting in the sunshine, but conversly there is also nothing like cruising along below watching the sun poke through in beams and lighting the landscape.
Most hired aircraft are not IMC capable, whether it is crap avionics that are not FM Immune or accurate or just that dont work at all. Also the UK generally has very low freezing levels which again most club hire aircraft are nopt capable of dealing with as they have no de-ice/anti-ice.
The quality of instruction is also very variable going from failry low hours FI's able to teach the IMC to high hours full IR instructors.
The IMC is a great rating, well worth doing. It needs constant practice at all aspects of flying IMC, this includes, sustained instrument flight, and approaches. It is very easy to get out of currency and expect to just be able to switch back to the guages when you hit IMC because you have a ticket that says you can and thats when things have the potential to go wrong.
My view personally is go out, get some experiance flying in day VFR try other new things and mature as a pilot before you try Instrument flight. (There will of course be the usual round of people telling you do aeros and tail wheel conversions instead, not my cup of tea really allthough I have done them).
It strikes me that a lot of people go into the IMC "early" after listening to talk in the bar/club of pilots "larging it up" about how clever they think they are because the can fly in cloud.
At your stage in your flying you are barely able to operate the aircraft let alone contemplate flying it with sole reference to the instruments. If the weather is so marginal you may end up in IMC then is it a good day to fly?
Enjoy your flying, look out the window and admire the view, this is one of the key things about learning to fly and when you are ready to expand the envelope then consider the IMC.
I am an Instrument rated pilot and find there is nothing like climbing above an overcast and sitting in the sunshine, but conversly there is also nothing like cruising along below watching the sun poke through in beams and lighting the landscape.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It doesn't happen all the time, but I totally agree with bose-x's comments above.
When you have your PPL and have reached that point in your flying where the basic PPL doesn't allow you to do the things you want to do, then is the time to address which additional ratings you need...
It needn't take years or even months post-PPL to come to these conclusions, but I suggest it should take "hours"
When you have your PPL and have reached that point in your flying where the basic PPL doesn't allow you to do the things you want to do, then is the time to address which additional ratings you need...
It needn't take years or even months post-PPL to come to these conclusions, but I suggest it should take "hours"
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
c-bert,
For most recreational pilots the JAA IR is not really practical unless you have a great amount of time and money to put aside for the training. Unless you have a real use for it (the need to make business trips around Europe and not be delayed so much by weather for example) then you will find it a costly indulgence. Too costly for most UK PPLs.
It isn't only the extra hours that make the IR more expensive. The exams are far more challenging and are more akin to the ATPL ones than those for the PPL.
One solution that many people use is to get an FAA IR and an N-reg aircraft to go with it. The US qualification (the exam in particular) is a much more practical proposition for most people.
If you use the forum search facility you will find a great deal of discussion of these issues and the pros and cons of the IMC qualification.
There is an organisation which promotes PPL IR flying here.
By the way - the good news is that you can fly IFR to your heart's content in the UK without going to the trouble of getting an IMC - you just do it in VMC.
For most recreational pilots the JAA IR is not really practical unless you have a great amount of time and money to put aside for the training. Unless you have a real use for it (the need to make business trips around Europe and not be delayed so much by weather for example) then you will find it a costly indulgence. Too costly for most UK PPLs.
It isn't only the extra hours that make the IR more expensive. The exams are far more challenging and are more akin to the ATPL ones than those for the PPL.
One solution that many people use is to get an FAA IR and an N-reg aircraft to go with it. The US qualification (the exam in particular) is a much more practical proposition for most people.
If you use the forum search facility you will find a great deal of discussion of these issues and the pros and cons of the IMC qualification.
There is an organisation which promotes PPL IR flying here.
By the way - the good news is that you can fly IFR to your heart's content in the UK without going to the trouble of getting an IMC - you just do it in VMC.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies guys (& girls?). One further question though on Fly Stimulators point about IFR. Am I allowed to file an IFR flight plan on just a basic PPL? I know nothing about IFR procedures or instrument approaches (nothing official at least!) so how can I fly IFR?
Or do you just mean VFR but with reference to the instruments and radio nav aids?
Just for info, my main reason for doing the IMC would be so that I can still fly on the decidedly marginal VMC days we often have here in the winter. It's frustrating leaving home in VMC and getting to the airfield only for the cloud to have thickened enough to preclude flying.
Or do you just mean VFR but with reference to the instruments and radio nav aids?
Just for info, my main reason for doing the IMC would be so that I can still fly on the decidedly marginal VMC days we often have here in the winter. It's frustrating leaving home in VMC and getting to the airfield only for the cloud to have thickened enough to preclude flying.
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
c-bert,
Somebody always chucks in the IFR vs IMC distinction in these discussions so I thought I'd just get it out of the way early for efficiency's sake!
Best to talk it through with your instructor, but in a nutshell IFR and VFR are just sets of rules to fly by. The IFR rules involve things like the levels you have to fly at for certain headings, the clearance you have to allow over the ground and so on.
If you comply with these rules you can claim to be flying IFR, even if there's not a cloud in the sky. So, even without an IMC rating you could fly IFR. What you can't do without an extra rating is to fly in IMC, which is the term that relates to the weather conditions rather than the flight rules.
In short it's a technicality which brings you no practical benefits, other than an ability to recount tales of your IFR flying in the pub afterwards.
The IMC is useful both in itself and for the extra discipline it can bring to your flying, but the above posts make good points. Give yourself a little time to get a little more experience first. Most of us have found the IMC training is hard enough work for the brain as it is without having to still be devoting mental capacity to basic flying skills at the same time.
And don't forget that most airfields that recreational flyers go to do not have any instrument approach facilities. Even with an IMC or IR your day trip for a £200 bacon roll in the rain will probably end up with you returning to your nearest large airfield which may not be where you started from or left your car!
Somebody always chucks in the IFR vs IMC distinction in these discussions so I thought I'd just get it out of the way early for efficiency's sake!
Best to talk it through with your instructor, but in a nutshell IFR and VFR are just sets of rules to fly by. The IFR rules involve things like the levels you have to fly at for certain headings, the clearance you have to allow over the ground and so on.
If you comply with these rules you can claim to be flying IFR, even if there's not a cloud in the sky. So, even without an IMC rating you could fly IFR. What you can't do without an extra rating is to fly in IMC, which is the term that relates to the weather conditions rather than the flight rules.
In short it's a technicality which brings you no practical benefits, other than an ability to recount tales of your IFR flying in the pub afterwards.
The IMC is useful both in itself and for the extra discipline it can bring to your flying, but the above posts make good points. Give yourself a little time to get a little more experience first. Most of us have found the IMC training is hard enough work for the brain as it is without having to still be devoting mental capacity to basic flying skills at the same time.
And don't forget that most airfields that recreational flyers go to do not have any instrument approach facilities. Even with an IMC or IR your day trip for a £200 bacon roll in the rain will probably end up with you returning to your nearest large airfield which may not be where you started from or left your car!
Thread Starter
Thanks. I fly from Southampton so I've got all manner of whizzbang nav aids to get confused by (and airliners to get in the way of!) although the aircraft I use doesn't...oh well, it probably is a good idea to tonk around in the sunshine for a while first.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Age: 68
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my main reason for doing the IMC would be so that I can still fly on the decidedly marginal VMC days
I use my IMC to get above cloud where I am as certain as I can be that I can go VMC on top and that the cloud base is not likely to deteriorate to a point where making an instrument approach is going to be difficult (because of the minima for IMC rated pilots). It is also very useful training for those occasions when you enter IMC inadvertantly, but even then I descent to VMC unless it is obvious that the IMC is very temporary.
Flying is more enjoyable when you can see the ground. I would not set off in 'marginal' VMC unless I was very confident that the weather is improving or it is or will very quickly become VMC at my destination.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too right, Justiciar.
I assume that c-bert wants to fly purely for fun (if he has aspirations of professional flying, I'd say bypass the IMC altogether and get a proper IR) ... and flying around in "decidely marginal VMC" is far from relaxing.
I assume that c-bert wants to fly purely for fun (if he has aspirations of professional flying, I'd say bypass the IMC altogether and get a proper IR) ... and flying around in "decidely marginal VMC" is far from relaxing.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is always worth asking these "is the IMC Rating worth doing" people what their budget is. If it is £1000/year then the "correct" answer is going to be NO; just keep renting the Cessna 150 
In most cases, this turns out to be the case, and probably this is why most IMC Ratings are lapsed. But for pilots that do the right amount of flying in the right plane, etc, it is a great privilege.
I fly IMC (IFR) as necessary/possible but do find that most flights are in fact done in VMC (above, between or below the clouds; the first two not being legal for a basic PPL). But even if one is fussy about conditions, what the IMC option gives you is flying when the weather is too marginal for a basic PPL pilot (much of the time in the UK).
Without the IMCR, I would perhaps do 1/4 of my present hours, and my currency would fall to a point where it would be sooo easy to just pack it in altogether. Not to mention all the cancelled flights, which make flying with passengers very awkward.
Re the "proper IR" as some put it, there is nothing useful about the proper IR if the destination is an airfield without an IAP (which is true for most UK GA airfields) or the icing level is below the MSA (true much of the winter) etc. In the UK, the IR may be useful over the IMCR if you have a de-iced plane with a turbo engine, but then one is going to be above the clouds with no view. The IR really comes in for foreign trips.
Incidentally if a JAA IR costs £9000, that is cheap on the scale of what it will cost over the next 10-20 years actually making use of it. For starters, one needs to get one's hands on a decent plane (which is equally true for the IMCR) and the extra cost of that will dwarf the cost of the training. For anyone who is gainfully employed, the real cost of a JAA IR will be far more than £9000, due to the time spent on the ground school.
In most cases, this turns out to be the case, and probably this is why most IMC Ratings are lapsed. But for pilots that do the right amount of flying in the right plane, etc, it is a great privilege.I fly IMC (IFR) as necessary/possible but do find that most flights are in fact done in VMC (above, between or below the clouds; the first two not being legal for a basic PPL). But even if one is fussy about conditions, what the IMC option gives you is flying when the weather is too marginal for a basic PPL pilot (much of the time in the UK).
Without the IMCR, I would perhaps do 1/4 of my present hours, and my currency would fall to a point where it would be sooo easy to just pack it in altogether. Not to mention all the cancelled flights, which make flying with passengers very awkward.
Re the "proper IR" as some put it, there is nothing useful about the proper IR if the destination is an airfield without an IAP (which is true for most UK GA airfields) or the icing level is below the MSA (true much of the winter) etc. In the UK, the IR may be useful over the IMCR if you have a de-iced plane with a turbo engine, but then one is going to be above the clouds with no view. The IR really comes in for foreign trips.
Incidentally if a JAA IR costs £9000, that is cheap on the scale of what it will cost over the next 10-20 years actually making use of it. For starters, one needs to get one's hands on a decent plane (which is equally true for the IMCR) and the extra cost of that will dwarf the cost of the training. For anyone who is gainfully employed, the real cost of a JAA IR will be far more than £9000, due to the time spent on the ground school.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to clarify, the only difference in minima between an IMC and an IR is the requirement for 1800m horizontal vizability. All other limits are ADVISORY. There is no reason an IMC holder cant do an IP to published minimums other than currency.
When I did my IMC I was taught down to minimums which stood me well for IR training.
When I did my IMC I was taught down to minimums which stood me well for IR training.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All other limits are ADVISORY
What's changed? Or have I, again, got the wrong suspects 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ceiling limits concerned are published in the AIP using phraseology that is not particularly clear. I think that the advisory nature of the ceiling minima and the mandatory nature of the 1800m minimum are pretty widely accepted.
2D
2D