Imc
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I have no idea whether twas ever thus. It matches what I was taught in the 1980s. I went through a brief period of being a believer in the ceiling limits being mandatory when I first saw the AIP section. Wise voices talked me out of that belief, and I have now returned to my previous position.
As is so often the case, a simple concept is overcomplicated by poor drafting. Something the FAA by and large manages to get right.
2D
As is so often the case, a simple concept is overcomplicated by poor drafting. Something the FAA by and large manages to get right.
2D
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Something the FAA by and large manages to get right.
I think that R was referring to past (tedious) discussions where the subject was whether the minimums for IAP for IMC holders were mandatory and absolute or advisory and therefore relative.
The FAA have circumnavigated that particular issue by allowing us lesser gods to get a meaningful internationally recognised IR.
FD
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I think that R was referring to past (tedious) discussions where the subject was whether the minimums for IAP for IMC holders were mandatory and absolute or advisory and therefore relative.
Period.
For me, now academic, but I did recall a discussion or seven about it
So 'twas ever thus?
The article of the ANO mandating aerodrome operating minima for non-PT flights was introduced in about 1992. Before that, an IR holder on a non-PT flight was not bound by any particular minima. Thus everything in the AIP was advisory. AOC-holders had minima dictated by their Ops Manual (which was undoubtedly based on the same calculations as in the AIP).
When the guidance to IMC-holders was drafted, it was done with that as a backdrop. I don't think that anyone foresaw that it would be interpreted as mandatory at some point in the future. The Schedule 8 minimum of 1 nm for t/o and ldg was always there.
I can guess at why it has been left the way it is. The (mis-)interpretation of the AIP as mandating 500/600 ft minima suits the CAA position of discouraging IMC-rating holders from tackling difficult approaches. So clarifying the AIP entry as being recommended only is unhelpful for that cause. But changing the entry to indicate that the increments are mandatory would be a substantial erosion of rights that would require consultation, time and resource. So as with so many things in aviation, we're left with the status quo. But that's just a guess.
As is so often the case, a simple concept is overcomplicated by poor drafting. Something the FAA by and large manages to get right.
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Compliance with aerodrome DA/MDA is in article 40 of the ANO; the 1800' take off minimum is in Schedule 8 of the ANO, which contains the privileges of licenses and ratings. Any restriction on IMC rated pilots would be expected in one of these two locations. The fact that the ANO is silent suggests very strongly that the 500'/600' minima are indeed only advisory.
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My thoughts, for what they are worth.
I did my IMC after 30-odd hours post PPL. I enjoy flying in IMC, but for extended periods it can be tiring, and as such, I apply a simple rule:
IMC is NOT an instrument rating. It is a "get me home on that iffy day" rating, NOT a "go flying on that iffy day rating."
Last Sunday, I Wx diverted on a trip to Ireland - even though the forecasts and reports from Ireland were good, and so no sweat over there - because it was too much like hard work to fly for an hour in IMC. I'll wait for a better day.
Having said that, I find that my flying is MUCH more precise now after doing the IMC, in terms of holding headings, speeds and altitudes - which in itself made it worthwhile.
TA
I did my IMC after 30-odd hours post PPL. I enjoy flying in IMC, but for extended periods it can be tiring, and as such, I apply a simple rule:
IMC is NOT an instrument rating. It is a "get me home on that iffy day" rating, NOT a "go flying on that iffy day rating."
Last Sunday, I Wx diverted on a trip to Ireland - even though the forecasts and reports from Ireland were good, and so no sweat over there - because it was too much like hard work to fly for an hour in IMC. I'll wait for a better day.
Having said that, I find that my flying is MUCH more precise now after doing the IMC, in terms of holding headings, speeds and altitudes - which in itself made it worthwhile.
TA
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The IMC is an instrument rating if taught correctly and is not a get you home rating. Anyone who enters into an IMC rating with the view of getting the rating as an emergency escape card on a bad day is fooling themselves.
Instrument flight requires constant practice to be current enough to use it anger. Whether it is an IMC rating or a rull IR the same skills need to be practiced.
Sustained flight in IMC is hard work. The IMC rating training tends to focus on shorter duration instrument only flight than the IR with a view to using it for getting above cloud into the cruise and back down again at the other end. I found IR training focused more on airways joins and exits, IFR RT and some sustained IMC flight but the preference always being to get on top above the weather. As an IMC pilot I needed no work on holds or procedures.
A good IMC pilot who practices regularily is just as capable of flying in sustained IMC, you develop and practice the skills and can either fly the guages or not.
Anyone who feels that they could not fly comfortably on the guages for a lenghty period of time should not be excercising the priveledges of an IMC.
Instrument flight requires constant practice to be current enough to use it anger. Whether it is an IMC rating or a rull IR the same skills need to be practiced.
Sustained flight in IMC is hard work. The IMC rating training tends to focus on shorter duration instrument only flight than the IR with a view to using it for getting above cloud into the cruise and back down again at the other end. I found IR training focused more on airways joins and exits, IFR RT and some sustained IMC flight but the preference always being to get on top above the weather. As an IMC pilot I needed no work on holds or procedures.
A good IMC pilot who practices regularily is just as capable of flying in sustained IMC, you develop and practice the skills and can either fly the guages or not.
Anyone who feels that they could not fly comfortably on the guages for a lenghty period of time should not be excercising the priveledges of an IMC.
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I'm really not sure I agree with that.
Yes, I practice instrument approaches and IMC flying so that I am not "out of practice". When I use it "in anger", I do so in the knowledge that I can fly on the gauges, and am within the limits of my ability. But my point remains - flying as the only pilot into IMC conditions is a lot harder than flying in VMC, and I still say that the IMC is a "get you home" rating. I don't know of any IMC rated pilots who would actually want to fly on a day when they are going straight into IMC for the duration anyway. I fly for my own enjoyment - professional pilots with IRs get paid to go up in the cr@p, and then they do it in pairs.....
I would say anyone who takes the IMC thinking it gives them the same, but slightly watered down, priviledges as a full IR is fooling themselves personally.
TA
Yes, I practice instrument approaches and IMC flying so that I am not "out of practice". When I use it "in anger", I do so in the knowledge that I can fly on the gauges, and am within the limits of my ability. But my point remains - flying as the only pilot into IMC conditions is a lot harder than flying in VMC, and I still say that the IMC is a "get you home" rating. I don't know of any IMC rated pilots who would actually want to fly on a day when they are going straight into IMC for the duration anyway. I fly for my own enjoyment - professional pilots with IRs get paid to go up in the cr@p, and then they do it in pairs.....
I would say anyone who takes the IMC thinking it gives them the same, but slightly watered down, priviledges as a full IR is fooling themselves personally.
TA
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The IMC rating is NOT and never will be an instrument rating. It is a valuable addition to the ppl in that it gives a very sound introduction to the use of instuments and radio aids, but as Twin Aisle quite rightly states it is a 'get out of jail card' for those occasions when wx conditions deteriorate and make things difficult.
The world is unfortunately full of idiots with a ppl/imc who think they are airline pilots. They are a danger to themselves and everyone else.
Have you ever wondered why it is not recognised outside the UK?
Remember the ppl/imc that died trying to do an ILS approach into Le Touquet?
If you wanna fly with the big boys do an I/R....otherwise stick to nice sunny days.
rabbs
The world is unfortunately full of idiots with a ppl/imc who think they are airline pilots. They are a danger to themselves and everyone else.
Have you ever wondered why it is not recognised outside the UK?
Remember the ppl/imc that died trying to do an ILS approach into Le Touquet?
If you wanna fly with the big boys do an I/R....otherwise stick to nice sunny days.
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If an IMC is well taught, and then well practiced - it is an incredibly good addition to the PPL. It isn't an IR, so shouldn't be used as an IR. I have an IMC and use it often - either for getting on top of cloud, or getting the last 15 miles home on a cr@ppy day. I wouldn't drem of setting off on a day like that though, knowing that it was going to be IMC all of the way. That kind of flying is for people who REALLY need to be somewhere. For those people - get an IR. Personally, I have a company car with fuel included. It may take me a bit longer, but at least I will arrive fresh (ish).
Last edited by troddenmasses; 28th Jul 2004 at 16:38.
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I think that your world being full of idiot PPL's with an IMC is nowhere near the world that the rest of us live in. In fact I think your assessment of PPL/IMC holders is pretty offensive!
My point was the the IMC is not a get out of jail free card, that instrument flight requires skill and practice. So I say again anyone who thinks that getting an IMC for this reason is seriously fooling themselves.
As I recall there have been very few incidents of IMC PPL's crashing and burning but I am happy to be corrected nothwithstanding your LFAT incident. I wonder in the case of the LFAT incident was the IMC holder actually current at IMC flight or was he just trying his get out of jail card???
But to add perspective while doing my IR training I was quoted a number of IR holder incidents of the same ilk.
It does not matter which piece of paper you have, if you are not current then it is a waste of time.
My point was the the IMC is not a get out of jail free card, that instrument flight requires skill and practice. So I say again anyone who thinks that getting an IMC for this reason is seriously fooling themselves.
As I recall there have been very few incidents of IMC PPL's crashing and burning but I am happy to be corrected nothwithstanding your LFAT incident. I wonder in the case of the LFAT incident was the IMC holder actually current at IMC flight or was he just trying his get out of jail card???
But to add perspective while doing my IR training I was quoted a number of IR holder incidents of the same ilk.
It does not matter which piece of paper you have, if you are not current then it is a waste of time.
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Gotta agree with Skyrabbit on this, and with TM.
As for
Well - his IMC rating was not valid at LFAT - whether he was current or not.
As I say - I practice IMC flying - a lot - but I still would never take to the skies to fly end-to-end IMC. Like TM, I would rather drive it. As Rabbit said, if you want to fly with the big boys, get an IR.
TA
As for
I wonder in the case of the LFAT incident was the IMC holder actually current at IMC flight or was he just trying his get out of jail card???
As I say - I practice IMC flying - a lot - but I still would never take to the skies to fly end-to-end IMC. Like TM, I would rather drive it. As Rabbit said, if you want to fly with the big boys, get an IR.
TA
Last edited by TwinAisle; 29th Jul 2004 at 09:45.
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I wasn't questioning whether the IMC was valid at LFAT as it clearly was not. I was asking about currency.
I am however very flattered to be considered one of the "big boys" even cruising around in my 152........
I am however very flattered to be considered one of the "big boys" even cruising around in my 152........
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I find myself agreeing with SkyRabbit, Twin Aisle and Trodden masses here.
Bose-x I understand your viewpoint but am afraid i can not concur with you.
Although we are unable to ask people under what license they are flying it becomes blatantly obvious when conditions deteriorate who is flying under an IMC rating and who is on an IR rating, the lack of confidence can become quite apparent. That is not to say that those flying with an IMC lack skills , far from it they are pilots who have committed time and expense to their hobby,but that is what it is to the majority of them simply a hobby. Those with IR ratings in the main have them as they wish to or either already do so fly commercially.
I see what you say about practice and experience and there will always be those who buck the trend, but the IMC rating was never designed as anything other than a " get me out of this" rating ideally suited to the British Climate and the tendency for the weather to rapidly change
Bose-x I understand your viewpoint but am afraid i can not concur with you.
Although we are unable to ask people under what license they are flying it becomes blatantly obvious when conditions deteriorate who is flying under an IMC rating and who is on an IR rating, the lack of confidence can become quite apparent. That is not to say that those flying with an IMC lack skills , far from it they are pilots who have committed time and expense to their hobby,but that is what it is to the majority of them simply a hobby. Those with IR ratings in the main have them as they wish to or either already do so fly commercially.
I see what you say about practice and experience and there will always be those who buck the trend, but the IMC rating was never designed as anything other than a " get me out of this" rating ideally suited to the British Climate and the tendency for the weather to rapidly change
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Trust me there is little extra in an IR that is not in an IMC
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1. Proper instruction according to a mandatory syllabus by Instrument Rated instructors
2. Appreciation of weather related issues.
3. Appreciation of the IFR system.
etc etc.
Until you do an IR you don't know what you have missed by doing just an IMC.
True, as Bose X says there are some competent IMC PPLs around who use the rating for more than a get out of jail card. They are however a miniscule fraction of the total of people with an IMC.
It is however a bit unfair to make out everyone with an IMC rating out to be a cowboy ready to fly beyond the limits of their abilities and rating. The lack of IMC related accidents by IMC rated folks proves that in my opinion.
FD
2. Appreciation of weather related issues.
3. Appreciation of the IFR system.
etc etc.
Until you do an IR you don't know what you have missed by doing just an IMC.
True, as Bose X says there are some competent IMC PPLs around who use the rating for more than a get out of jail card. They are however a miniscule fraction of the total of people with an IMC.
It is however a bit unfair to make out everyone with an IMC rating out to be a cowboy ready to fly beyond the limits of their abilities and rating. The lack of IMC related accidents by IMC rated folks proves that in my opinion.
FD