Flying to Mull

[DRJAD]

EGCJFlyer,

I'd echo Whirlybird's and Genghis's comments ref. flight planning. You're obviously doing your calculations carefully, and taking it seriously, but there cannot be too much care taken - as you've said.

I know it seems a logical impossibility to plan for the unexpected, but as an example, you've planned W&B, you've calculated fuel burn, you've looked at alternates. You must also plan for a vertical profile which does not match your estimates; there might be a lot more climbing, etc., for example, than you want - owing to weather or other factors. Allow, also, a margin for the aircraft weight to have increased slightly since the last weighing.

I also fly from Sherburn, and I know the Warriors (but, with five of them, I'm not sure which you are going for, though the probability is one of the ex-CSE aircraft).

So, plan for the not quite expected. Especially take seriously the impact of fatigue (decision-making fatigue, as Whirly has mentioned).

Above all, and I'm sure you're going to do this, talk it all through with one of the instructors first.

(I'd be looking (if I have four up) to book the Archer for a trip like that - but then, I'm fairly heavy!)

[TonyR]

EGCJFlyer; - 70 HOURS

PPRuNe Radar; Probibly a few more ??

I dont think any PPL with so little experience should go there without a more experienced pilot or instructor with him.

IMOP, EGCJFlyer does not even have enough experience to know why he should not attempt this flight.

But he will probobly get away with it and tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

Tony

PS. When you have helped drag four people out of a PA28 161 that has just ripped it's wings off after a 600 M ground run, then you may look at things differently.

I would be the first to encourage you to expand your experience but it appeared to me that your mind was made up no matter what any one said.

[Fat, Dumb & Happy]

So that leaves me with 182lbs (83kgs) for fuel which in my calculations is 115 litres (25 imp. gallons) - 8 gallons / hour burn give me an endurance of c. 3 hours

Maybe it's pedantry, but I never count reserve fuel in endurance calculations - I'd have said that 25 galls gives you an endurance of 2 hours, with a 1 hour reserve.

Awaiting more details of winds on the day, assume a flight time to Prestwick (for fuel) from LBA at 100knts/hour 1hr 25 mins mins point to point + 20 mins on ground at LBA + 25 mins approach at Prestwick gives a total of 2hrs 10 mins with 50 mins reserve

All sounds a bit marginal - 100kts groundspeed could well be optimistic. If you're expecting to use controlled airspace have you allowed for any possible reroutings that might be necessary?

As another Scottish-based Warrior-flyer I'd do it slightly differently. Personally I'd go to Oban, and stay somewhere nice like Lerags House (much recommended by various friends of mine, very aviation friendly I understand). You then have the option to assess the options (esp. weather, which will be like nothing you've seen!) locally before setting off for Mull, ideally in two trips. Getting in can be just as challenging as getting out!

[PPRuNe Radar]

Sorry TonyR ... I may have misinterpreted your 'not taking one in to Mull' with 4 up as a generic brushing of such people as fools.

If that's the case then I apologise and agree that a low hours pilot should get more experience first, perhaps even a specific check out with an instructor to ensure that their short field techniques and performance calculations are totally up to scratch

My first trip in to Mull (in the Warrior with four up at least) was with about 175hrs.

Credit to EGCJFlyer for asking the questions though. I think he is thinking more about the issues than you give him credit for

[TonyR]

Perhaps my choice of words was out of order and as such I would apologise to EGCJFlyer, but I felt he was hopeing we would all tell him to go, perhaps when he really knew this may not be the best thing.

I sometimes wonder why pilots do not sit down with a CFI and discuss such flights.

Are some CFIs not interested?

This forum is a great place for advice, but if I was his CFI I would load the a/c to max and let him try it on a long r/w.

Also those of us who live in the North west know about strong winds sometimes comming without warning and catching the best out.

Stay safe

Tony

[nosewheelfirst]

I fly a cherokee from Scotland and have been into Mull with 3 people onboard in good wx. I am also a low hours PPL.

From what I have seen EGCJFlyer has already done good planning and has good ideas of what his limitations are and that of the aircraft.

Some of the replies are a good indication on why there are so many low hour PPL's sticking to the Local Flying Area of their home base. He has done the planning and the calculations and has plans for if the wx is marginal.

I look forward to sharing the skies up here with somebody willing to stretch their wings and go further. They will also have hours worth 5 times as much as doing local flights.

Now about the weather...

[Skinny Runt]

Bo11ocks !! I just spent 20 minutes typing a long reply .. and the damn site lost it ... aaargh..... and i can't take that long as I'm up for an early shift at 5.30 ....

In summary.

I too got my PPL around 45 hrs (well done)
Strangely I got checked out on grass .. after 70hrs... at Gigha .. in a Warrior .. the week before I did something similar to what you intend... and you'll never guess what happened ?

I had a superb time.

I headed off to a 700m grass strip in the Aberdeen zone. I was quite nervous, as this was my first overnight landaway and I was more worried about the weather closing in and stopping me getting back to work ....... foolish notion .... I got better

Anyway, over the next 3 days I flew 8 pals all around the Banffshire area, including 3 kids who had never ever flown before, and I made their days !!

Right I really need to get to my bed.............

PS

I also learnt about aborted take-offs. Into sun I failed to spot/sense that the parking brake was on one notch. On grass it was less noticeable (imagine not noticing that on tarmac), but when I got to 47 kts, and no more, I knew something was wrong and aborted in plenty of time.

I now have a rule of thumb, learned in Canada on a mountain flying course, if you ain't at 70% of takeoff speed halfway down the runway ... abort. It is a good discipline to get into the habit of picking an abort point, and practice making the decision in your mind.

Just as I would recommend taking some time and trouble to note weights, winds and actually measure your take-off runs, and then compare them to the book figures. Good exercise, good experience and especially if it is one particular plane you fly, a good way to learn about your machine.

Was I foolish ? I don't think so. I felt it was within my capabilities. Like you, I planned and planned. I had alternates. I discussed it with an instructor beforehand.

And I did 7 hrs of 'new experience' flying - even landed at Feshiebridge on the way home !

Now. What about lifejackets ? If you are planning on island hopping I would recommend them.

I wouldn't recommend Gigha with 3 or 4 people.

I would exercise caution at Plockton. There are some VERY tall trees on the approach to 20/climbout to 02 - be warned they look significantly more than 50 ft on climbout, so I wouldn't be happy heavy unless there was a pretty strong northerly, and then you have the turbulence problems!!

Leeds to Prestwick ... 1h30min ?
Prestwick to Oban ... 40 min ?
Prestwick to Mull 50 min ?

2 legs in one day. Seems quite a nice sensible plan if you ask me.

Without seeming to scorn the cautious advice, I agree with the sentiments that we should all be encouraged/challenged to spread our wings and get out of our local flying areas. I have seen clubs where the CFI seems to think the safest way to fly is to stay on the ground. I think they are in the wrong job.

We aim to minimise the risks, but flying by its very nature is a challenge - that's why we do it - isn't it ?

Sure it is foolish to boldly go .. but not if you have a well thought out plan ... a bit of practice ... and clear alternative options.

[jayemm]

I did that trip 4 weeks ago

EGCJFlyer,

I'm a 250 hrs PPL who did the Islay, North Connell (Oban), Glenforsa trip about 4 weeks ago, in a 160hp Warrior.

I flew up from Blackbushe, and then based myself at Islay, simply because I have friends who run the best distillery on the Island there (PM me if you're interested).

Islay is closed, strictly, on Sats (after 1030 local) and Sundays. I made prior arrangements, and had private sole use of the airfield for the whole weekend; it was wonderful. However, you will probably need to land once before it closes to pay the fees and make the arrangements. Very friendly and helpful people both at the airfield and on the island. A very different world from the Berks that I'm familiar with! Islay is a substantial Island with a one or two hours flying to be had going around it.

I flew up Jura, across to Colonsay (tried to see the famous Whirpool at the head of the straights, but couldn't find it), to Iona and then to Mull and Glenforsa, with 3-up. I planned this so that fuel was low (well within safety limits) for Glenforsa (followed by a full refuel at Oban). Although the grass was wet, the field is much smoother than Rochester or Compton Abbas, and the ground (at that time) was firm. I'd definitely ring ahead to get the field conditions, wind being the most important. I was told I was lucky that day because all the three windsocks were pointing in the same direction! Even when quite calm, the wind can mess you about on the approach, so take care.

Then to Oban for fuel and shopping, then back to Islay alongside the famous "Paps of Jura" during a beautiful sunset over the Atlantic.

I enjoyed the whole trip and want to do it again, but I'd say, do all the calculations, include all the contingency factors and believe what the numbers say.

Based on my experience, my advice would be this:

VFR flying is a dream around the Islands because it's very easy to identify where you are. It's the weather that can create the stress, and if you've been flying for several hours this can be risky. The local weather can change very quickly. I took off from Islay one morning in clear skies, and had to turn back from the Mull of Kintyre because of low cloud and sea fog. So plan alternates, and be prepared to turn back, because it's not worth pushing on when you're in amongst 2000ft to 3000ft mountains, which is what most of the islands are really.

You'll have a memorable time, get your pax to take loads of photos and tell us how it went. (I've got a photo of Glenforsa on right base if you want to PM me)

[boomerangben]

EGCJ flyer,

I'm not a fixed wing pilot, but can I suggest that you book a trip with an instructor to get some practice some short field stuff at MATW? Having said that, it sounds as if you are the sort of person who would have worked that one out for yourself. Your idea to ferry your pax in from Oban is a good one.

I can see that some of the posts here could be seen as being negative, but I am sure that the posters dont intend to be. What they are trying to do is impress the importance of airmanship on you and that is no bad thing. You have to go out there and try these things for yourself, but make sure that you are properly prepared (remember the 6 Ps). I personnally wish I had been more adventurous when I was hour building (from Sherburn as it happens).

I think the weather will be the main player in your trip. The weather in Yorkshire is usually very different from Scotland. In fact the weather can change dramatically from one part of the West Coast to another. So far the Scottish summer has been notable by its absence. If I was you, plan the Mull trip, but have a plan b ready if the West Coast is wxed out. Above all enjoy yourself and fly safe.

[EGCJFlyer]

Dear all, thanks so much for all your posts - more than I ever anticipated I'd get. Now to reply to you all that took the time to offer your time and advice to me.......

Genghis/TonyR - never took anything personally if that's what you thought. I appreciate your comments. My only question to you both is this - what's the point in an aircraft having limits if you can't use them?? I assume the Piper and all other aircraft manufacturers allow some slack in their numbers and quote the worst case. I will use those worst case figures and never exceed them, as was visible in my numbers that I quoted to you...

TonyR - as for being a fool - I thought that a little unfair given that I fully intend discussing this with an instructor, have spent nummerous hours planning all the detail and last of all posted on this website for further advice!! Mark of a fool to me is someone who wouldn't adequately plan, not discuss with anyone and certainly not bother seeking advice from th aviation community! Last thing Tony, I'd be the last person to knock anyone's advice, please don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me, I have altered some plans based on your suggestion and once again, if I was going to do it without listening to people, I'd never have posted in the first place.

Whirlybird - Comments on safety are taken fully onboard. Whilst I appreciate that a lot of low hour PPLs are indeed over confident, I am the last person to through myself into something I wasn't capable of. Whilst I want to have a good time flying, I also would like to see the remaining 50+ years of my life (29 by the way!)

DRJAD - if you are around Sherburn in the next few weeks, wouldn't mind meeting you for a beer and a chat?? pm me if this is ok with you??

Fat, Dumb & Happy - if you'd read my earlier posts, you'd have seen that I am going to Oban and doing two trips to Mull to ferry my pax. and the same on my return.

Nosewheelfirst - absolutely agree with you - if I spend anymore time (as I've done for the last year or so) doing flights in the local area, I am soon going to get bored and pack in flying as it offers no more challenges!

Skinny Runt - would love to chat with you a bit more, as you seem to have info re. local area. Can you pm me please?

All - once again, thanks for your comments. I have found this most useful in determining what, when and how I do it. Please, if you have anymore, through it my way. And if you're ever planning a trip to Sherburn, let me know and have a beer or two at the bar!!

Thanks very much.

[TonyR]

EGCJFlyer

If you pay a visit to Ireland next, I'll buy the beer.

Do get on as many long trips as you can and try to get some flights with other pilots.

I took a pilot with me to Plymouth today from Belfast, he has 200 hours and had never been across the Irish sea, now I think he will be hard to keep local.

When are you going to Glenforsa?

Tony

[Whirlybird]

EGCJFlyer,

Enjoy the scenery and free jammy dodgers at Oban, and say hi to Paul for me...remind him of the two women in the C152 who based themselves there for three days last summer. Also take his advice on wx etc; he's a good guy and he knows the area. The approach to one of the runways at Oban (can't remember numbers) involves turning just before the cliff/hill and is quite fun, and a favourite spectator sport at Oban is watching and criticising everyone's landings, all in fun of course. Nice place. Even if you don't manage to get any further, you'll have a good time there; I guarantee it. Incidentally, lots of people don't even get there - lots of 3000+ ft mountains to cross first, so don't feel bad if you don't make it...but I hope you do as it's a fabulous place and one of my favourite airfields.

Finally, to you and several others...I don't think anyone is trying to put you off, or get you to stay in the local area. Of course you need to push yourself a bit. But "a bit" are the operative words, IMHO. Flying to the Highlands, taking three passengers for a trip, landing at a short strip - all these are good things to do and good ways to stretch yourself. I just personally feel that doing ALL OF THEM AT ONCE so early on is too much. I think that's what's setting off warning signals in the bit of my brain that...well, that controls warning signals. The fact that nosewheelfirst and Slinny Runt can do it safely doesn't mean you can; we're all different. I'm not talking about aircraft handling ability or weather here; I'm talking about those rather nebulous human factors that no-one really knows about - the stuff you find out for yourself with experience. I've learned more about myself over the last few years than I have about aircraft handling....and it's important to do that You haven't had time to do that yet. So if you're going to go - and I think you are - please bear all this in mind, OK?

This is all said with the best of intentions. I too was once a very new PPL who gave myself lots of challenges, and with hindsight, I think I did too much too soon. A more experienced pilot told me so at the time, and I didn't listen. I survived to tell the tale...but I might not have done. And doing it all more slowly, over another year or so would have done no harm. That's why I'm saying all this, and I think most of the apparently negative replies you've been getting are saying the same kind of thing.

[Daysleeper]

I assume the Piper and all other aircraft manufacturers allow some slack in their numbers and quote the worst case

Figures from manufacturers are used to sell aircraft. They are usually unfactored and produced by test pilots. By that I mean a genius has gone out and flown the pants of a brand new aeroplane to land/take off in just that distance. That is why we add safety factors (there used to be a good pink AIC about this). In a knackered old crate with an inexperianced pilot you will struggle to even get to the factored figures.

Still if you do decide to ignore that, dont try to climb over the ridge at Mull, I did in 1996 when I had 100 hours total. In the club C150 when I took a mate there for lunch. I absolutely sh*t myself and we cleared the saddle between the hills by about 100 feet if that. Should have made the turn back out over the bay and gone round the hill.
Nice luch though.


Other advice, life jackets, ELT. Raft. GPS good weather an watch out for the wind. Even a clear day can be fierce windy and that generates huge rotor and downdraught.

Lot of good advice on this thread, dont write us all off as a bunch of old farts trying to prevent you having fun we all have your best interest at heart.

[Deeko01]

Bro,

Your planning looks good for this trip, fingers crossed the weather will be good, see you at Oban on the 11th hopefuly in my hired C172!!!

Deeko

[Jobby Wheecher]

Imagine if those fools The Wright Brothers had posted on this forum ....

"we're thinking about building a grand flying machine that will get us (and our pals) off the ground and fly us over the sea ....... to Mull "

Do you think they'd have been told not to do it cos' it's too risky ....... ?

[Genghis the Engineer]

So far as I can see, nobody's done that. Virtually all of these posts have been something like "it's risky, and you really should think about ____, but if you get it right, you'll have a great time", which is not quite the same thing.

G

[Jobby Wheecher]

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

[MichaelJP59]

Imagine if those fools The Wright Brothers had posted on this forum ...."we're thinking about building a grand flying machine that will get us (and our pals) off the ground and fly us over the sea ....... to Mull "

Ah, but those Wright Brothers are a good example, they were most meticulous and careful, and worked their way slowly and carefully towards their objective.

EGCJFlyer, good luck and I look forward to the trip report, it sounds like exactly the sort of thing I'd like to do when (and if!) I get my PPL.

On a related topic, do aero engines generally develop their quoted horsepower and are they tested for it? Just that I've quite a bit of experience running cars on a dynamometer and they rarely reach their quoted power figures.

- Michael

[EGCJFlyer]

Dear all, have taken your advice and decided to have a great time on Mull with two mates instead of three... so no longer planning to go four up! Will let you all know the outcome of the weekend as I'm sure you'll all be exoecting a full low-down of the weekend.

Thanks.

Ps. See you there bro!

[Whirlybird]

EGCJFlyer,

Good decision, IMHO. The warning signals in my brain have turned themselves off. Have a fantastic time, and tell us about it when you get back.

On our trip, we flew over Mull but didn't land, for all sorts of reasons. I'd love to hear what it's like.

Have fun!