PA28 v DR400
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PA28 v DR400
My group has recently decided to sell it's existing mount, and buy something newer.
Some in the group seem to prefer a PA28, but others (including myself) would prefer a DR400. Eother way, it must be a 180hp basic type.
Can anyone help with pro's and con's of a DR400 over a PA28. I prefer the DR400 because the visability is so much better, it has a stick rather than yoke, and I don't like the idea of only one door (I often fly across the channel, and the thought of everyone trying to scramble out of one door sends a shiver down my spine)
Any help appreciated.
Tango.
Some in the group seem to prefer a PA28, but others (including myself) would prefer a DR400. Eother way, it must be a 180hp basic type.
Can anyone help with pro's and con's of a DR400 over a PA28. I prefer the DR400 because the visability is so much better, it has a stick rather than yoke, and I don't like the idea of only one door (I often fly across the channel, and the thought of everyone trying to scramble out of one door sends a shiver down my spine)
Any help appreciated.
Tango.
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TO,
I don't think it is you that needs convincing but your syndicate mates.
The DR 400 has better visibility, goes faster for the same HP and fuel burn, easier access through that sliding canopy, more space, better load capacity, crisper handling etc etc etc.
2 Drawbacks; one it is supported by Robin who can be a bit patchy at times and secondly you can not stick an 'N' on the side and get an FAA IR to fly IFR in Europe.
I used to have a DR400 and never had anyone who had flown any of the usual light GA stuff that was not more impressed with it than their AA5s, 172, cherokees etc
So maybe let them have a go in one and let that do the hard sell for you
FD
I don't think it is you that needs convincing but your syndicate mates.
The DR 400 has better visibility, goes faster for the same HP and fuel burn, easier access through that sliding canopy, more space, better load capacity, crisper handling etc etc etc.
2 Drawbacks; one it is supported by Robin who can be a bit patchy at times and secondly you can not stick an 'N' on the side and get an FAA IR to fly IFR in Europe.
I used to have a DR400 and never had anyone who had flown any of the usual light GA stuff that was not more impressed with it than their AA5s, 172, cherokees etc
So maybe let them have a go in one and let that do the hard sell for you
FD
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Can only echo FD's comments. The Robin is much nicer, (don't forget it's wood and likes hangars much more than being left outside).
FD
Why can't you stick an N on the side, they fly them in the States don't they?
Owen
FD
Why can't you stick an N on the side, they fly them in the States don't they?
Owen
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From a handling POV, the DR400 wins every time.
From a sheer practicality POV, I'd take an Archer.
If the single door is a show stopper for you, then don't consider one at all, since you'll never feel comfortable and won't enjoy flying it across the Channel.
From a sheer practicality POV, I'd take an Archer.
If the single door is a show stopper for you, then don't consider one at all, since you'll never feel comfortable and won't enjoy flying it across the Channel.
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Parts availability has been mentioned above. Surely you are less likely to have your boat waiting in the shop for parts to arrive with e.g. a Piper, which produces more aircraft, than a Robin?
A Maule would be a better choice naturellement
A Maule would be a better choice naturellement
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Some in the group seem to prefer a PA28, but others (including myself) would prefer a DR400. Eother way, it must be a 180hp basic type.
Plus points for the DR400 are handling, visibility (especially compared to an Archer 3 - the windscreen is like a letterbox slot), speed, rate of climb, and load carrying ability. Other benefits are easy access through the sliding canopy, sticks rather than yokes, useful cubby holes for storing maps, easy-to-repair wooden construction, and easy maintenance at just about any French airfield if you go touring.
On the downside, people complain about spare parts availability, the nosewheel is prone to shimmy and sometimes has problems whereby the steering doesn't re-engage properly on landing (in flight the nosewheel disengages from the steering mechanism, and does not turn when you apply rudder), the cabin is a bit cramped for 4, they don't all have external baggage doors, hangarage is almost essential, the wings sometimes fall off (it's only happened a couple of times, but there are various ADs on wing spar inspections), the seats get wet if you get in while it's raining, and competent maintenance in the UK is probably easier to find for the Piper.
On balance, I'd go for the DR400 every time. An alternative which is much cheaper would be a 180hp DR300, which has a slightly more dated interior but nicer handling.
A point worth knowing is that you can re-engine DR400s (in France at least - I guess the same applies in the UK), so you can buy a cheap tired 120hp ex flying school trainer, tidy up the inside, re-cover it, and put in a new 160 or 180hp engine, and save yourself a fair sum.
Jet Blast Rat
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Have you seen the payload restrictions of an Archer? I was flying to Cherbourg the other day, 3 up, only could have 38 gallons of fuel. If you need the speed, the Robin has more (bit of an odd cockpit, but seems OK for those used to it) but if not the only really practical PA-28 is a 161 (or a 201R of course!). The Robin is nicer to fly, even if it doesn't have the handling of the 200. Stick would decide for me though!
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I can't say there is much difference in handling between the 300 and 400 series. The DR253 is a bit more pnderous but still a delight to fly. The lower sill on the 400 series is nicer and the sliding canopy makes getting in and out a lot easier than the bat doors.
Pretty sure you can re-engine the DRs (now even with a Thielert) but what you have to bear in mind is that most of the smaller engined ones will only have the main tank in the fuselage which is not so much of an issue with the lower fuel burn associated with the smaller engines but more so if you start using 30-35 lts per hour with the 160/180s.
The smaller ones also do not have a bagage door.
In the cruise there is very little between the smallest (108) and biggest (180) engine, the main difference is the acceleration on grass, climb performance and load capacity.
Interestingly enough the DR500 with the 200hp engine and VP prop does not perform any better than the 400 with the 180 fixed pitch prop. The 500 is a few inches wider though.
Everyone fallen asleep yet?
FD
Pretty sure you can re-engine the DRs (now even with a Thielert) but what you have to bear in mind is that most of the smaller engined ones will only have the main tank in the fuselage which is not so much of an issue with the lower fuel burn associated with the smaller engines but more so if you start using 30-35 lts per hour with the 160/180s.
The smaller ones also do not have a bagage door.
In the cruise there is very little between the smallest (108) and biggest (180) engine, the main difference is the acceleration on grass, climb performance and load capacity.
Interestingly enough the DR500 with the 200hp engine and VP prop does not perform any better than the 400 with the 180 fixed pitch prop. The 500 is a few inches wider though.
Everyone fallen asleep yet?
FD
"Trust Me"
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Gotta be a DR400!!!
Four up, full fuel, 60kgs of luggage, 130kt cruise, 4-5 hour range and short field capability with practice and not so lightly loaded...
A totally biased DOC.400
Four up, full fuel, 60kgs of luggage, 130kt cruise, 4-5 hour range and short field capability with practice and not so lightly loaded...
A totally biased DOC.400
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I don't understand !
The Robin will move more load further , faster out of a smaller strip for the same fuel burn per hour.
Why do you ever think that a PA28 is a contestant ?
Why do you ever think that a PA28 is a contestant ?
"Trust Me"
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"It's tin , DR400s like hangars."
True.
"Getting bits is easier for PA28s."
True too!! And don't I know it!
"Ford vs Citroen."
I'd like to think more Ford v. Bugatti or Venturi or other rare French car manufacturer......if you've ever visited the factory at Dijon, it is more akin to assembly of Morgan cars or Aston Martin, and I've been to them all. Attention to detail is stunning.
DOC
True.
"Getting bits is easier for PA28s."
True too!! And don't I know it!
"Ford vs Citroen."
I'd like to think more Ford v. Bugatti or Venturi or other rare French car manufacturer......if you've ever visited the factory at Dijon, it is more akin to assembly of Morgan cars or Aston Martin, and I've been to them all. Attention to detail is stunning.
DOC
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It depends what you want.
If you want to be buying something that someone has lovingly built, designed for speed and agility and looks stylish then buy a Robin.
If you want to buy a airborne Cortina that's up to you but don't blame us when you look enviously at the smooth guy as he pulls up at the clubhouse in his DR400.
DR400 = Wiener Schnitzel
PA28 = McDonalds burger patty
DR400 = Gin & Tonic
PA28 = Pernod and lucozade
DR400 = Cuban Havana
PA28 = Benson and Hedges
DR400 = Dom Perignon Brut
PA28 = Babycham
DR400 = Portugal FC
PA28 = England FC
DR400 = Goodwood
PA28 = Panshanger
DR400 = Eton
PA28 = Grange Hill
DR400 = Princess Stephanie
PA28 = Bet Lynch
Need I go further?
If you want to be buying something that someone has lovingly built, designed for speed and agility and looks stylish then buy a Robin.
If you want to buy a airborne Cortina that's up to you but don't blame us when you look enviously at the smooth guy as he pulls up at the clubhouse in his DR400.
DR400 = Wiener Schnitzel
PA28 = McDonalds burger patty
DR400 = Gin & Tonic
PA28 = Pernod and lucozade
DR400 = Cuban Havana
PA28 = Benson and Hedges
DR400 = Dom Perignon Brut
PA28 = Babycham
DR400 = Portugal FC
PA28 = England FC
DR400 = Goodwood
PA28 = Panshanger
DR400 = Eton
PA28 = Grange Hill
DR400 = Princess Stephanie
PA28 = Bet Lynch
Need I go further?
Like yer work Monocock!!!Join Date: Nov 1999
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Its got to be the DR400, so much nicer to fly, faster, roomier, better viz, easier to get in and out, better strip aircraft.
The only disadvantage I can really see is if you want to keep the aircraft outside. A DR400 really needs a hangar. Ive flown DR400s a lot and various models of PA-28 quite a bit less, but the DR400 wins hands down. Cant say about spares and maintenance as I only flew Club aircraft. As it was in France, there never seemed to be a problem with spare parts. Another interesting comparison was a trip to the PFA rally up from Toulouse. I was in a DR400 160hp fixed pitch prop, my friends in a TB-10 180hp, constant speed prop. Both aircraft two up. The DR400 got off the ground quicker, cruised faster and landed shorter!
The only disadvantage I can really see is if you want to keep the aircraft outside. A DR400 really needs a hangar. Ive flown DR400s a lot and various models of PA-28 quite a bit less, but the DR400 wins hands down. Cant say about spares and maintenance as I only flew Club aircraft. As it was in France, there never seemed to be a problem with spare parts. Another interesting comparison was a trip to the PFA rally up from Toulouse. I was in a DR400 160hp fixed pitch prop, my friends in a TB-10 180hp, constant speed prop. Both aircraft two up. The DR400 got off the ground quicker, cruised faster and landed shorter!
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A hangar is £4000/year plus VAT where I am 
A TB10, new for new, is probably not a good comparison because the TB family production is coming to an end, and a TB10 has been very expensive for some years now. But TB build quality is noticeably better than the build quality of any other new GA aircraft I have recently seen and in that I include Diamond and Cirrus.
A TB10, new for new, is probably not a good comparison because the TB family production is coming to an end, and a TB10 has been very expensive for some years now. But TB build quality is noticeably better than the build quality of any other new GA aircraft I have recently seen and in that I include Diamond and Cirrus.
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My choice would also be a DR400 if it was hangared, much nicer to fly and better performance.
One thing to watch. When getting in you need to support your weight as you lower yourself into the seat. The natural place to put your hand is on the seat back - dont!
I had just landed and parked, reached up and behind me to unlatch the canopy when there was a loud bang and the seat back collapsed. I know I am a fat b@$t@rd but not that fat. It was a fatigue crack of the seat frame that left me flat on my back, not a good idea had it happened a few minutes earlier.
Mike
One thing to watch. When getting in you need to support your weight as you lower yourself into the seat. The natural place to put your hand is on the seat back - dont!
I had just landed and parked, reached up and behind me to unlatch the canopy when there was a loud bang and the seat back collapsed. I know I am a fat b@$t@rd but not that fat. It was a fatigue crack of the seat frame that left me flat on my back, not a good idea had it happened a few minutes earlier.
Mike