Tailwheel/crosswind advice please!
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Tailwheel/crosswind advice please!
Hi everybody
I'd like some advice from the experienced tailwheelers out there. I have about 150 hours TT, mainly on the ubiquitous PA28s and C152/172, but have recently jumped into the PFA world with and learned to fly a tailwheel aeroplane. I have about 25 hours tailwheel now (Jodel), 18 solo, but still struggle with crosswinds, even fairly light.
Saturday is a perfect example. Landing on a grass runway, wind was from the right, about 12kts 40 or 50 degrees off the runway. Touchdown itself was fine (wing-down into a three-pointer) and the rollout was straight. As the speed dropped down to about 20kts (so 5-10 seconds after landing, no brakes were used) the aeroplane suddenly started to weathercock into wind, left rudder didn't do anything (too slow to have much rudder authority?) and it took an unpleasant burst of left brake to keep the aeroplane from leaving the runway and hitting a markerboard.
It's not the first time this has happened, and I'm wondering what i'm doing wrong. I'm three-pointering, always; I was taught wheel landings but never like them on grass because a badly-timed bump can ruin even a perfect wheeler. I don't think that's the problem though, rollouts are fine so it's not a lack of rudder at speed. It's the slowing down at the end that catches me out. What am I doing wrong, or is it always like this? I really don't like using brakes, i'm worried about tipping onto the nose.
And finaally, a bit off topic, but I was told that there were two types of tailwheel pilots. Those who have groundlooped, and those yet to groundloop. Is this true, or bar-room banter to scare the new boy?!? I don't think i've come really close yet, plenty of swerves on landing when I was starting but nothing too bad and it's just this bit at almost walking pace now. Does seem like the aeroplane could swap ends at 15kts though. Can I damage the aeroplane at those speeds, or is it just ugly? I've heard that the Jodel wheels aren't very strong in a groundloop?
Love the aeroplane in the air. Don't love crosswinds.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Will (122.45)
I'd like some advice from the experienced tailwheelers out there. I have about 150 hours TT, mainly on the ubiquitous PA28s and C152/172, but have recently jumped into the PFA world with and learned to fly a tailwheel aeroplane. I have about 25 hours tailwheel now (Jodel), 18 solo, but still struggle with crosswinds, even fairly light.
Saturday is a perfect example. Landing on a grass runway, wind was from the right, about 12kts 40 or 50 degrees off the runway. Touchdown itself was fine (wing-down into a three-pointer) and the rollout was straight. As the speed dropped down to about 20kts (so 5-10 seconds after landing, no brakes were used) the aeroplane suddenly started to weathercock into wind, left rudder didn't do anything (too slow to have much rudder authority?) and it took an unpleasant burst of left brake to keep the aeroplane from leaving the runway and hitting a markerboard.
It's not the first time this has happened, and I'm wondering what i'm doing wrong. I'm three-pointering, always; I was taught wheel landings but never like them on grass because a badly-timed bump can ruin even a perfect wheeler. I don't think that's the problem though, rollouts are fine so it's not a lack of rudder at speed. It's the slowing down at the end that catches me out. What am I doing wrong, or is it always like this? I really don't like using brakes, i'm worried about tipping onto the nose.
And finaally, a bit off topic, but I was told that there were two types of tailwheel pilots. Those who have groundlooped, and those yet to groundloop. Is this true, or bar-room banter to scare the new boy?!? I don't think i've come really close yet, plenty of swerves on landing when I was starting but nothing too bad and it's just this bit at almost walking pace now. Does seem like the aeroplane could swap ends at 15kts though. Can I damage the aeroplane at those speeds, or is it just ugly? I've heard that the Jodel wheels aren't very strong in a groundloop?
Love the aeroplane in the air. Don't love crosswinds.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Will (122.45)
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I hardly count as an old hand (approx 150 hours tailwheel out of 310 total) but am definitely a member of the "have groundlooped" club. I know several very experienced tailwheel pilots, instructors included, who are also in that club.
Re the crosswind, as you know, the brakes on tailwheelers are far more for steering with than for stopping, and, as you found, may be needed whilst dancing in a crosswind (especially on a hard runway). The aircraft shouldn't tip up if you are judicious with the brakes. You might try a small application of power in order to push some air past the rudder.
The effects of groundlooping obviously vary according to speed and type. I laughingly refer to my groundloops as gentle pirouettes, and luckily they did not damage the aircraft.
Re the crosswind, as you know, the brakes on tailwheelers are far more for steering with than for stopping, and, as you found, may be needed whilst dancing in a crosswind (especially on a hard runway). The aircraft shouldn't tip up if you are judicious with the brakes. You might try a small application of power in order to push some air past the rudder.
The effects of groundlooping obviously vary according to speed and type. I laughingly refer to my groundloops as gentle pirouettes, and luckily they did not damage the aircraft.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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122.45,
First of all, well done on noticing the problem, and trying to do something about it.
From your brief description, it sounds as if you're not using the ailerons correctly on the roll-out. You don't say which method of cross-wind landing you're using, but whether you're landing wing-low or de-crabbing, you will have some into-wind aileron when you actually land. As you slow, and the ailerons loose effectiveness, you will need to increase the ailerons until they are fully deflected.
Once the ailerons are fully deflected, you might find that in some types, in some cross-winds, you still need to use the brakes to steer. I don't know the Jodel family at all, so I don't know if they fall into this category or not - maybe someone else will be able to say for sure?
As for wheel-landings, I would suggest you get a good instructor to do enough of them with you that you can be confident of them. As soon as the wheels touch, move the stick forward just a tiny amount. Once you've done that, it's simply a matter of doing whatever you need to do to ensure that the attitude remains the same. That way, the wings will not be producing enough lift to counteract your weight. If you bounce due to a bump in the ground after landing (I think this is what you're afraid of, have I got that right?), maintain the attitude and the angle of attack will not change significantly unless it's a really bad bounce (in which case you can go around) and so the aircraft will simply settle back onto the ground again exactly the same way as it would during a 3-pointer (when the wings aren't producing enough lift to keep the aircraft in the air because they are stalled).
All of this sounds like it could be cleared up with just an hour or two with an experienced tail-wheel instructor. Make sure you instructor really does know how to fly tail-draggers properly, though.
I fall into the category that has ground-looped, although it was helped by a wing clipping the crops at the side of the runway. Yes it did damage the aircraft. But even so, I still believe that it's possible to have a long tail-dragging career without groundlooping, as long as you remain constantly on the ball when on or close to the ground, and make sure you respect your aircraft. Do as I say, not as I do!
FFF
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First of all, well done on noticing the problem, and trying to do something about it.
From your brief description, it sounds as if you're not using the ailerons correctly on the roll-out. You don't say which method of cross-wind landing you're using, but whether you're landing wing-low or de-crabbing, you will have some into-wind aileron when you actually land. As you slow, and the ailerons loose effectiveness, you will need to increase the ailerons until they are fully deflected.
Once the ailerons are fully deflected, you might find that in some types, in some cross-winds, you still need to use the brakes to steer. I don't know the Jodel family at all, so I don't know if they fall into this category or not - maybe someone else will be able to say for sure?
As for wheel-landings, I would suggest you get a good instructor to do enough of them with you that you can be confident of them. As soon as the wheels touch, move the stick forward just a tiny amount. Once you've done that, it's simply a matter of doing whatever you need to do to ensure that the attitude remains the same. That way, the wings will not be producing enough lift to counteract your weight. If you bounce due to a bump in the ground after landing (I think this is what you're afraid of, have I got that right?), maintain the attitude and the angle of attack will not change significantly unless it's a really bad bounce (in which case you can go around) and so the aircraft will simply settle back onto the ground again exactly the same way as it would during a 3-pointer (when the wings aren't producing enough lift to keep the aircraft in the air because they are stalled).
All of this sounds like it could be cleared up with just an hour or two with an experienced tail-wheel instructor. Make sure you instructor really does know how to fly tail-draggers properly, though.
I fall into the category that has ground-looped, although it was helped by a wing clipping the crops at the side of the runway. Yes it did damage the aircraft. But even so, I still believe that it's possible to have a long tail-dragging career without groundlooping, as long as you remain constantly on the ball when on or close to the ground, and make sure you respect your aircraft. Do as I say, not as I do!
FFF
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I can't do much apart from offer sympathy - i'm at a similar level of tailwheel experience, and I don't like crosswinds much either. I'm getting better, but still tend to stay on the ground if it looks like it might get beyond me. Overcautious, probably, better safe and all that.
As for groundlooping, I haven't done it ... yet. I've seen FNG groundloop though
and they were rather graceful. In fact as a very low-hours student who didn't know about groundloops, I thought he was showing off... 
As for groundlooping, I haven't done it ... yet. I've seen FNG groundloop though
and they were rather graceful. In fact as a very low-hours student who didn't know about groundloops, I thought he was showing off...
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FFF, I'm not disagreeing, but isn't the enhanced tendency to groundloop in a crosswind landing a product of factors including drift, the keel effects of fuselage and fin, and ground friction, all tending to produce yaw which, if uncorrected, will rotate the aircraft?
Evo, you are, as always, too kind. (PS that time at Popham the aircraft really did have a fault in the tailwheel assembly: honest!, but I've done a proper one without any technical assistance)
Evo, you are, as always, too kind. (PS that time at Popham the aircraft really did have a fault in the tailwheel assembly: honest!, but I've done a proper one without any technical assistance)
Last edited by FNG; 7th Jun 2004 at 10:32.
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I only have about 450 hours tailwheel time and a similar amount in tricycle undercarriages but I have also groundlooped, just once and have witnessed FNG groundloop at a pprune fly-in a couple of years ago at Popham.
Unless they are being grossly mishandled, tailwheel aircraft tend to groundloop as they slow down on the roll out; the rudder runs out of authority because of the reduction in airflow. In the Pushpak it was from 30 to 20 that it was most prone to swap ends - in the Pitts it is the decelleration through 40mph that it can misbehave.
Using asymetric the brakes is fine but use them with caution.
My groundloop occured at an estimated 20mph with quite a stiff wind. I'd flown in excess of 5 hours with 7 landings and was tired and could not wait to put the aeroplane away for the night and stop for a pint on my way home. As I landed at my home field, I slipped into that comfort zone that familiarity engenders. Did not concentrate as hard as I should have done and I reacted too slowly to all the warning signs - result a quick 270 turn and no damage to the aeroplane but my pride was seriously dented!
Stik
Unless they are being grossly mishandled, tailwheel aircraft tend to groundloop as they slow down on the roll out; the rudder runs out of authority because of the reduction in airflow. In the Pushpak it was from 30 to 20 that it was most prone to swap ends - in the Pitts it is the decelleration through 40mph that it can misbehave.
Using asymetric the brakes is fine but use them with caution.
My groundloop occured at an estimated 20mph with quite a stiff wind. I'd flown in excess of 5 hours with 7 landings and was tired and could not wait to put the aeroplane away for the night and stop for a pint on my way home. As I landed at my home field, I slipped into that comfort zone that familiarity engenders. Did not concentrate as hard as I should have done and I reacted too slowly to all the warning signs - result a quick 270 turn and no damage to the aeroplane but my pride was seriously dented!
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I have about 700 hours, mostly in taildraggers, but no Jodel time. A lot has been in the Chipmunk, including various Cubs, Citabrias etc right through to a Waco and Stearman - and lots of others in between.
I go for 3-point as my 'standard' arrival, wheelers if there's a strong wind. You seem to have been taught wheelers as standard, which is a bit odd, and I wonder about your basic tailwheel training. Usually, 3-pointers are taught as standard and wheelers follow on.
If landing out of wind it is not unusual for a taildragger to require steering by ue of differential brakes in the latter part of the landing roll. That's why brakeless aeroplanes, like Tiger Moths, are supposed to be landed into wind at all times if poss.
You are unlikely to tip it on its nose if just one brake is applied - that will cause to it to swing, rather than tip, unless it is done viscously and hard. Be gentle, anticipate, and use the minimum differential brake that will keep you staright.
I'd re-iterate what some have said - find a good tailwheel instructor and do a couple of hours with him/her. Always 3-point unless a wheeler is more appropriate, and don't be afraid to use differntial brake to steer in the rollout if it's needed (but don't over control - little and early is the key!).
BTW, I've yet to groundloop - but I came close a couple of times
SSD
I go for 3-point as my 'standard' arrival, wheelers if there's a strong wind. You seem to have been taught wheelers as standard, which is a bit odd, and I wonder about your basic tailwheel training. Usually, 3-pointers are taught as standard and wheelers follow on.
If landing out of wind it is not unusual for a taildragger to require steering by ue of differential brakes in the latter part of the landing roll. That's why brakeless aeroplanes, like Tiger Moths, are supposed to be landed into wind at all times if poss.
You are unlikely to tip it on its nose if just one brake is applied - that will cause to it to swing, rather than tip, unless it is done viscously and hard. Be gentle, anticipate, and use the minimum differential brake that will keep you staright.
I'd re-iterate what some have said - find a good tailwheel instructor and do a couple of hours with him/her. Always 3-point unless a wheeler is more appropriate, and don't be afraid to use differntial brake to steer in the rollout if it's needed (but don't over control - little and early is the key!).
BTW, I've yet to groundloop - but I came close a couple of times
SSD
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I've done a good bit of tailwheel flying, and I'm er.. no stranger to the crosswind..
First off, we're looking at a 10kt crosswind component here. That is quite a lot and it may be not
that far off the limit for this particular aircraft. On the face of it, it looks like you are doing all the right things - A wing down approach will naturally leave the controls in the right place i.e. into wind aileron and opposite rudder. As speed decreases there will be a point when a bit of brake can often be needed. That's kind of 'how it is'!
Sounds like you are doing OK to me. I guess its all a question of anticipating what's going to happen. You will find many pilots don't even realize they are feeding in a little brake....
I once had an aircraft with a castoring tailwheel and no brakes... I learned all about ground looping from that! (a skid sorted it out in the end)
Best
Kingy
First off, we're looking at a 10kt crosswind component here. That is quite a lot and it may be not
that far off the limit for this particular aircraft. On the face of it, it looks like you are doing all the right things - A wing down approach will naturally leave the controls in the right place i.e. into wind aileron and opposite rudder. As speed decreases there will be a point when a bit of brake can often be needed. That's kind of 'how it is'!
Sounds like you are doing OK to me. I guess its all a question of anticipating what's going to happen. You will find many pilots don't even realize they are feeding in a little brake....
I once had an aircraft with a castoring tailwheel and no brakes... I learned all about ground looping from that! (a skid sorted it out in the end)
Best
Kingy
Why do it if it's not fun?
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FNG - can't disagree with your comments. But 122.45 specifically said that his landing was good, it was the rollout after the landing, once the speed had decreased to around 20kts, which was causing problems. That's why I concentrated on the actions after landing (predominantly the aileron, since that's the one which I suspect most of us, me included, completely ignored until we'd been bitten once or twice!) in my reply.
Stik has emphasises the reasons why this phase of flight is so likely to cause problems. I'd never thought of it quite in quite such simple terms as he's described it, but he has far more experience in all kinds of tail-draggers than I do so I'll definitely listen to him!
FFF
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Stik has emphasises the reasons why this phase of flight is so likely to cause problems. I'd never thought of it quite in quite such simple terms as he's described it, but he has far more experience in all kinds of tail-draggers than I do so I'll definitely listen to him!
FFF
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As a matter of interest, on which surface are you most prone to groundlooping, grass or 'hard'?
Hard is far less forgiving. The drag of grass on the wheels helps it to stay straight on the roll out. And if you land a little sideways on grass no one need know. On hard, there will be a sqeaking of tyres and a nasty lurch.
SSD
Hard is far less forgiving. The drag of grass on the wheels helps it to stay straight on the roll out. And if you land a little sideways on grass no one need know. On hard, there will be a sqeaking of tyres and a nasty lurch.
SSD
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Thank you all for some very thought provoking advice.
First off, just to clarify I was taught three-pointers first during my tailwheel lessons. Wheel landings came later, I just wanted to clarify I had been taught them (although I do not like them and I am not confident enough to use them, that's a secondary topic!). I do need to spend some more time on them with an instructor, but I don't think that my lack of ability was connected with the problem here. I was rolling out straight without problems and with little need for rudder for at least five seconds before the aeroplane started heading into wind.
My tailwheel instruction was very good, the instructor had far more to teach than I could absorb. Maybe it is time to go back for some more, his parting advice was that I was safe and to come back when I had 50 hours on the aeroplane so he could iron out any little problems then. I think he is right when the wind is down the runway, but in crosswinds i'm not so sure.
FlyingForFun, thank you for an excellent analysis (I did say what type of landing I was doing, wing down, but apart from that!). It made me realise one big mistake - when I landed the stick came straight back, so I lost the into wind aileron. I'm not sure if that caused my problem or not, but it's still a mistake.
SticknRudder, Shaggy Sheep Driver (i'm not sure what that name means) and Kingy, thank you as well. It is the low speed behaviour that is causing me problems, it seems that the 20-30 kts range is the danger area. I'm not really sure what the crosswind limit is (I did know, but my limit is lower than the Jodel's so i've forgotten) but I had hoped that 8 knots would be ok. I think my approach technique is generally good, wing down seems to work well for me and I never had problems with a PA28 up to maximum demonstrated - I know tailwheel aeroplanes are more sensitive. I would think that crosswinds up to 10kts are fairly common where i fly, maybe i'm too keen to fly before I have the basics.
Plenty to think about, thank you. I'm not sure about the responses to my "have you groundlooped" question, hopefully it's just not as bad as i expect - i have visions of the main landing gear failing mid loop, H.S. Plourde (sp?) makes it sound very dangerous. That doesn't seem to be the general experience, which is a relief.
Will.
First off, just to clarify I was taught three-pointers first during my tailwheel lessons. Wheel landings came later, I just wanted to clarify I had been taught them (although I do not like them and I am not confident enough to use them, that's a secondary topic!). I do need to spend some more time on them with an instructor, but I don't think that my lack of ability was connected with the problem here. I was rolling out straight without problems and with little need for rudder for at least five seconds before the aeroplane started heading into wind.
My tailwheel instruction was very good, the instructor had far more to teach than I could absorb. Maybe it is time to go back for some more, his parting advice was that I was safe and to come back when I had 50 hours on the aeroplane so he could iron out any little problems then. I think he is right when the wind is down the runway, but in crosswinds i'm not so sure.
FlyingForFun, thank you for an excellent analysis (I did say what type of landing I was doing, wing down, but apart from that!). It made me realise one big mistake - when I landed the stick came straight back, so I lost the into wind aileron. I'm not sure if that caused my problem or not, but it's still a mistake.
SticknRudder, Shaggy Sheep Driver (i'm not sure what that name means) and Kingy, thank you as well. It is the low speed behaviour that is causing me problems, it seems that the 20-30 kts range is the danger area. I'm not really sure what the crosswind limit is (I did know, but my limit is lower than the Jodel's so i've forgotten) but I had hoped that 8 knots would be ok. I think my approach technique is generally good, wing down seems to work well for me and I never had problems with a PA28 up to maximum demonstrated - I know tailwheel aeroplanes are more sensitive. I would think that crosswinds up to 10kts are fairly common where i fly, maybe i'm too keen to fly before I have the basics.
Plenty to think about, thank you. I'm not sure about the responses to my "have you groundlooped" question, hopefully it's just not as bad as i expect - i have visions of the main landing gear failing mid loop, H.S. Plourde (sp?) makes it sound very dangerous. That doesn't seem to be the general experience, which is a relief.
Will.
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Shaggy Sheep Driver (i'm not sure what that name means)
It refers to my Yak 52 flying days, and it's wrong on 2 counts; a Yak is a shaggy cow, not a shaggy sheep. And I don't fly Yaks any more anyway.
Perhaps I should change it - or revert to my real name, as Tricky Woo has.
SSD
PS - groundloops; some aeroplanes' undercarriages will take the sidways forces OK. Other will collapse. I understand that Jodels are not very forgiving in this respect.
It refers to my Yak 52 flying days, and it's wrong on 2 counts; a Yak is a shaggy cow, not a shaggy sheep. And I don't fly Yaks any more anyway.
Perhaps I should change it - or revert to my real name, as Tricky Woo has.
SSD
PS - groundloops; some aeroplanes' undercarriages will take the sidways forces OK. Other will collapse. I understand that Jodels are not very forgiving in this respect.
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Before I start I do not profess to be an expert on this subject.....
but....
I usually find that the easiest time to keep the a/c striaght is just after touchdown when the airspeed over the rudder is still relatively high. I usually concentrate at this point in lining up part of the cowling with something at the end of the runway and fixating on it. The tiniest swing can be noticed using this method and counteracted very quickly.
If the aircraft is running nice and straight at this point it is easier to control as you enter the "loop speed zone". As the airspeed decreases over the rudder it becomes progressively useless and you have no choice but to rely solely on the tailwheel for directional control. It is at this point that my fixation on an object in the distance is even more pronounced and my feet are ready for a sharp dab of indivifual brake if there is a known X-wind. Do not be afraid to dab a single brake but make sure it is literally just a dab. If it is for too long the swing will start the other way and you might be better to close your eyes from her on in!
I was taught that 3 quick jabs are far better than a "sideways inducing prolonged one" and it seems to work ok for me.
I fall into the "not done it YET" category although i've nearly been there a couple of times in my short tailwheel career!!
but....
I usually find that the easiest time to keep the a/c striaght is just after touchdown when the airspeed over the rudder is still relatively high. I usually concentrate at this point in lining up part of the cowling with something at the end of the runway and fixating on it. The tiniest swing can be noticed using this method and counteracted very quickly.
If the aircraft is running nice and straight at this point it is easier to control as you enter the "loop speed zone". As the airspeed decreases over the rudder it becomes progressively useless and you have no choice but to rely solely on the tailwheel for directional control. It is at this point that my fixation on an object in the distance is even more pronounced and my feet are ready for a sharp dab of indivifual brake if there is a known X-wind. Do not be afraid to dab a single brake but make sure it is literally just a dab. If it is for too long the swing will start the other way and you might be better to close your eyes from her on in!
I was taught that 3 quick jabs are far better than a "sideways inducing prolonged one" and it seems to work ok for me.
I fall into the "not done it YET" category although i've nearly been there a couple of times in my short tailwheel career!!
Grandpa Aerotart
hmmm...700+ dragging the little wheel...mostly 185s bushflying.
"With little need of rudder for five seconds...'
I think she just 'got away' from you a bit...with experience you'll tend to anticipate a little more. As you decelerate you will need to keep that wing down and use brake and power sometimes to increase the rudder effectiveness..little jabs/spurts of windflow not great roaring forward thrust.
Me? Never groundlooped landing....but twice on takeoff.
Taking off once from a mountain strip the seat slid back a few notches and I had to slide way down just to reach the peddle...by which time we had swerved a fair way off course and all I could see out the side was the embankment running along one side...didn't have the reach for the required braking so dragged the aircraft into the air and staggered over the embankment with the stall warning blaring...wonderfull aeroplane the 185.
On another occasion I had a brake line burst landing at a very high mountain strip with an elevated threshold and a 30 degree bend before the slope went from a few % up to about 25% with a transverse slope of about 4%...reverse camber. about 400m long, 19m wide with 4 foot deep rain trenches down each side...and as an aside a very cute little bridge into the parking bay.
Now it was the left brake that failed but the strip turned right on landing but slopped off to the left
I rolled right up the top and stopped the aircraft across at the top. Unloaded the pax and thought about the departure. I had a new trainee along, 1 week in the country
He was all for staying but it was late in the day and I did not fancy a night in this village 7000' above sea level.
Oh I nearly forgot...a strong quartering tailwind from the right for takeoff...can we see where this is heading...I kinda needed that left brake.
Two attempts from the top, one gently rolling tail down to use the tailwheel steering and one with full power immediately for rudder control ended up in grandaddy groundloops before the tail ending up swinging back downhill with full power arresting our backward roll down the hill and got us back onto the top of the strip
Both at low forward speed I might add...but still plenty of 'wind up effect'.
All to the wild amusement of the assembled natives.
So I shut down and called the villages up to the top and we rolled the aircraft down to the 'flat bit' at the bottom...100m ending in a verticle drop of several thousand feet into a gorge...Ya shoulda seen the look on the newbies face when I said "Inya get where off!!!"
To be fair dropping off elevated thresholds was commonplace when dragging full loads out of very high but virually flat strips...just the newbie didn't know that and I wasn't about to spoil the effect for him
When we got home I three pointed and stopped on the hard surface home runway without trouble...took Scott a few beers to see the funny side of it.
Like I said...wonderfull aeroplane the 185...looked after me through my misspent youthfull stupidity stage...as did the Islander and Twin Otter in late years
Chuck.
PS Bare in mind I was flying 12-15 sectors a day in the 185 in and out of wet, muddy, steep, flat, curved, rough mountain strips and this was near the end of my full time career on type, although I owned one for a while years later....to say I knew the old girl well was an understatement...even 18 years later I have the deepest respect for taildraggers in general and the mighty 185 in particular. That 'respect' never diminished and only relaxed when the aircraft was stopped, shutdown and chocked
"With little need of rudder for five seconds...'
I think she just 'got away' from you a bit...with experience you'll tend to anticipate a little more. As you decelerate you will need to keep that wing down and use brake and power sometimes to increase the rudder effectiveness..little jabs/spurts of windflow not great roaring forward thrust.
Me? Never groundlooped landing....but twice on takeoff.
Taking off once from a mountain strip the seat slid back a few notches and I had to slide way down just to reach the peddle...by which time we had swerved a fair way off course and all I could see out the side was the embankment running along one side...didn't have the reach for the required braking so dragged the aircraft into the air and staggered over the embankment with the stall warning blaring...wonderfull aeroplane the 185.
On another occasion I had a brake line burst landing at a very high mountain strip with an elevated threshold and a 30 degree bend before the slope went from a few % up to about 25% with a transverse slope of about 4%...reverse camber. about 400m long, 19m wide with 4 foot deep rain trenches down each side...and as an aside a very cute little bridge into the parking bay.
Now it was the left brake that failed but the strip turned right on landing but slopped off to the left
I rolled right up the top and stopped the aircraft across at the top. Unloaded the pax and thought about the departure. I had a new trainee along, 1 week in the country
He was all for staying but it was late in the day and I did not fancy a night in this village 7000' above sea level.
Oh I nearly forgot...a strong quartering tailwind from the right for takeoff...can we see where this is heading...I kinda needed that left brake.
Two attempts from the top, one gently rolling tail down to use the tailwheel steering and one with full power immediately for rudder control ended up in grandaddy groundloops before the tail ending up swinging back downhill with full power arresting our backward roll down the hill and got us back onto the top of the strip
Both at low forward speed I might add...but still plenty of 'wind up effect'.
All to the wild amusement of the assembled natives.
So I shut down and called the villages up to the top and we rolled the aircraft down to the 'flat bit' at the bottom...100m ending in a verticle drop of several thousand feet into a gorge...Ya shoulda seen the look on the newbies face when I said "Inya get where off!!!"
To be fair dropping off elevated thresholds was commonplace when dragging full loads out of very high but virually flat strips...just the newbie didn't know that and I wasn't about to spoil the effect for him
When we got home I three pointed and stopped on the hard surface home runway without trouble...took Scott a few beers to see the funny side of it.
Like I said...wonderfull aeroplane the 185...looked after me through my misspent youthfull stupidity stage...as did the Islander and Twin Otter in late years
Chuck.
PS Bare in mind I was flying 12-15 sectors a day in the 185 in and out of wet, muddy, steep, flat, curved, rough mountain strips and this was near the end of my full time career on type, although I owned one for a while years later....to say I knew the old girl well was an understatement...even 18 years later I have the deepest respect for taildraggers in general and the mighty 185 in particular. That 'respect' never diminished and only relaxed when the aircraft was stopped, shutdown and chocked
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I've been in an aircraft that's ground looped (in fact the flight has been mentioned on this thread....) and it was all pretty un-dramatic to be honest.
I think FNG describes it best as a gentle pirouette - quite graceful really
tKF
) and it was all pretty un-dramatic to be honest.I think FNG describes it best as a gentle pirouette - quite graceful really
tKF
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I'm in the "not swapped ends yet" camp at the moment. Nearest I got was when one of the brake cables pulled out of its attachment leaving me with full brake on one side and none on the other. Now I tend to use them for steering rather than slowing down.
A couple of thoughts.
Assuming your tailwheel is NOT free-castoring are you ensuring that it is properly locked before take off? We have the Maule tailwheel, which has a spring-loaded bolt to engage the steering horn with the kingpin. The bolt is released by a cam when the steering angle passes a certain point and should re-engage automatically when you line up. However if it is mucky or lacking lubrication it might not do so and our tailwheel has even been seen doing 360's all on its own while taxying. You can check whether it has re-engaged once you are lined up by pressing on the rudder pedals. If they are relatively free-moving you ain't locked.
Second thought. For the tailwheel to be effective as a steering device it needs some weight on it. Do you have the stick hard back on the landing roll? If not the tail can be light or even bounce back into the air, making it easy to weathercock.
Mike
A couple of thoughts.
Assuming your tailwheel is NOT free-castoring are you ensuring that it is properly locked before take off? We have the Maule tailwheel, which has a spring-loaded bolt to engage the steering horn with the kingpin. The bolt is released by a cam when the steering angle passes a certain point and should re-engage automatically when you line up. However if it is mucky or lacking lubrication it might not do so and our tailwheel has even been seen doing 360's all on its own while taxying. You can check whether it has re-engaged once you are lined up by pressing on the rudder pedals. If they are relatively free-moving you ain't locked.
Second thought. For the tailwheel to be effective as a steering device it needs some weight on it. Do you have the stick hard back on the landing roll? If not the tail can be light or even bounce back into the air, making it easy to weathercock.
Mike
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That's why I concentrated on the actions after landing (predominantly the aileron, since that's the one which I suspect most of us, me included, completely ignored until we'd been bitten once or twice!) in my reply.
Someone wondered whether you were doing wing down or de-crabbing as your technique. Well, if you're flying a small taildragger you can only do wing-down. De-crabbing in a light taildragger in any kind of crosswind is a recipe for disaster, especially on tarmac.
I have groundlooped a Super Cub on tarmac, following a wheel landing with too much power. Got her down, chopped the power and let the tail drop suddenly. Whoosh! Round she went. Gyroscopic precession and loss of P-force, I guess?
Anyway, read Stick and Rudder by Langewiesche, then re-read it. Bit longwinded, but packed with gems.
QDM
P.S. On Saturday night, I came into a markedly uphill strip with a slight tailwind, flared, put in a bit of power to cushion the landing on the uphill, gently tried to tease her down, gently, gently, gently, little bit of power, flying up the hill, pulling back, pulling back, power still on, aiming for a nice smooth landing... then she went, dropped a wing to the right, thankfully from only two feet or so and no harm done. Lessons: even Super Cubs bite, and do so with no warning; don't drag out the flare to a ridiculous degree with power on an uphill, just get it down -- they're designed to arrive firmly sometimes.
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Good advice here.
The full aeliron caution was very good.
I teach in this order.
(1) Student uses full length of runway with tail in the air until they are able to fully control the thing on the runway. Usually takes a few sessions on the runway and spread out over several lessons.
(2) Student learns wheel landings until student can consistantly show profficiency and confidence.
(3) Three point landings until student is profficient and confident.
I have over ten thousand hours tailwheel and have not ground looped yet....... BUT, I was checking a line pilot out on a Grumman Turbo Goose one day and he made a beautiful wheel landing and promptly rolled the thrust levers into bata and started into reverse and the right prop went into reverse way ahead of the left one and before I could blink the fu.kin thing was off the runway onto the grass... I managed to straighten it out and back on the runway.
He was a Twin Otter float pilot and thought nothing of going into reverse as soon as he landed.
Dosen't work worth a sh.t in a close coupled airplane like the Grumman Goose.
Anyhow good discussion troops.
Chuck
The full aeliron caution was very good.
I teach in this order.
(1) Student uses full length of runway with tail in the air until they are able to fully control the thing on the runway. Usually takes a few sessions on the runway and spread out over several lessons.
(2) Student learns wheel landings until student can consistantly show profficiency and confidence.
(3) Three point landings until student is profficient and confident.
I have over ten thousand hours tailwheel and have not ground looped yet....... BUT, I was checking a line pilot out on a Grumman Turbo Goose one day and he made a beautiful wheel landing and promptly rolled the thrust levers into bata and started into reverse and the right prop went into reverse way ahead of the left one and before I could blink the fu.kin thing was off the runway onto the grass... I managed to straighten it out and back on the runway.
He was a Twin Otter float pilot and thought nothing of going into reverse as soon as he landed.
Dosen't work worth a sh.t in a close coupled airplane like the Grumman Goose.
Anyhow good discussion troops.
Chuck
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If you're flying a small taildragger you can only do wing-down
Chuck - I'm curious as to your reasons for teaching wheel-landings before 3-pointers. I tend to think of wheel-landings as a) being more difficult, because of both the precise timing necessary in moving the stick forward, and the precise use of the rudder to control the roll-out, and b) being significantly different to a nose-wheel landing, whereas the 3-pointer is almost identical to a well-performed nose-wheel landing. Teaching 3-pointers first, therefore, seems to be logical in terms of providing the student with building blocks, and building on what he already knows.
FFF
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