Building Hrs in USA (together!)
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Building Hrs in USA (together!)
Hello,
I'm looking for fellow pilots who are thinking about or better said are willing to built flight time together with others to share expenses ....
I'm thinking about California/USA in july/august this year.
Need some info on where to rent too.
Someone out there with the same idea?
Regards,
R.
I'm looking for fellow pilots who are thinking about or better said are willing to built flight time together with others to share expenses ....
I'm thinking about California/USA in july/august this year.
Need some info on where to rent too.
Someone out there with the same idea?
Regards,
R.
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Did it in April, with Cusco, and had a great time. We went all over California, round the Grand Canyon, and most places in between. Excellent flying!
We rented an Arrow from Air Desert Pacific, at Brackett Field. Excellent value - cheaper than I can buy fuel for the Arrow I fly in the UK.
BUT ... it's going to be HOT there at that time of year. I avoid California/Arizona/Nevada between May and September - but I'm a wilting little flower.
We rented an Arrow from Air Desert Pacific, at Brackett Field. Excellent value - cheaper than I can buy fuel for the Arrow I fly in the UK.
BUT ... it's going to be HOT there at that time of year. I avoid California/Arizona/Nevada between May and September - but I'm a wilting little flower.
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A genuine question (not a snide dig, honest!): if you're talking loggable hours, how does doing it with someone else share expenses? It would be much more fun, but as it would take longer presumably you'd end up spending more not less (on hotels, food etc.)?
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Your just right looking for fellow pilots.
I once did fifty hours on my own over there and its hard work.
Also you will learn just as much if not more when someone else is flying and you have time to take it all in.
And it will be much more FUN
Best of luck
Tony R
I once did fifty hours on my own over there and its hard work.
Also you will learn just as much if not more when someone else is flying and you have time to take it all in.
And it will be much more FUN
Best of luck
Tony R
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Pinga,
Moderate this:
"Alternatively both of you book all the hours (and take a chance)!!!!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is not an "alternative" and posts like this are a sure way to attract unwanted attention from regulatory authorities who may be alarmed at such suggestions.
Pilots are responsible and are expected in some ways to self regulate without the need for scrutiny.
This forum in particular is filled with relativley new pilots (me included) who may take the suggestion seriously but for it's illegality.
Of course if an experienced pilot does not require the hours then assume command and log 'em , it's an excellent idea from the point of view of workload reduction, hence less tiring and a bit of morale to have a mate flying with you, if similar schemes crop up next year I may well put my name in the hat, for now though I'm recently qualified and therefore totally skint.
Moderate this:
"Alternatively both of you book all the hours (and take a chance)!!!!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is not an "alternative" and posts like this are a sure way to attract unwanted attention from regulatory authorities who may be alarmed at such suggestions.
Pilots are responsible and are expected in some ways to self regulate without the need for scrutiny.
This forum in particular is filled with relativley new pilots (me included) who may take the suggestion seriously but for it's illegality.
Of course if an experienced pilot does not require the hours then assume command and log 'em , it's an excellent idea from the point of view of workload reduction, hence less tiring and a bit of morale to have a mate flying with you, if similar schemes crop up next year I may well put my name in the hat, for now though I'm recently qualified and therefore totally skint.
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I would be willing to join you but not until mid September. I've done the Air Desert Pacific rental before and fle w all over CA/AZ & NV like Keef and would be happy to go again, excellent flying. If you like drop me a pm.
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Without wishing to become TOO controversial, I am intrigued as to why people seem to think it is cheaper to hours build in the USA. I accept that the weather is more or less guaranteed but the actual costs of flying really can't be THAT much cheaper in the grand scheme of things.
Let's say your average hours builder buys a 2 seat PFA a/c for £10K. That figure is not a depreciating one and will be returned at the point of sale. The only cost that can be attributed to the actual ownership is loan interest if the money is borrowed.
Now then, accepting that the a/c will not be hangared for the period of ownership (let's say March through to October) in a bid to save costs, the actual cost of keepng at a strip/airfield outside are negligible.
This period of time gives the owner seven months (that's 56 weekend flying days) hundreds of summertime evening hours and even more on the days off work that the person takes!
Insurance.........none? Perhaps. Or let's say £400 for the period.
Fuel.........4 gallons per hour is £16 per hour of 4 star.
Landing fees........do a deal with the airfield. Too many don't and get stung by this old chestnut.
Maintenance.......if it's just had its Permit renewal when you bought it and it's sound there shouldn't be any more than a 50 hr check now and again at around £150. When you sell the plane in October it will still be advertised by you as having 5 months on its Permit.
Now then. 100 hours in this period is easily achievable. That puts your costs as follows.....
Insurance £4
Fuel..........£16
Maint........£5
Total costs per hour £25. Is it really that simple? I think so.
So, why the need to go to the USA? Apart from depriving the already struggling UK airfields of revenue, wouldn't it be nice to have a plane of your own without having to book it? Or is it that the idea of flying a 1960 Aeronca instead of a shiny Warrior is too much for some to cope with?
I am not posting this to entice a flare, reaction or aircraft type war. I just feel that there is a whole world of very affordable flying in the UK that so many people just don't seem to have found yet.
Let's say your average hours builder buys a 2 seat PFA a/c for £10K. That figure is not a depreciating one and will be returned at the point of sale. The only cost that can be attributed to the actual ownership is loan interest if the money is borrowed.
Now then, accepting that the a/c will not be hangared for the period of ownership (let's say March through to October) in a bid to save costs, the actual cost of keepng at a strip/airfield outside are negligible.
This period of time gives the owner seven months (that's 56 weekend flying days) hundreds of summertime evening hours and even more on the days off work that the person takes!
Insurance.........none? Perhaps. Or let's say £400 for the period.
Fuel.........4 gallons per hour is £16 per hour of 4 star.
Landing fees........do a deal with the airfield. Too many don't and get stung by this old chestnut.
Maintenance.......if it's just had its Permit renewal when you bought it and it's sound there shouldn't be any more than a 50 hr check now and again at around £150. When you sell the plane in October it will still be advertised by you as having 5 months on its Permit.
Now then. 100 hours in this period is easily achievable. That puts your costs as follows.....
Insurance £4
Fuel..........£16
Maint........£5
Total costs per hour £25. Is it really that simple? I think so.
So, why the need to go to the USA? Apart from depriving the already struggling UK airfields of revenue, wouldn't it be nice to have a plane of your own without having to book it? Or is it that the idea of flying a 1960 Aeronca instead of a shiny Warrior is too much for some to cope with?
I am not posting this to entice a flare, reaction or aircraft type war. I just feel that there is a whole world of very affordable flying in the UK that so many people just don't seem to have found yet.
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Depends what you fly, Monocock. If you have access to a PFA type, all insured and ready to fly, then yes: that can be cheap.
But if you don't, and want some good experiences, then a Dial-A-Flight to LA and a block of 40 hours from ADP takes a lot of beating. Flying over the Grand Canyon, and into Big Bear, and Palm Springs, and Page, and Harris Ranch, and round the LA Shoreline or San Francisco Bay tour - well, that's something quite different.
Sharing the hours is fine - I find that there's a limit to how many hours I want to fly in any given day, but if there's another enthusiastic pilot (Hi Cusco!) along as well, you can do twice as many together.
But if you don't, and want some good experiences, then a Dial-A-Flight to LA and a block of 40 hours from ADP takes a lot of beating. Flying over the Grand Canyon, and into Big Bear, and Palm Springs, and Page, and Harris Ranch, and round the LA Shoreline or San Francisco Bay tour - well, that's something quite different.
Sharing the hours is fine - I find that there's a limit to how many hours I want to fly in any given day, but if there's another enthusiastic pilot (Hi Cusco!) along as well, you can do twice as many together.
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Keef
With all due respect, I fear you have missed my point.
Too many people are unaware of the REAL situation when it comes to taking the plunge of owning your own. If people do it correctly, they'll get far more bang for their buck.
If however it is more of a sightseeing trip rather than hours building then I take your point.
Just an individuals view.
M
With all due respect, I fear you have missed my point.
Too many people are unaware of the REAL situation when it comes to taking the plunge of owning your own. If people do it correctly, they'll get far more bang for their buck.
If however it is more of a sightseeing trip rather than hours building then I take your point.
Just an individuals view.
M
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Quite apart from the cost per hour, there is the experience aspect of flying in the USA. Yes, it is very interesting flying into Vegas, flying over the Grand Canyon, Sedona and the desert or low level past Miami Beach and Florida keys or the California coastline but the experience of flying into "real" airports rather than just your average boring municipal airport is invaluable. Flying amongst jet traffic in a disciplined environment is a most enlightening and valuable experience too. Surely the whole purpose of building hours is to gain experience and in my view UK flying and especially in a pfa type aircraft is of limited value. The USA destinations always seem to be a bit more of a cerebral stimulant compared to UK destinations. I fly in the UK and USA but the prospect of a flying holiday in the UK for me remains unappealing.
Owning a pfa type aircraft is fine but there is the downside of repairs and these can and do work out expensive from time to time plus there is the restriction of night flights and built up areas in pfa aircraft The absence of a full panel in most pfa types is also a downside since familiarity with radio navigation is in my view essential for those intending to become serious or commercial pilots.
Owning a pfa type aircraft is fine but there is the downside of repairs and these can and do work out expensive from time to time plus there is the restriction of night flights and built up areas in pfa aircraft The absence of a full panel in most pfa types is also a downside since familiarity with radio navigation is in my view essential for those intending to become serious or commercial pilots.
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Monocock - I take your point fine.
Where I fly (in the South East) there are some excellent airfields, especially if (like me) you enjoy trips abroad. Southend has radar, ILS, a long hard runway, and all the facilities you could need. I enjoy flying from here, in an Arrow that costs me £65 for every hour I fly (the fixed charges are something else, but they are paid before I start). I own one sixth of my own, and that works extremely well. We did try negotiating landing fees, but nowhere within 50 miles that has the sort of surface we need was even vaguely interested.
I looked at PFA types some years ago, and they just didn't ring my bell. Each to his own, I suppose. If you're looking to hours-build towards a commercial rating or two, then the sort of flying Cusco and I did in the USA in April is ideal: in and out of major airports, mixing it with jet traffic.
We in the Arrow were undoubtedly the scruffiest and cheapest on the apron in several of the places we visited, but we got the same courtesy, complimentary coffee, and above all treatment from ATC.
The scenery was magnificent - that's just a bonus. That we met up with Chilli Monster and Dr Dawn (and several others) was the icing on the cake.
If the weather was a bit "iffy", we just filed IFR and went. No hassle with Eurocontrol to try to get the flight plan accepted, no scary bills afterwards, no being forced out or refused transit.
And all for under £50 an hour, at 130 knots and in airways. We thought it was invaluable experience. For someone looking for an ATPL in years to come, that would have been very valid experience - probably more so than bimbling across rural England in a PFA type.
Each to his own, but to a prospective ATPL building hours...
Where I fly (in the South East) there are some excellent airfields, especially if (like me) you enjoy trips abroad. Southend has radar, ILS, a long hard runway, and all the facilities you could need. I enjoy flying from here, in an Arrow that costs me £65 for every hour I fly (the fixed charges are something else, but they are paid before I start). I own one sixth of my own, and that works extremely well. We did try negotiating landing fees, but nowhere within 50 miles that has the sort of surface we need was even vaguely interested.
I looked at PFA types some years ago, and they just didn't ring my bell. Each to his own, I suppose. If you're looking to hours-build towards a commercial rating or two, then the sort of flying Cusco and I did in the USA in April is ideal: in and out of major airports, mixing it with jet traffic.
We in the Arrow were undoubtedly the scruffiest and cheapest on the apron in several of the places we visited, but we got the same courtesy, complimentary coffee, and above all treatment from ATC.
The scenery was magnificent - that's just a bonus. That we met up with Chilli Monster and Dr Dawn (and several others) was the icing on the cake.
If the weather was a bit "iffy", we just filed IFR and went. No hassle with Eurocontrol to try to get the flight plan accepted, no scary bills afterwards, no being forced out or refused transit.
And all for under £50 an hour, at 130 knots and in airways. We thought it was invaluable experience. For someone looking for an ATPL in years to come, that would have been very valid experience - probably more so than bimbling across rural England in a PFA type.
Each to his own, but to a prospective ATPL building hours...
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We see numerous pilots from overseas at the EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh Wisconsin every year. Maybe you can hook up with someone that is planning on flying to Oshkosh the week of July 26th. Where else can you go and see over 14,000 aircraft at the same time and watch several thousand operations per day of the air show.
The EAA has a special tent for foreign pilots to relax, eat, and enjoy watching the show at. http://www.eaa.org then click on the AirVenture link.
Mike
NATCA FWA
The EAA has a special tent for foreign pilots to relax, eat, and enjoy watching the show at. http://www.eaa.org then click on the AirVenture link.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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I could be convinced.....and we'll both log hours if you wan't to fly under the hood, as I log according to the FARs 
California though, much more fun, excellent mountain flying. I don't do C152's, and have an "expensive taste in aircraft"....ie a new 172 for $100 as opposed to a rattly old dog for $60. Actually I know a place to get an OMF Sympthony for $75 an hour. A brilliant 2 seater, fast, roomy, stick, twin 430's......an excellent aircraft if you want.
EA
California though, much more fun, excellent mountain flying. I don't do C152's, and have an "expensive taste in aircraft"....ie a new 172 for $100 as opposed to a rattly old dog for $60. Actually I know a place to get an OMF Sympthony for $75 an hour. A brilliant 2 seater, fast, roomy, stick, twin 430's......an excellent aircraft if you want.
EA
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Let's say your average hours builder buys a 2 seat PFA a/c for £10K. That figure is not a depreciating one and will be returned at the point of sale. The only cost that can be attributed to the actual ownership is loan interest if the money is borrowed.
When the you-know-what hits the fan, all the button-pushing, autopilot cruising and 8000 foot runway experience in the world isn't going to help you. Knowing how to fly an aircraft just might.
QDM
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ownership Vs Rental
This was something I pondered a few months ago. The long term aim is to gain the frozen ATPL, but it would also be nice to have a share in something for the weekends!
However, for me the risk of buying a share was too great. I could just about afford to buy a share in a PFA machine, but that was all my savings, if any further costs had arisen I would have been stuck. Therefore renting in USA is the 'risk free' option, though not necesarily the cheaper option per hour.
As much as I wish to own a share I don't think its a game to get into if you are skint!! (But after I've found a rich bloke......)?
GQ
However, for me the risk of buying a share was too great. I could just about afford to buy a share in a PFA machine, but that was all my savings, if any further costs had arisen I would have been stuck. Therefore renting in USA is the 'risk free' option, though not necesarily the cheaper option per hour.
As much as I wish to own a share I don't think its a game to get into if you are skint!! (But after I've found a rich bloke......)?
GQ
