Spinner Less
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 630
Likes: 2
From: UK
DOC
Fear not the spinner has far more to do with the look of speed than any real benefit to the ingestion of cooling air.
The air around the base of a prop rotating at 2500rpm or so is to say the least pretty disturbed and won't be much helped into the cooling intakes by the spinner.
Take a look at the older machines (Austers, Cessna 120 etc) - no spinner or a very small one at best.
Trust what the engineers tell you - they just might be telling you the truth......
Fear not the spinner has far more to do with the look of speed than any real benefit to the ingestion of cooling air.
The air around the base of a prop rotating at 2500rpm or so is to say the least pretty disturbed and won't be much helped into the cooling intakes by the spinner.
Take a look at the older machines (Austers, Cessna 120 etc) - no spinner or a very small one at best.
Trust what the engineers tell you - they just might be telling you the truth......
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
Having watched the DR400 glider tugs at a number of UK sites flying year in year out at low speed and high power with no problems I hardly see this as a problem for a touring aircraft at 60- 75% power and much higher airspeed !.
Sorry guys it's time to trust the greasy working class guys in the hangar !!!!.
Sorry guys it's time to trust the greasy working class guys in the hangar !!!!.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
146 fixer
The engineering company looking after this aircraft have told the owners that the aircraft CAN be flown without the spinner.
They only have to look out of the window to see a number of glider tugs flying all day without spinners to see that no harm will come to the aircraft !.
Why this debate has come this far I cant understand the owners have paid for professional advice and now they seem to want to check that out on an public forum inhabited by people of unknown qualification to comment.
As for the link to the maintenance company above if you think that these people are good and you have no financial conection to them all well and good but if you are connected then this link breaks the pprune rules on advertising and should be deleted.
They only have to look out of the window to see a number of glider tugs flying all day without spinners to see that no harm will come to the aircraft !.
Why this debate has come this far I cant understand the owners have paid for professional advice and now they seem to want to check that out on an public forum inhabited by people of unknown qualification to comment.
As for the link to the maintenance company above if you think that these people are good and you have no financial conection to them all well and good but if you are connected then this link breaks the pprune rules on advertising and should be deleted.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
From: london
you asked
Can a Robin DR400/180 be flown without a spinner?
yes it can
can it be legally flown without a spinner is another question.
phone caa (airwothiness) and ask, if nes get a faxed one off approval to fly it somwhere where you can get one!
Can a Robin DR400/180 be flown without a spinner?
yes it can
can it be legally flown without a spinner is another question.
phone caa (airwothiness) and ask, if nes get a faxed one off approval to fly it somwhere where you can get one!
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
Oh Dear !.
There is nothing like aviation to rule out common sence and to prouduce tons of paperwork.
So I shall say it one more time slowly.
Most of the Robin glider tugs in the UK do not have spinners fitted.
Whatunion you seem to have a vice like grip on the regulations but do you have the same grip on common sence and the normal practices when flying this type of aircraft ?
There is nothing like aviation to rule out common sence and to prouduce tons of paperwork.
So I shall say it one more time slowly.
Most of the Robin glider tugs in the UK do not have spinners fitted.
Whatunion you seem to have a vice like grip on the regulations but do you have the same grip on common sence and the normal practices when flying this type of aircraft ?
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
From: Enniskillen
A & C, Your attitude sucks.
If the aircraft requires a spinner legally then it should not be flown without on unless it is an approved ferry flight to the engineer.
If the hoffman four blade prop is fitted without one then it must be approved without a spinner.
DOC 400, if you cant get an engineer to provide this information then DO ring the CAA, cause your insurance company soon will if you have any sort of incident.
Tony R
If the aircraft requires a spinner legally then it should not be flown without on unless it is an approved ferry flight to the engineer.
If the hoffman four blade prop is fitted without one then it must be approved without a spinner.
DOC 400, if you cant get an engineer to provide this information then DO ring the CAA, cause your insurance company soon will if you have any sort of incident.
Tony R
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 630
Likes: 2
From: UK
Have to agree in total with A&C on this debate - despite his appreciation of all things wood.
As for the rather aggressive rantings of ex-PFA BB renowned Mr TonyR: before one accuses someone of a sucking attitude, best you know whether or not they know what they are talking about.
As for MDareoservices - my how Glatton has changed since the last time I passed by! From a small, boggy farmstrip to a massive M3 housing '5 licensed engineers, 3 mechanics and a maintenance worker'? With that kind of staffing level it must be one of the largest and well-staffed M3s in the country. Must be very crowded there, unless they aren't actually all there at the same time? Ah, the joys of advertisements.
DOC400, if you are really that worried about flying sans spinner then wait for the engineers to get a reply from Robin as to the availability of a replacement spinner. It was unfortunate that the factory closed down for four days as they had done that weeks' hours but that is the way they Robin work.
In future, may I respectfully suggest, that if you have a problem with what you have been told by the engineers responsible for the maintenance of your aircraft then why not discusss it further with them rather than asking all and sundry on a public forum?
This thread seems to have gone down the route of being another anti-engineer one which I don't think was probably the object of the exercise originally.
As for the rather aggressive rantings of ex-PFA BB renowned Mr TonyR: before one accuses someone of a sucking attitude, best you know whether or not they know what they are talking about.
As for MDareoservices - my how Glatton has changed since the last time I passed by! From a small, boggy farmstrip to a massive M3 housing '5 licensed engineers, 3 mechanics and a maintenance worker'? With that kind of staffing level it must be one of the largest and well-staffed M3s in the country. Must be very crowded there, unless they aren't actually all there at the same time? Ah, the joys of advertisements.
DOC400, if you are really that worried about flying sans spinner then wait for the engineers to get a reply from Robin as to the availability of a replacement spinner. It was unfortunate that the factory closed down for four days as they had done that weeks' hours but that is the way they Robin work.
In future, may I respectfully suggest, that if you have a problem with what you have been told by the engineers responsible for the maintenance of your aircraft then why not discusss it further with them rather than asking all and sundry on a public forum?
This thread seems to have gone down the route of being another anti-engineer one which I don't think was probably the object of the exercise originally.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
From: Enniskillen
Sorry smarthawke, but I thought A and C was a bit hard on whatunion without a good reason.
If you thought my post was aggresive then it must be as you seem to know so much.
I think you will find that I am not knocking any engineer but if someone keeps on telling us that, "if its all right for glider tugs then its all right for me" then I think they are wrong, and in this business the regulations do not accommodate a "well the boys up the road do it this way" excuse.
By the way smarthawake I see your even a more recent addition to PPRuNe than me.
Also after 30 odd years as fixer and flyer I would not stick my neck out and give DOC400 the OK to fly.
Tony R
If you thought my post was aggresive then it must be as you seem to know so much.
I think you will find that I am not knocking any engineer but if someone keeps on telling us that, "if its all right for glider tugs then its all right for me" then I think they are wrong, and in this business the regulations do not accommodate a "well the boys up the road do it this way" excuse.
By the way smarthawake I see your even a more recent addition to PPRuNe than me.
Also after 30 odd years as fixer and flyer I would not stick my neck out and give DOC400 the OK to fly.
Tony R
Last edited by TonyR; 29th May 2004 at 18:07.
Thread Starter
"Trust Me"
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
From: Egham, UK
"Most of them have a hoffman four blade prop"
And I don't, as you know. Until I get a definitive answer from Robin, it stays on the ground....
DOC
"In future, may I respectfully suggest, that if you have a problem with what you have been told by the engineers responsible for the maintenance of your aircraft then why not discusss it further with them rather than asking all and sundry on a public forum?"
"This thread seems to have gone down the route of being another anti-engineer one which I don't think was probably the object of the exercise originally."
Absolutely, smarthawke -what started, I assumed, as a perfectly reasonable query, has been totally exploded out of complete proportion!!
You will note that I haven't mentioned any names and I HAVE discussed it with the engineers, at length, I assure you! I can also assure you that I have no axe to grind with them and If I did, they would be the first to know about it. My goodness, you seem to think I've accused them publicly of commiting a heinous crime!
As a naturally concerned pilot of some 13 years now, sharing a wonderful piece of machinery with seven others, I'm looking for a definitive answer -no ifs, no maybes, no buts.......particularly since we have a new engine with a mere twenty hours on it.
Lycoming have referred me to Robin, of whom I am still awaiting a definitive answer.
DOC
And I don't, as you know. Until I get a definitive answer from Robin, it stays on the ground....
DOC
"In future, may I respectfully suggest, that if you have a problem with what you have been told by the engineers responsible for the maintenance of your aircraft then why not discusss it further with them rather than asking all and sundry on a public forum?"
"This thread seems to have gone down the route of being another anti-engineer one which I don't think was probably the object of the exercise originally."
Absolutely, smarthawke -what started, I assumed, as a perfectly reasonable query, has been totally exploded out of complete proportion!!
You will note that I haven't mentioned any names and I HAVE discussed it with the engineers, at length, I assure you! I can also assure you that I have no axe to grind with them and If I did, they would be the first to know about it. My goodness, you seem to think I've accused them publicly of commiting a heinous crime!
As a naturally concerned pilot of some 13 years now, sharing a wonderful piece of machinery with seven others, I'm looking for a definitive answer -no ifs, no maybes, no buts.......particularly since we have a new engine with a mere twenty hours on it.
Lycoming have referred me to Robin, of whom I am still awaiting a definitive answer.
DOC
Last edited by DOC.400; 29th May 2004 at 17:21.
Cool Mod
Joined: Apr 1998
Posts: 6,189
Likes: 0
From: 18nm N of LGW
One VITAL point above all else is that the insurance company may have it in their files, for that particular type of aircraft, by interpolation, that it does require a spinner in all forms of flight. Then, of course, all others opinions are invalid. Best check.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: Here and There
DOC 400, if you cant get an engineer to provide this information then DO ring the CAA, cause your insurance company soon will if you have any sort of incident.
Ken