From Hansard, 18th May...
Thread Starter
From Hansard, 18th May...
Light Aircraft (Noise Pollution)
6. Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): What plans he has to reduce noise pollution from light recreational aircraft. [173498]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Tony McNulty): Light aircraft have to comply with an internationally agreed noise certification standard unless they were on the UK register before 1980. This standard was tightened for aircraft certificated after 1999. There are currently no plans for additional measures to reduce noise from light aircraft, although we expect aerodromes to set, and to enforce, appropriate rules to minimise noise nuisance.
Mr. Key : Does the Minister understand how sorry we feel for him, given this can of worms with which he must deal? My constituents are pleased to put up with the noise of fast jets and military helicopters five days a week, but for two days a week and particularly during the summer weather, their quality of life is diminished by light recreational aircraft. Indeed, hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country will have their quality of life diminished by the pilots of some 8,000 light aircraft and, or course, of those "lawnmowers" that take to the skies, and which take so long to get across them. As part of his big conversation, will he please start a debate on the balance between the right of pilots of light recreational aircraft to fly in our skies, and the right of the vast majority of our citizens to have peace and quiet?
Mr. McNulty: I am sympathetic to the points that the hon. Gentleman makes. In addition to the certification standard and the general noise standard, there are considerations in terms of the planning framework and the other frameworks that need to be taken into account. However, I shall look into the matter further and get back to the hon. Gentleman.
6. Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): What plans he has to reduce noise pollution from light recreational aircraft. [173498]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Tony McNulty): Light aircraft have to comply with an internationally agreed noise certification standard unless they were on the UK register before 1980. This standard was tightened for aircraft certificated after 1999. There are currently no plans for additional measures to reduce noise from light aircraft, although we expect aerodromes to set, and to enforce, appropriate rules to minimise noise nuisance.
Mr. Key : Does the Minister understand how sorry we feel for him, given this can of worms with which he must deal? My constituents are pleased to put up with the noise of fast jets and military helicopters five days a week, but for two days a week and particularly during the summer weather, their quality of life is diminished by light recreational aircraft. Indeed, hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country will have their quality of life diminished by the pilots of some 8,000 light aircraft and, or course, of those "lawnmowers" that take to the skies, and which take so long to get across them. As part of his big conversation, will he please start a debate on the balance between the right of pilots of light recreational aircraft to fly in our skies, and the right of the vast majority of our citizens to have peace and quiet?
Mr. McNulty: I am sympathetic to the points that the hon. Gentleman makes. In addition to the certification standard and the general noise standard, there are considerations in terms of the planning framework and the other frameworks that need to be taken into account. However, I shall look into the matter further and get back to the hon. Gentleman.
When I see intolerance like this voiced by those who are supposed to represent a democratic and tolerant society, I feel sad about where our country is going. I don't ride a Motor cycle, but I don't care if somebody else enjoys riding them. I don't go to church but I support the right of anyone who wants to attend. Am I in a minority? I'd hate to think I am. My old Dad flew two and a half tours as aircrew during WW2 so we could enjoy the freedoms we are clinging onto now. Let's hope the 'looking into the matter', involves putting the question at the bottom of a deep dark drawer and McNulty forgetting where he puts the key!
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>>will have their quality of life diminished by the pilots of some 8,000 light aircraft and, or course, of those "lawnmowers" that take to the skies, and which take so long to get across them. As part of his big conversation, will he please start a debate on the balance...... <<
Take the political gas generator of a pr!ck up on his own point. Write to him and ask him to ban the use hundreds of thousands of all pervasive noisy, smelly lawnmowers first.
Takes my girlfriend effing hours to cut our grass with the Mountfield (Tm)
I take it he is pi$$ed off about Old Sarum's fairly protected situation now as an establishment of some historical significance so is venting his petty little spleen at aviation in general to ban it all across the Country ? What next, noisy tonic dispensers in the House of Commons bar ? The poor calibre and self interest lobbying habits of our MP's is a joke.
Take the political gas generator of a pr!ck up on his own point. Write to him and ask him to ban the use hundreds of thousands of all pervasive noisy, smelly lawnmowers first.
Takes my girlfriend effing hours to cut our grass with the Mountfield (Tm)
I take it he is pi$$ed off about Old Sarum's fairly protected situation now as an establishment of some historical significance so is venting his petty little spleen at aviation in general to ban it all across the Country ? What next, noisy tonic dispensers in the House of Commons bar ? The poor calibre and self interest lobbying habits of our MP's is a joke.
Is there an opportunity here?
Headlines like:-
- "Light aviators campaign for higher base to controlled airspace so as to reduce noise nuisance to general public"
or
- "Aviators safety evidence supports campaign against development on green belt land"
Might work in our collective favour?
G
Headlines like:-
- "Light aviators campaign for higher base to controlled airspace so as to reduce noise nuisance to general public"
or
- "Aviators safety evidence supports campaign against development on green belt land"
Might work in our collective favour?
G
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I find the naivete expressd here difficult to believe.
The MP concerned, who was elected to represent his constituents, is doing exactly that.
Most people do not fly light aircraft.
Is there nobody out there who is willing to acknowledge that light aviation depends on the consent of the (nb) voters down on the ground?
There is no right to fly over others' homes, only a privilege.
This kind of arrogance could do a lot of harm to GA.
The MP concerned, who was elected to represent his constituents, is doing exactly that.
Most people do not fly light aircraft.
Is there nobody out there who is willing to acknowledge that light aviation depends on the consent of the (nb) voters down on the ground?
There is no right to fly over others' homes, only a privilege.
This kind of arrogance could do a lot of harm to GA.
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UR
What a lot of nonsense. This MP is waxing lyrical on removing a fundamental freedom from us and this despite being regulated to the nth degree anyway. Where do you suggest we collectively adapt our behaviour further to accommodate those voters on the ground ?
Just because there are only 8000 of us doesn't mean our rights should be infringed. I meant what I said about Lawnmowers - nothing imposes so much on a summers day than those damn things munching their way through acres of grass for hours at a time at a Night Club decibel level. Start there and let me grow my garden naturally
What a lot of nonsense. This MP is waxing lyrical on removing a fundamental freedom from us and this despite being regulated to the nth degree anyway. Where do you suggest we collectively adapt our behaviour further to accommodate those voters on the ground ?
Just because there are only 8000 of us doesn't mean our rights should be infringed. I meant what I said about Lawnmowers - nothing imposes so much on a summers day than those damn things munching their way through acres of grass for hours at a time at a Night Club decibel level. Start there and let me grow my garden naturally
This MP seems to have gone off on a tangent. He has an issue with noise, which is fair enough - I tend to agree with him that the world is getting too noisy.
His logic is flawed though. He complains about what can only be small volumes of noise from private aviation from the little grass strip at EGLS, yet says that his constituents are happy to accept fast jets and helos from nearby EGDM and EGVP. Perhaps the fact that he had/has a strong connection to defence rather colours his stance?
The man clearly seems to have lost his sense of proportion, and as a constituent of his I can say that he has just lost my vote as well................
His logic is flawed though. He complains about what can only be small volumes of noise from private aviation from the little grass strip at EGLS, yet says that his constituents are happy to accept fast jets and helos from nearby EGDM and EGVP. Perhaps the fact that he had/has a strong connection to defence rather colours his stance?
The man clearly seems to have lost his sense of proportion, and as a constituent of his I can say that he has just lost my vote as well................
I also am a constituent of Robert Key's, and he has done far more for his constituents on many subjects than most MPs do. However, I do fear that he has picked a tangent to fly off on (no pun intended) with the wording of his question.
The problem at Old sarum is that there are one or two villages nearby who have a vociferous population who enjoy complaining, with their chosen subject being noise from Old Sarum circuit traffic. Many other villages around the airfield (including the one in which I live) make no complaints and appreciate the advantages of having it kept as an airfield rather than turned into yet another industrial estate generating vast amounts of road traffic and a monsterous eyesore.
All that Robert Key was doing was representing the views of a very small minority of his constituents. He may or may not agree with them, but if he did not represent their views he could be accused of dereliction of duty. It is then up to the relevant minister (to whom the question was tabled) to investigate. It is unfortunate that a question relating to a very specific complaint was worded in such a generalised way that it casts criticism on the whole light aircraft industry. Hopefully, this will be referred back as a local planning issue and can then be filed along with all of the other evaluations of this "problem" that have been made in the past. Long live Old Sarum as an active airfield. It is a much valued asset to this part of Wiltshire.
The problem at Old sarum is that there are one or two villages nearby who have a vociferous population who enjoy complaining, with their chosen subject being noise from Old Sarum circuit traffic. Many other villages around the airfield (including the one in which I live) make no complaints and appreciate the advantages of having it kept as an airfield rather than turned into yet another industrial estate generating vast amounts of road traffic and a monsterous eyesore.
All that Robert Key was doing was representing the views of a very small minority of his constituents. He may or may not agree with them, but if he did not represent their views he could be accused of dereliction of duty. It is then up to the relevant minister (to whom the question was tabled) to investigate. It is unfortunate that a question relating to a very specific complaint was worded in such a generalised way that it casts criticism on the whole light aircraft industry. Hopefully, this will be referred back as a local planning issue and can then be filed along with all of the other evaluations of this "problem" that have been made in the past. Long live Old Sarum as an active airfield. It is a much valued asset to this part of Wiltshire.
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Of course, he is probably oiling a squeaky wheel - how many people have written to him about noise from aircraft? Probably more than zero but not many. How many people have written to him saying the opposite? Probably zero.
However, if it is all due to one idiot in the air constantly and unnecessarily annoying someone on the ground who happens to have the MPs ear (or anything else) within reach, then perhaps someone should arrange a bit of education for the guy in the air. Remember the flying parachute preacher? He launched from there without permission and got done for it. There are some nutters around there.
I'm sure Old Sarum actually had a 'VIP' day once didnt they? - a long time ago - invited "the MP sorts" over and gave them the positive side. They certainly made a lot of different positive efforts in the past rather than sit back and wait for problems.
or... just thought - as his constutuents are in Salisbury, they probably heard that doodlebug that was flying around the Popham microlight fair (30 miles away) the other weekend - now there's something that will get mircolights banned!
However, if it is all due to one idiot in the air constantly and unnecessarily annoying someone on the ground who happens to have the MPs ear (or anything else) within reach, then perhaps someone should arrange a bit of education for the guy in the air. Remember the flying parachute preacher? He launched from there without permission and got done for it. There are some nutters around there.
I'm sure Old Sarum actually had a 'VIP' day once didnt they? - a long time ago - invited "the MP sorts" over and gave them the positive side. They certainly made a lot of different positive efforts in the past rather than sit back and wait for problems.
or... just thought - as his constutuents are in Salisbury, they probably heard that doodlebug that was flying around the Popham microlight fair (30 miles away) the other weekend - now there's something that will get mircolights banned!
Thankfully the JetBug is just one of Bens promotional creations, rather than a serious production microlight. Somehow I think it'd have a real problem getting through the microlight noise test if it had to......... 
Old Sarum is plagued by a small handful of vociferous protestors, led, IIRC, by a retired officer who purchased one of the new houses adjacent to the field.
The other problem is that it appears all light aircraft noise complaints in the area get directed at OS, yet there is a problem in the area from a Yak (I think) that insists on doing prolonged aeros at weekends. It doesn't fly out of OS as far as I know, I think it's based at the Bustard Flying Club at Boscombe, but they refuse to respond to requests for info.
Perhaps one positive thing might be to try and persuade this all party group to get the CAA to relax the rules on the fitting of silencers?
Old Sarum is plagued by a small handful of vociferous protestors, led, IIRC, by a retired officer who purchased one of the new houses adjacent to the field.
The other problem is that it appears all light aircraft noise complaints in the area get directed at OS, yet there is a problem in the area from a Yak (I think) that insists on doing prolonged aeros at weekends. It doesn't fly out of OS as far as I know, I think it's based at the Bustard Flying Club at Boscombe, but they refuse to respond to requests for info.
Perhaps one positive thing might be to try and persuade this all party group to get the CAA to relax the rules on the fitting of silencers?
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Silencers
Perhaps one positive thing might be to try and persuade this all party group to get the CAA to relax the rules on the fitting of silencers?
More information on silencers can be found here
They aren't cheap but they do seem to be fairly effective.
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Pilgrim has it sussed!
I live near Blackbushe and Farnborough:
1) Light aircraft are barely noticable despite living near a busy GA field. The duration of the noise is brief and occasional.
2) Jet aircraft are barely noticable despite living near a moderately used commercial field. Duration of noise is very brief.
3) Army Chinooks are very very very loud and occasional.
4) Lawnmowers ruin about 50% of my relax time in the garden. People with petrol mowers and small gardens are the scurge of suburbia IMHO. Once one stops, then the next one starts and persists for another half an hour. Grrrrr!
5) During the airshow...well that's another story. Can't wait!
However, seeing it on the flip side. Aircraft are noisy and living next to a runway probably isn't fun. With house prices being what they are many people can't really choose where they can live so some consideration must be given in the form of strict noise abatement routes. I think it is just that new aircraft are subjected to noise constraints. But it is obviously impractical to deal with older a/c.
If that were possible then it would be the best solution.
I live near Blackbushe and Farnborough:
1) Light aircraft are barely noticable despite living near a busy GA field. The duration of the noise is brief and occasional.
2) Jet aircraft are barely noticable despite living near a moderately used commercial field. Duration of noise is very brief.
3) Army Chinooks are very very very loud and occasional.
4) Lawnmowers ruin about 50% of my relax time in the garden. People with petrol mowers and small gardens are the scurge of suburbia IMHO. Once one stops, then the next one starts and persists for another half an hour. Grrrrr!
5) During the airshow...well that's another story. Can't wait!
However, seeing it on the flip side. Aircraft are noisy and living next to a runway probably isn't fun. With house prices being what they are many people can't really choose where they can live so some consideration must be given in the form of strict noise abatement routes. I think it is just that new aircraft are subjected to noise constraints. But it is obviously impractical to deal with older a/c.
Perhaps one positive thing might be to try and persuade this all party group to get the CAA to relax the rules on the fitting of silencers
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On the rare days that are sunny and visibility slightly down and I am free to be in the garden (3 logical 'ands' there), living at a VRP or Class D, I always get to experience the noise from the aircraft orbitting for 10 minutes whose pilot doesn't understand that he/she still wants a VFR clearance rather than the SVFR they actually asked for. I feel like calling the tower and saying 'I'd like to complain about the groundschool that pilot orbitting Romsey at 1500' has had before getting his licence -ask him who he/she trained with'
Well if I were in the microlight world, the last thing I'd want at one of my premier show-off events was that! It's a bit like having a parent open day garden party for admissions a private junior school and allowing the local pervert flasher in with his raincoat because 'he is, in his own special way, a part of school life'
Ah yes, 'Gorbachev's Revenge' The scene: The Kremlin, dateline early 1990s:
"Mr President, the West seems to have won, we no longer have the power to destroy their military bases'
"That may be, Boris, but we can still close down their small airfields, I authorise you to use the Yaks - start selling them over there and it's only a matter of time...'
Thankfully the JetBug is just one of Bens promotional creations, rather than a serious production microlight.
yet there is a problem in the area from a Yak
"Mr President, the West seems to have won, we no longer have the power to destroy their military bases'
"That may be, Boris, but we can still close down their small airfields, I authorise you to use the Yaks - start selling them over there and it's only a matter of time...'
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High Wing Drifter,
I also live between Blackbushe and Farnborough. I take great delight from being able to watch aircraft downwind at Blackbushe from my sofa.
I spent all day yesterday (Sunday 23rd) in the garden and about 10 light aircraft (mainly PA28 types) came over enroute to/from Farnborough, and once I even rushed in to grab my camera.
I completely agree with you about the jet noise from Farnborough. There's next to none and on the occassions I do hear it (like, standing in Farnborough B&Q carpark yesterday), I love it.
Perhaps I should write to my MP and tell him how wonderful light aircraft are...
TPK
I also live between Blackbushe and Farnborough. I take great delight from being able to watch aircraft downwind at Blackbushe from my sofa.
I spent all day yesterday (Sunday 23rd) in the garden and about 10 light aircraft (mainly PA28 types) came over enroute to/from Farnborough, and once I even rushed in to grab my camera.
I completely agree with you about the jet noise from Farnborough. There's next to none and on the occassions I do hear it (like, standing in Farnborough B&Q carpark yesterday), I love it.
Perhaps I should write to my MP and tell him how wonderful light aircraft are...
TPK
Interesting view Irv.
If I've got this right, then it's OK for a manufacturer/importer/agent to have a noisy Vedneyev (sp?) powered monster as an eyecatcher at a GA show, but it's somehow not all right for a microlight manufacturer to have a jet powered hanglider for the same purpose.
Seems odd to me...........
If I've got this right, then it's OK for a manufacturer/importer/agent to have a noisy Vedneyev (sp?) powered monster as an eyecatcher at a GA show, but it's somehow not all right for a microlight manufacturer to have a jet powered hanglider for the same purpose.
Seems odd to me...........
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I'm analogue, not digital or binary about it.
It's serious, a sign that a senior politician taking up the matter can't be ignored. He is senior, he's been around a bit. I just think we all need to be very careul to protect the future for our "hobby" or even jobs, and step back and realise the perception from outside. This helps so we don't make ourselves easy targets for politicians to show how they are reacting to 'public demand' - (public being one or two of the public). It's election 12 months remember! Look what happened to the sport of pistol shooting. (not my scene at all, but that doesn't stop me learning lessons from it)
With all the 'green' issues coming to the fore in the past 10 - 15 years, that was the worst time to release the Yaks. It was also the worst time to have had regulations which made pilots give in and take silencers off C172s imported from Germany just to put
a 'G' on the side. It's been the worst time for a lot of green issues.
You only have to speak to German small airfield owners and residents to find out where it could go when a very small minority living around an airfield add 'environmental-speak' buzz phrases into their numerous and tireless pursuit of a politician's ear, knowing he/she will everntually tire and do something to get rid of them.
In our minds we probably dream of a US model, but we forget we are all so cramped in for physical space and we do not have the same distances to travel on business which makes local communities need a local airfield for economic reasons in the US.
But as someone else inferred, the Yaks have one thing on their side - they br off quickly, leaving the people who love the sound of their engine reasonably satisfied they heard it, and those reasonable ones who don't have an ear for it just happy it flew away, but my point is that there are some people living around airfields who have little to occupy their time and are looking for a mission or crusade in their retirement. All of a sudden politicians want to show green credentials and suddenly noiser aircraft than before start appearing. (of course you don't notice quieter aircraft along with them!)
People are saying the jets are quiet - look how they've been forced to quieten down over a time period. Politicians know they need large jets and the Heathrows and Gatwicks - but they don't especially think they need light aircraft and the Pophams and Old Sarums.
A neighbour incensed by aircraft noise might be engaged in reasonable debate by others. However, noise is hardly a suitable word for describing the audio output from a doodlebug and this is all at micro speeds and low heights - and if I were exhibiting the level of airmanship I saw from one Doodlebug that day, I'd want to be flying something extremely quiet and stealth like at the time!
It's serious, a sign that a senior politician taking up the matter can't be ignored. He is senior, he's been around a bit. I just think we all need to be very careul to protect the future for our "hobby" or even jobs, and step back and realise the perception from outside. This helps so we don't make ourselves easy targets for politicians to show how they are reacting to 'public demand' - (public being one or two of the public). It's election 12 months remember! Look what happened to the sport of pistol shooting. (not my scene at all, but that doesn't stop me learning lessons from it)
With all the 'green' issues coming to the fore in the past 10 - 15 years, that was the worst time to release the Yaks. It was also the worst time to have had regulations which made pilots give in and take silencers off C172s imported from Germany just to put
a 'G' on the side. It's been the worst time for a lot of green issues.
You only have to speak to German small airfield owners and residents to find out where it could go when a very small minority living around an airfield add 'environmental-speak' buzz phrases into their numerous and tireless pursuit of a politician's ear, knowing he/she will everntually tire and do something to get rid of them.
In our minds we probably dream of a US model, but we forget we are all so cramped in for physical space and we do not have the same distances to travel on business which makes local communities need a local airfield for economic reasons in the US.
But as someone else inferred, the Yaks have one thing on their side - they b
r off quickly, leaving the people who love the sound of their engine reasonably satisfied they heard it, and those reasonable ones who don't have an ear for it just happy it flew away, but my point is that there are some people living around airfields who have little to occupy their time and are looking for a mission or crusade in their retirement. All of a sudden politicians want to show green credentials and suddenly noiser aircraft than before start appearing. (of course you don't notice quieter aircraft along with them!)People are saying the jets are quiet - look how they've been forced to quieten down over a time period. Politicians know they need large jets and the Heathrows and Gatwicks - but they don't especially think they need light aircraft and the Pophams and Old Sarums.
A neighbour incensed by aircraft noise might be engaged in reasonable debate by others. However, noise is hardly a suitable word for describing the audio output from a doodlebug and this is all at micro speeds and low heights - and if I were exhibiting the level of airmanship I saw from one Doodlebug that day, I'd want to be flying something extremely quiet and stealth like at the time!