Tips for landing....

[Randomtox]

I suspect (and fully accept) that the over-riding response to this question may be - ' practice' !!! But I'm interested in other peoples views. I'm a student pilot - VERY inexperienced as I only have 4 hours !

My question is this - at the end of my last lesson my instructor asked if I wanted to bring us onto base and then final (brave man !). I, of course, jumped at the chance. The turn onto base went OK - as did the turn onto final. At this point though it all got somewhat more tricky. The tip from my instructor was to pick a point on the runway and keep that in the same part of the screen. I was having trouble keeping the *runway* in the screen - let alone a specific part of it ! How do you guys manage to control the aircraft so precisely on approach ? Do you use rudder much more than you would in level flight or do you counter drift primarily using ailerons ?

Any tips gratefully received ! (might prevent another near heart-attack!)

[FlyFreeWbe]

I remember those! He lets you hold on until you're over the threshold and then one lesson, he'll pretend to be asleep so you have to land yourself!! Unfortunately for you, I can't really tell how I do it..maybe practice?? (sorry, had to!). Honestly, you get used to compensating for the wind blowing you across the runway as well as how quickly you're going down. I'd say, its mostly in steady conditions that you could get away with not using the rudder, but most the time you have to cause the weather in Britain is not stable! You'll come to that later on when your FI teaches you crab/wingdown crosswind landing techniques.

In the end remember, slow, steady movements especially when pitching up/down and > pitch controls speed > power controls rate of descent. What are you learning in btw?

FFW

corrections welcome, but thats how I do it!

[Randomtox]

FFW - thanks for the tips ! I'm learning in a DA-20 (Katana). Nice to fly - but I'm yet to be conviced that the undercarriage is as strong as they tell me ! Looks like it'll snap any minute !

re: slow, smooth movements - tried those the other day. I'm wondering if the rudder needs a LOT more input at low power settings (Stall is @ 40 Kias - so touchdown is at ~55 Kias).

cheers

[Skylark4]

Randomtox,
Don't worry. It will all come together eventually. You won't even think about it. You don't think about how to turn a corner in your car do you? (I'm not talking edge of controllability and gritted teeth here mind.)

Is that really how you land a trike, fly it on 15k above stalling speed? I don't know, whenever I've flown one I've been too busy trying to align to the runway to notice the speed. If stall is 40k, I would expect touchdown to be at about 41.

Mike W
Edit to add:- The slower you go, the more deflection you have to put in to any control to have the same effect. If he hasn't already done it, at some point the Instructor will demonstrate the stall. One of the signals that you are getting close is that the controls go 'mushy', you have to make a big move for small effect.
The Katana is a fairly slippery beast so speed control on the approach will not be the easiest. Nose down and the speed will rise quite quickly. Raise the nose and the speed will be quite slow to drain away, relatively speaking. You must be careful not to let the aircraft get ahead of you. Set up for a nice long approach and make small movements on the controls. Relax, take your time.

M

[Randomtox]

Mike W

You make it sound as though alignment is the most difficut part of landing ! (seems that way at the moment) Good analogy re: driving though ! Point taken !

re: stall / landing - I think my instructor is trying to avoid landing at on/near stall speed and building in a safety margin (he'll live a long time I suspect!) The stall buzzer goes crazy at about 50kts anyway - so you land with what sounds like an amateur bagpipe lesson as backing music !

[charlie-india-mike]

Tips for Landing


Tip 1: A good landing is one that you can walk away from
Tip 2: A great landing is one where they can use the aircraft again afterwards.


It will all come together in time with practice

C-I-M

[FNG]

Have a look at the current thread on airspeed (plus many older threads on landing). You should try to avoid adopting that "I'll just add on a few more knots for mum" attitude. Piling into the upwind hedge on a short strip tends to shorten aeroplane life, and may also affect pilot longevity. Otherwise, as already said, don't worry. You will be taught how to land and, although it's difficult, it's both achievable and fun.

PS: a useful link, for landing and much else besides.

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/landing....land-low-speed

PPS: I agree with what Aerbabe is just about to say.

[hope she doesn't edit her post to "FNG has agreed to give me a zillion quid, and his spotter notebook"]

[AerBabe]

Tip for landing?

Don't!

If you try and land you'll find it very difficult. Try and keep the aircraft flying & eventually you'll realise your wheels are down.

Obviously this requires a little tweaking or:
a) you may stall at several meters above the runway;
b) you will land perfectly on the hedge at the end of the runway.

Either will create lots of work for your instructor, which tends to upset them.


Editted to say I agree with what FNG just said. And he would have to pay me a zillion quid to take his spotter notebook.

[Whirlybird]

Have a read in your book on Human Performance - if you've got it yet - about acquiring skills. Basically, when you start, you're doing a series of separate movements; later on they all become one thing - landing an aircraft. You haven't had time to do that yet, so it seems like there's too much to do. It takes time...sorry, but that's all there is to it.

I was explaining the same thing to a helicopter student of mine at the weekend, who wondered how you could hover when you've got three controls interacting with one another with a lag in all of them. Well, you practise, and one day you just....hover.

One day you'll just...land.

[Saab Dastard]

I'm sure I've said it before, but "aim at the ground and miss for as long as possible" works for me.

When you get better, substitute "runway" for "ground".



SD

[M14P]

This gem from the PZL Wilga 2000 POH, Normal Procedures:

When near ground....................................Touch Down

OK!

[willbav8r]

Lower the landing gear first...........

[foxmoth]

If stall is 40k, I would expect touchdown to be at about 41.

Not unless you are very lucky or VERY good, most people will probably touch down 5 kts or so above the stall, the whole thing of actually "Stalling it on" is very misleading, even in a taildragger.
Randomtox -
What has been said up to now (relax, small corrections, try NOT to land) are all good, but I would point out that at the momment your instructor is probably only trying to give you as much handling as possible and will actually move on to TEACHING you how to land in the next few lessons - give him the chance

[FlyFreeWbe]

I see what you mean about the undercarriage..

Sounds like you've had most of your questions answered! Mind you, I agree with foxmoth, your instructor will no doubt be teaching it you soon. Solo comes up so quickly.. but then it will be LANDING and not LAN - then - D - then - ING. (Oh,and I've actually already used that website FNG mentioned before, quite handy )

FFW

[John Farley]

Do you use rudder much more than you would in level flight or do you counter drift primarily using ailerons ?

Try and relax on the rudder. If you are up tight on that it may be making it harder to sort out the bank angle needed with the ailerons.

At your stage you need only think of the ailerons, elevator and throttle as the things to juggle on final. If the ball is a tad out forget it for now.

When you have the runway in roughly the right place in the windscreen (as your man recommends) then that is the time to level your wings. Wait a mo with the wings level and if the ruway pisses off again adjust your bank angle again to bring it back.

Gradually each wander off should get smaller until one day you will wonder what all the fuss was about

[TonyR]

If you drive you will remember how it was difficult to judge the width of the car when learning, it seemed like a gap twice the size of the car was difficult to drive through.

Just give it another few hours, it will just click into place and you will do it without too much trouble.

I use an FAA logbook where you note the number of landings, I was just thinking about how few out of about 5000 odd have been really really "good".

[TheSilverFox]

Randomtox.

The best advice that I can offer is to change your Instructor quickly!

He should not be offering to let you fly the approach with only 4 hours training under your belt.

He is not doing you any favours. All that will happen is that you will not be able to stabalise the approach he will have to take control, leaving you finishing of your flight exercise on a low point, asking yourself the question "How am I ever going to manage this?"

As for maintaining your aiming point in the same part of the windscreen comment. How on earth can he expect you to achieve this? You dont yet have the required skills (remember you have only completed 4 hours training!). It would be far more beneficial at this stage of your training for him to demonstrate the approach and landing whilst talking you through the procedure.

Don't start questioning your own ability. Once you have been correctly taught to fly specific rates of descent whilst keeping the airspeed under control you will then be ready to apply this technique to the approach phase (not before!)

To be fair to your instructor, he probably believes that he is doing the right thing and is only trying to make your lesson more interesting for you, but as I mentioned and the top of this reply, he is not doing you any favours. The proof is reflected in the fact that you instigated this thread!

Good luck with your flying!

TSF.

[Keef]

Oh, I dunno. My instructor had me setting up on finals within a few lessons.

He insisted on two things: keep the nose pointing at the ground, and keep the runway in sight when on finals. At first, he followed through (or I did). One day he told me calmly that I'd done the last three landings all on my own - I didn't know! After that, it got easier.

For me, the critical bit is to land (a trike) on the mainwheels first. That probably means with the stick/yoke back in the pit of your stomach. The most heinous crime with a trike is to land on all three wheels at once.

[Finals19]

Interesting comments here with regard to touchdown points and airspeed.....

IMHO, isn't correct speed everything on the approach? As for the touchdown point and runway aspect in the windshield, that comes with practice. But with regard to touchdown speed, I question its actual relevance. Surely it should be THRESHOLD speed that is more important. Set up correctly (e.g. C152, assuming height is correct over threshold, the speed should be more or less 55Kias) As I was taught, it is then gradual power reduction to idle and focus on the far end, raising the nose to keep the aspect correct in the windshield. At that point you are in ground effect, so the airplane is going to perform differently to normal no? (to get a 152 down on the numbers, you have to start the round out and power off some 200ft horizontally before the touchdown area)....

Nothing too tough about it, just practice and it comes together more easily.

[TonyR]

He should not be offering to let you fly the approach with only 4 hours training under your belt.

I think my instructor had me flying the approach from the first hour, at least 2 every lesson.

Some of us were solo in less than 8 hours, when do you suggest we begin to fly approaches?

Tony