Ditching?
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Ditching?
Hi all,
This is just a query.
Imagine if me and another person set out, in say a PA-28 type aircraft (i.e. with only one door/hatch), across a large stretch of water (perhaps the Irish Sea) and then the unimaginable happens - the engine conks out!
Okay then, because me and the passenger (who also happens to be a fellow PPL) are good pilots, we have been routing along a Class F advisory route, and we are both wearing (uninflated lifejackets.)
Whilst I (as P1) trim for 80 knots, and try to restart the engine (to no avail), my friend, makes the mayday call and then we prepare for the ditching.
We can see some ships below us, and also a couple of oilrigs, and so we head for them. As we approach the water, we try to look for the swell of the waves (as mentioned in the manuals) so that we can touch down on the crest of one.
And now we are only about twenty feet above the surface of the water.
So what would we do now?
Would the passenger unlatch the door and then sit and wait for the impact?
Or should he attempt to get out, and maybe climb onto the wing - which would leave me (as LHS pilot) more room and time to escape once we make contact with the water?
Would it be a good idea for my passenger (who is on the wing and gripping on hard with his by now inflated life jacket) to perhaps jump in the sea at the last moment?
Or would we both remain in the plane until we 'land'.
The only reason I'm asking all of this, is because my friend and I are planning such a trip in the near future, and we have talked about what we would both do.
Cheers in advance for any replies.
Flock1
This is just a query.
Imagine if me and another person set out, in say a PA-28 type aircraft (i.e. with only one door/hatch), across a large stretch of water (perhaps the Irish Sea) and then the unimaginable happens - the engine conks out!
Okay then, because me and the passenger (who also happens to be a fellow PPL) are good pilots, we have been routing along a Class F advisory route, and we are both wearing (uninflated lifejackets.)
Whilst I (as P1) trim for 80 knots, and try to restart the engine (to no avail), my friend, makes the mayday call and then we prepare for the ditching.
We can see some ships below us, and also a couple of oilrigs, and so we head for them. As we approach the water, we try to look for the swell of the waves (as mentioned in the manuals) so that we can touch down on the crest of one.
And now we are only about twenty feet above the surface of the water.
So what would we do now?
Would the passenger unlatch the door and then sit and wait for the impact?
Or should he attempt to get out, and maybe climb onto the wing - which would leave me (as LHS pilot) more room and time to escape once we make contact with the water?
Would it be a good idea for my passenger (who is on the wing and gripping on hard with his by now inflated life jacket) to perhaps jump in the sea at the last moment?
Or would we both remain in the plane until we 'land'.
The only reason I'm asking all of this, is because my friend and I are planning such a trip in the near future, and we have talked about what we would both do.
Cheers in advance for any replies.
Flock1
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It is imaginable. I have had loads of engine failures and a ditching (though, ironically, not as a result of an engine failure.)
There is no question that the passenger should remain in his seat, firmly strapped in, otherwise he might be killed in the impact, especially if you misjudge and hit the swell leading edge.
The question of popping the door is more difficult. We certainly had a heart-stopping moment as the aircraft sank when we thought that we were not going to be able to open the door, but we did get it open with the application of considerable force. That is an argument for popping it.
The argument against is that it will affect the flying characteristics of the aircraft, and the last moment just before you try to judge it perfectly onto the crest of the swell isn't when you want a sudden swing to the right, and increase in ROD or decrease in airspeed.
I would suggest that you make your mate "door monitor". It is his job to familiarise himself with the handles and be ready to open it the moment you touch down. This is particularly important in a high wing type, when the fuselage will be submerged immediately.
If you have an axe you should make sure it is to hand.
Or, if you are now sufficiently scared...go in a twin
Timothy
There is no question that the passenger should remain in his seat, firmly strapped in, otherwise he might be killed in the impact, especially if you misjudge and hit the swell leading edge.
The question of popping the door is more difficult. We certainly had a heart-stopping moment as the aircraft sank when we thought that we were not going to be able to open the door, but we did get it open with the application of considerable force. That is an argument for popping it.
The argument against is that it will affect the flying characteristics of the aircraft, and the last moment just before you try to judge it perfectly onto the crest of the swell isn't when you want a sudden swing to the right, and increase in ROD or decrease in airspeed.
I would suggest that you make your mate "door monitor". It is his job to familiarise himself with the handles and be ready to open it the moment you touch down. This is particularly important in a high wing type, when the fuselage will be submerged immediately.
If you have an axe you should make sure it is to hand.
Or, if you are now sufficiently scared...go in a twin
Timothy
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Timothy
It has been variously claimed that the average time between engine failures is 3000-10000 hours, so if you have had "loads" of failures you either must have tens of thousands of hours, or have been very unlucky.
What has caused all these engines to fail? Do you fly vintage aircraft?
Re the original question, I discussed this recently with a liferaft manufacturer. They agreed with my suggestion (which I base on watersports experience) that if the raft is in the water and you are not holding it, it will very likely float away due to wind faster than one can swim after it. So one must hold onto it. I would try to get the raft out onto the wing and inflate it there, then both people get into it.
Having had a door lock jam in a PA28 (on the ground) I would definitely try to pop the upper lock at least before the impact.
What does one do in a high-wing plane??
The statistics don't appear to favour low-wing planes, which is suprising.
It has been variously claimed that the average time between engine failures is 3000-10000 hours, so if you have had "loads" of failures you either must have tens of thousands of hours, or have been very unlucky.
What has caused all these engines to fail? Do you fly vintage aircraft?
Re the original question, I discussed this recently with a liferaft manufacturer. They agreed with my suggestion (which I base on watersports experience) that if the raft is in the water and you are not holding it, it will very likely float away due to wind faster than one can swim after it. So one must hold onto it. I would try to get the raft out onto the wing and inflate it there, then both people get into it.
Having had a door lock jam in a PA28 (on the ground) I would definitely try to pop the upper lock at least before the impact.
What does one do in a high-wing plane??
The statistics don't appear to favour low-wing planes, which is suprising.
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It has been variously claimed that the average time between engine failures is 3000-10000 hours, so if you have had "loads" of failures you either must have tens of thousands of hours, or have been very unlucky.
The hightlights are seven failures in pistons, two in jets, most (but not all) have been in multi-engined aircraft. None have been "vintage" in the sense you mean. The ones in SEPs I have managed to either restart or limp/glide to a runway.
I have had far, far more engine failures than the average, and equally computers, cars and, above all, wrist watches all fail for me big time. I have been given physical and meta-physical explanations ranging from luck, karma, an intense aura, to high levels of static electricity to an ability to create a discontinuity in space/time, a talent which apparently I share with Yuri Geller...except he makes money out of the "skill" and I lose it every time anything breaks
Hey, pal, I don't know why engines and every other ****ing thing fails for me...I just know it's a pain. Go and talk to the guy who did the avionics refit in my Aztec and ask for an explanation as to why so much brand new kit failed within a month...or talk to the TBM700 pilot with wet shoes....or talk to the Citroen garage that has sepnt more in spares during my C5's waranty period than I spent on the car.
I just don't know the answer.
Timothy
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If I were you, I'd stay on the ground, sounds like fate has it in for you.
Oh, btw, I've also had two cockpit fires, two total electrical failures at night, two double radio failures in IMC...the list goes on and on...
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What about marriages?
Every time someone quips I am going to come up with another example:
I lost my data projector in the Tay, so it was replaced. The first one failed (undramatically) in a presentation to 15 people on its third day. Its replacement exploded (yes, exploded, with a mushroom cloud) on its third or fourth day in a presentation to 20 people.
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Timothy is walking proof of the total unreliability of statistics in any real-world situation.
I've got a bit over 500 hours, one engine failure, several "two green lights" situations, one loud warning horn moment, and one total electrical failure.
I've flown with Timothy several times, and have been there for several "events" which have resulted in engineering effort on his aircraft before it flew again.
He's never flown with me, but then I fly a single and that's risky...
I've got a bit over 500 hours, one engine failure, several "two green lights" situations, one loud warning horn moment, and one total electrical failure.
I've flown with Timothy several times, and have been there for several "events" which have resulted in engineering effort on his aircraft before it flew again.
He's never flown with me, but then I fly a single and that's risky...
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Tim,
Brilliant, just bloody brilliant!
You have made my day seem much better, and I suspect, for others too.
Take care out there, it does look like something has it in for you.....
Conversly, something's also looking after you it seems.
Brilliant, just bloody brilliant!
You have made my day seem much better, and I suspect, for others too.
Take care out there, it does look like something has it in for you.....
Conversly, something's also looking after you it seems.
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Not as spectacular, but I have a friend who cannot wear a watch of any type or description, as they all invariably stop within a day of wearing. She often gives people electric shocks, even without actually touching them. Sounds like thee and she have something in common?
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Keef
D'you know, I'd forgotten I'd crashed an aeroplane with two greens till you reminded me? It's a sad thought that my history is such that I forget the odd crash here and there!
futurshox
Sounds electric! Tell her I'll be under the clock at Waterloo at 6.00pm Thu. No need to wear a carnation, we'll be the ones looking at the clock rather than our wrists.
kokpit
My engineer tells me just that. I'm beginning to believe him!
D'you know, I'd forgotten I'd crashed an aeroplane with two greens till you reminded me? It's a sad thought that my history is such that I forget the odd crash here and there!
futurshox
Sounds electric! Tell her I'll be under the clock at Waterloo at 6.00pm Thu. No need to wear a carnation, we'll be the ones looking at the clock rather than our wrists.
kokpit
My engineer tells me just that. I'm beginning to believe him!
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Buy a lottery ticket your luck has got to change at some point.
I used to share a tack room with a friend and it was locked with a very expensive combination lock. Whenever I attempted to open it it remained locked. In the end we had to change it to the old fashioned key variety, but not before everyone else at the yard managed to open it except of course - Moi!
I used to share a tack room with a friend and it was locked with a very expensive combination lock. Whenever I attempted to open it it remained locked. In the end we had to change it to the old fashioned key variety, but not before everyone else at the yard managed to open it except of course - Moi!
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I wouldn't get your mate to jump out, unless you're after some life insurance money or something
I would try and find (or have ready before the flight) the frequency of the ops room on the rig. I dunno if they monitor 121.5, though I suspect they do. They could possibly pass wind and sea information to you if you had time, they also have fast rescue craft onboard so try and ditch near the rig if possible. You could always checkout weather buoys before the flight to give an idea of what to expect if the worse happens.
I would crack the door open, incase the fusalage becomes distorted in the ditching. Better to have the door fly open that get stuck. The arguement could be that this will reduce the strength of the cockpit, but judging by the flimsiness of light aircraft, I don't think this will be an issue (give me a composite A/C with a 25g impact cockpit shell any day).....
EA
I would try and find (or have ready before the flight) the frequency of the ops room on the rig. I dunno if they monitor 121.5, though I suspect they do. They could possibly pass wind and sea information to you if you had time, they also have fast rescue craft onboard so try and ditch near the rig if possible. You could always checkout weather buoys before the flight to give an idea of what to expect if the worse happens.
I would crack the door open, incase the fusalage becomes distorted in the ditching. Better to have the door fly open that get stuck. The arguement could be that this will reduce the strength of the cockpit, but judging by the flimsiness of light aircraft, I don't think this will be an issue (give me a composite A/C with a 25g impact cockpit shell any day
).....EA
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Thanks all,
So basically, we would both remain inside the aircraft, and then - just before landing - the passenger would unlatch the door.
Then we would vacate in an orderly manner!
Out of interest, how long would it take for the average light aircraft to sink? In other words, how long would we have to get out?
So basically, we would both remain inside the aircraft, and then - just before landing - the passenger would unlatch the door.
Then we would vacate in an orderly manner!
Out of interest, how long would it take for the average light aircraft to sink? In other words, how long would we have to get out?