why is UK GA full of whinging gits?
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why is UK GA full of whinging gits?
The recent thread about Kemble’s landing fees got me thinking; why is UK GA full of whinging gits?
Everytime someone wants to charge a half decent fee for a product or service all the skin-flint GA moaners get on their high-horse. If it’s not the” I want the best aircraft to be rented to be for next to nothing” brigade, it’s the ”I want my maintaince done for nothing, even though I pay the thick end of £100 an hour for my car to be serviced” people, or the “why should I pay to land my aircraft here” even though the fee only amounts to no more than a small round of drinks or a half decent bottle of wine, tribe.
Get real people, Aviation is expensive, get used to it or get out and find something else to do. Everyone has to make a living, even airfield operators. If we don’t start paying what amounts to a sensible fee to land at airports, or realistic hourly rates for our instructors or maintenance bods, why the hell should they stay in the business, if they leave or build houses on their airfield because they cannot afford to keep subsiding GA, who loses then? We do., and it’s no use banging on about the USA where everything is cheaper bigger and better; if you want to benefit from their economic model, emigrate.
We need to support GA, there are enough pressures against it (including I admit some aerodrome operators who seem hell-bent on destroying GA but that’s a small ignorant minority), without us closing our minds and pockets to those without whose services and facilities we would be finished.
Everytime someone wants to charge a half decent fee for a product or service all the skin-flint GA moaners get on their high-horse. If it’s not the” I want the best aircraft to be rented to be for next to nothing” brigade, it’s the ”I want my maintaince done for nothing, even though I pay the thick end of £100 an hour for my car to be serviced” people, or the “why should I pay to land my aircraft here” even though the fee only amounts to no more than a small round of drinks or a half decent bottle of wine, tribe.
Get real people, Aviation is expensive, get used to it or get out and find something else to do. Everyone has to make a living, even airfield operators. If we don’t start paying what amounts to a sensible fee to land at airports, or realistic hourly rates for our instructors or maintenance bods, why the hell should they stay in the business, if they leave or build houses on their airfield because they cannot afford to keep subsiding GA, who loses then? We do., and it’s no use banging on about the USA where everything is cheaper bigger and better; if you want to benefit from their economic model, emigrate.
We need to support GA, there are enough pressures against it (including I admit some aerodrome operators who seem hell-bent on destroying GA but that’s a small ignorant minority), without us closing our minds and pockets to those without whose services and facilities we would be finished.
Last edited by Ludwig; 7th Apr 2004 at 08:26.
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Ludwig,
Very valid questions raised IMHO.
I reckon that over the last decade or two, progressively, the UK GA industry has got itself stuck deeper and deeper in a rut where an increasing proportion of participants have no money but are still somehow trying to hang in there.
The only way to prevent an eventual collapse of GA (outside of farm strips) is to attract a lot more people who have a disposable income appropriate to the costs of this particular leisure activity.
But whenever this is suggested, a load of traditionalists jump on one's head and moan that they will be priced out of their hobby.
In reality they too would benefit from a substantial influx of money, modern equipment, modern methods, and modern attitudes, but instead anything new is almost universally seen as a threat.
It is interesting to note that most other leisure activities seem to be successfully regulating their participants' profile. Perhaps this is because, in GA, quite a few people are willing to work for next to nothing.
Very valid questions raised IMHO.
I reckon that over the last decade or two, progressively, the UK GA industry has got itself stuck deeper and deeper in a rut where an increasing proportion of participants have no money but are still somehow trying to hang in there.
The only way to prevent an eventual collapse of GA (outside of farm strips) is to attract a lot more people who have a disposable income appropriate to the costs of this particular leisure activity.
But whenever this is suggested, a load of traditionalists jump on one's head and moan that they will be priced out of their hobby.
In reality they too would benefit from a substantial influx of money, modern equipment, modern methods, and modern attitudes, but instead anything new is almost universally seen as a threat.
It is interesting to note that most other leisure activities seem to be successfully regulating their participants' profile. Perhaps this is because, in GA, quite a few people are willing to work for next to nothing.
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Ludwig
I am so pleased that someone else is prepared to put their head above the PPRuNe parapet and speak their mind. The last few times I did I was shot down so fast I didn't know what hit me. Be prepared for the disagreeing posts that follow soon and please choose to ignore them. Your point is valid and it echoes nationwide, not just in flying too.
The common culture is now for people to very much expect something for nothing and it really gets my goat. They whinge in the cinema about paying £3.25 for a tub of popcorn for their child and then go to Currys on a Sunday morning and blow £1800 on a plasma TV.
We have house wives whinging about the price of milk going up by 1 pence a pint (when farmers are busily going out of business) but are happy to spend £400 on some stupid pair of Jimmy Choo shoes.
The world HAS gone mad. It's no longer a case of "it's going mad". We have arrived.
My point is this. Kemble put their landing fees up by a few quid. Whoppee. How many people question whether their maintenance bill should be £1595 or £1592 at the annual check?
None.
"Oh well, that's different because the maintenance is my wellbeing on the line" some might say.
Bo***x. There are people employed for our safety at Kemble who will actually pull us out of our burning wrecks when our Jimmy Choo shoes slip off our brake pedals. These guys need to be paid.
I would like to add that I have absolutely NOTHING to do with Kemble at all. I call in there a few times a year (it's only a 15 minute flight from home).
If some of my money goes towards lowering the height of the urinals then that's fine with me though.......
I am so pleased that someone else is prepared to put their head above the PPRuNe parapet and speak their mind. The last few times I did I was shot down so fast I didn't know what hit me. Be prepared for the disagreeing posts that follow soon and please choose to ignore them. Your point is valid and it echoes nationwide, not just in flying too.
The common culture is now for people to very much expect something for nothing and it really gets my goat. They whinge in the cinema about paying £3.25 for a tub of popcorn for their child and then go to Currys on a Sunday morning and blow £1800 on a plasma TV.
We have house wives whinging about the price of milk going up by 1 pence a pint (when farmers are busily going out of business) but are happy to spend £400 on some stupid pair of Jimmy Choo shoes.
The world HAS gone mad. It's no longer a case of "it's going mad". We have arrived.
My point is this. Kemble put their landing fees up by a few quid. Whoppee. How many people question whether their maintenance bill should be £1595 or £1592 at the annual check?
None.
"Oh well, that's different because the maintenance is my wellbeing on the line" some might say.
Bo***x. There are people employed for our safety at Kemble who will actually pull us out of our burning wrecks when our Jimmy Choo shoes slip off our brake pedals. These guys need to be paid.
I would like to add that I have absolutely NOTHING to do with Kemble at all. I call in there a few times a year (it's only a 15 minute flight from home).
If some of my money goes towards lowering the height of the urinals then that's fine with me though.......
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The common culture is now for people to very much expect something for nothing and it really gets my goat. They whinge in the cinema about paying £3.25 for a tub of popcorn for their child and then go to Currys on a Sunday morning and blow £1800 on a plasma TV.
I think landing fees should be paid based on how polite people are at the aerodrome. If they smile and say please give them an extra fiver
Oh and by the way; Bose X, I'm pretty sure you can operate in the hangar as long as it is clean and the surgeon hasn't drunk too much!
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The only way to prevent an eventual collapse of GA (outside of farm strips) is to attract a lot more people who have a disposable income appropriate to the costs of this particular leisure activity.
I don't mind spending money on things if I feel that I'm getting something of value for my money. Why do people complain about landing fees? Probably because they don't feel they are getting anything worthwhile for the cash they're handing over.
why is UK GA full of whinging gits?
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why is UK GA full of whinging gits?
Because the UK is full of whinging gits! Its not by chance that the Aussies hate whinging poms.
The British enjoy a good moan. It bonds us all together - us against the evil Airfield owners, Maintenance companies, the CAA, the Government etc.
Pessimism is a sport in the UK. As an optimist, I'm happy to stand on the sidelines and cheer.
The British enjoy a good moan. It bonds us all together - us against the evil Airfield owners, Maintenance companies, the CAA, the Government etc.
Pessimism is a sport in the UK. As an optimist, I'm happy to stand on the sidelines and cheer.
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It seems to be the people with the biggest aircraft who gripe the most about landing fees, they must have known when they bought their pride and joy that it would cost more than the average puddlejumper to land, yet they still gripe. Kemble is a lovely place to vist, AV8 is the best around and someone has to pay for the new raised decking outside. We are talking peanuts to land compared to the facilities offered. It won't put me off visiting.
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Very simple really.....
Every pound we spend on equipment, books, landing fees etc is a pound that we don't spend on the thing with the big fan at the front.
Sadly, suppliers of these things have a mind set of " aviation is expensive, so if they want X, we'll bung a few nicker on the price" Go to maplins and see how much a headset & mic will cost, and then nip over to your local air shop and play spot the difference!!!
Some landing fees are worth the money, and some are not. But if like me you are trying to achieve membership of this exlusive club on a budget, with a young family, then if my landing fees go up a couple of quid a time, it can, very easily, be the difference between flying and not.
And in that case, you can charge whatever you like, it wont matter to me because the hobby I love, and the goal I have had since being knee high to a grasshopper will evaporate into thin air, along with the couple of grand that I've already spent on it. (You can imagine the nagging that will cause from 'er indoors)
I call it simple economics. Charge £30 to land and no-one will come. Charge £5 and they will beat a path to your door. Your overheads are roughly the same, but what would you sooner have, 100 visitors at a fiver, or 10 at £30?? Think about it!!
(Figures are used to prove the point and are not actual figures before some smart arse says something)
Rant over, thank you
Every pound we spend on equipment, books, landing fees etc is a pound that we don't spend on the thing with the big fan at the front.
Sadly, suppliers of these things have a mind set of " aviation is expensive, so if they want X, we'll bung a few nicker on the price" Go to maplins and see how much a headset & mic will cost, and then nip over to your local air shop and play spot the difference!!!
Some landing fees are worth the money, and some are not. But if like me you are trying to achieve membership of this exlusive club on a budget, with a young family, then if my landing fees go up a couple of quid a time, it can, very easily, be the difference between flying and not.
And in that case, you can charge whatever you like, it wont matter to me because the hobby I love, and the goal I have had since being knee high to a grasshopper will evaporate into thin air, along with the couple of grand that I've already spent on it. (You can imagine the nagging that will cause from 'er indoors)
I call it simple economics. Charge £30 to land and no-one will come. Charge £5 and they will beat a path to your door. Your overheads are roughly the same, but what would you sooner have, 100 visitors at a fiver, or 10 at £30?? Think about it!!
(Figures are used to prove the point and are not actual figures before some smart arse says something)
Rant over, thank you
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Not a lot of point in being able to fly if there are no airfields for you to visit.......
Aviation IS expensive, there are no two ways about it. You either have the money and fly or give up but for gods sake I wish people would quit bitchin about it!!!
Aviation IS expensive, there are no two ways about it. You either have the money and fly or give up but for gods sake I wish people would quit bitchin about it!!!
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Mono,
Says he with an oftentimes half cocked smoking Purdy under his arm
I am so pleased that someone else is prepared to put their head above the PPRuNe parapet and speak their mind. The last few times I did I was shot down so fast I didn't know what hit me.
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From my relatively recent observation of these forums, it seems to me that UK GA is full of dedicated, able, responsible individuals. Most of whom appear to take a realistic view of the differences in how GA works in most countries we know about around the world.
It would seem to be perfectly natural for this community of educated, and self motivated people to question, and challenge, the differences in training methods, pilot certification and taxation, that leads to the disparity in operating costs between not only the UK and USA, but also the UK and e.g. France.
There are many, possibly justifiable, reasons for UK GA to cost more than it does elsewhere, but imho it is not necessarily whinging to question why.
It would seem to be perfectly natural for this community of educated, and self motivated people to question, and challenge, the differences in training methods, pilot certification and taxation, that leads to the disparity in operating costs between not only the UK and USA, but also the UK and e.g. France.
There are many, possibly justifiable, reasons for UK GA to cost more than it does elsewhere, but imho it is not necessarily whinging to question why.
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An interesting exercise is to write down a breakdown of the operating costs of a typical GA plane, and then look at which bits one can do something about.
Most of them one cannot do a lot about. Contrary to popular belief, the costs of UK regulation aren't big in the overall picture. Fuel is a big item but G Brown will never go after the miniscule GA vote and remove taxation from Avgas.
The financial case hangs on aircraft utilisation. If it is doing say 500hrs/year then the cost to the renter is going to be very different to when it's doing 200hrs/year.
Likewise if you can build a group of 30 people around a £25k C152, the cost to the individual can be far lower than any rental rate.
Most of them one cannot do a lot about. Contrary to popular belief, the costs of UK regulation aren't big in the overall picture. Fuel is a big item but G Brown will never go after the miniscule GA vote and remove taxation from Avgas.
The financial case hangs on aircraft utilisation. If it is doing say 500hrs/year then the cost to the renter is going to be very different to when it's doing 200hrs/year.
Likewise if you can build a group of 30 people around a £25k C152, the cost to the individual can be far lower than any rental rate.