too soon for an IMC?
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Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Down South
too soon for an IMC?
Afternoon all,
Quck question:
Does anyone have advise on when to do an IMC after completing a PPL? Is it better to keep on going with the "education" or is it better to get 100hrs under your belt and then move on to it?
Thanks
FW
Quck question:
Does anyone have advise on when to do an IMC after completing a PPL? Is it better to keep on going with the "education" or is it better to get 100hrs under your belt and then move on to it?
Thanks
FW
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
A perennial question. There's no "right" answer - it depends on the sort of flying you want to do, and how much time and money you can devote to it.
There are two pieces that can relatively easily bolt on to your PPL: the IMC Rating, and the Night Rating (or whatever they are called this week).
They can be done in either order. My wise instructor, who taught me through the PPL, advised the Night Rating first, so that's what I did. I went straight on to the IMC after that. That worked fine for me, but I wanted to be able to go touring with an aeroplane and have some chance of getting there and back again.
Then there's aerobatics, and variable pitch props, and retractable, and tailwheel, and ...
There are two pieces that can relatively easily bolt on to your PPL: the IMC Rating, and the Night Rating (or whatever they are called this week).
They can be done in either order. My wise instructor, who taught me through the PPL, advised the Night Rating first, so that's what I did. I went straight on to the IMC after that. That worked fine for me, but I wanted to be able to go touring with an aeroplane and have some chance of getting there and back again.
Then there's aerobatics, and variable pitch props, and retractable, and tailwheel, and ...
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: E Anglia
IMC
This one's been done to death before>
I personally think I did the IMC too early (70 hours total time)
I was still having probs keeping altitude and what with doing the IMC in a different a/c to the one I'd trained in I found it a bit of a sweat.
On the positive side I did it on a residential course over 8 days in the UK in one of the worst April months for years: hardly ever needed the hood: geniune IMC most of the time.
And I passed so mebbee it wasn't all that bad.
And I've kept it current and gone on to do the FAA IR and kept that current too.
Sooooooooo I s'pose if you can keep altitude and can type convert pretty smartly, then go for it.
But do it in the UK not USA, and in as short a time as possible so you don't suffer from the 'two steps forward, one step back' syndrome if you do it over a long period.
Safe flyingCusco.
I personally think I did the IMC too early (70 hours total time)
I was still having probs keeping altitude and what with doing the IMC in a different a/c to the one I'd trained in I found it a bit of a sweat.
On the positive side I did it on a residential course over 8 days in the UK in one of the worst April months for years: hardly ever needed the hood: geniune IMC most of the time.
And I passed so mebbee it wasn't all that bad.
And I've kept it current and gone on to do the FAA IR and kept that current too.
Sooooooooo I s'pose if you can keep altitude and can type convert pretty smartly, then go for it.
But do it in the UK not USA, and in as short a time as possible so you don't suffer from the 'two steps forward, one step back' syndrome if you do it over a long period.
Safe flyingCusco.
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From: EuroGA.org
flyingwelshman
Firstly, one has to remember that to actually make reasonably full use of the IMC Rating (by that I mean fly some instrument approaches rather than just fly VMC on top here and there) one needs to have access to a plane suitable for real IFR and do enough hours IN THAT PLANE to keep reasonably current.
Most self fly hire planes are not suitable for flying IFR for real so that's the bit I would sort out first. In some places (my airfield for sure) it may mean buying into a syndicate.
Next, the IMCR itself will be a helluva lot easier to do when you've had enough hours IN THAT PLANE to be able to fly it easily in VMC, holding altitude to say 100ft and a heading to say 5 deg. Almost anybody can do this but the trick is to do it without completely knackering yourself within half an hour. If you can do that, and be relaxed enough to be ahead of the plane, know exactly where you are, then you are probably ready for the IMCR.
I think you need 10 hrs P1 post-PPL before you can start the training though.
Also get an instructor who flies planes for real
Firstly, one has to remember that to actually make reasonably full use of the IMC Rating (by that I mean fly some instrument approaches rather than just fly VMC on top here and there) one needs to have access to a plane suitable for real IFR and do enough hours IN THAT PLANE to keep reasonably current.
Most self fly hire planes are not suitable for flying IFR for real so that's the bit I would sort out first. In some places (my airfield for sure) it may mean buying into a syndicate.
Next, the IMCR itself will be a helluva lot easier to do when you've had enough hours IN THAT PLANE to be able to fly it easily in VMC, holding altitude to say 100ft and a heading to say 5 deg. Almost anybody can do this but the trick is to do it without completely knackering yourself within half an hour. If you can do that, and be relaxed enough to be ahead of the plane, know exactly where you are, then you are probably ready for the IMCR.
I think you need 10 hrs P1 post-PPL before you can start the training though.
Also get an instructor who flies planes for real
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From: Chichester, UK
I think you need 10 hrs P1 post-PPL before you can start the training though.
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From: Almost Scotland
I started mine when I had about 110hrs total time.
This worked well for me, and the IMC training and test were straightforward. The ground examination was very straightforward.
As others have said, on frequent occasions, the point is not so much to gain the rating, but to make every effort to keep it current. If that currency cannot be maintained, then have refresher instruction before using it in real IMC. Don't assume that the presence of the rating signifier in your licence immediately makes it possible or advisable to plan for sustained flight under IFR in IMC. There is a need to learn management of the aircraft itself, management of the real-time, non-flying tasks (e.g. communcation, navigational fresight, etc.), and management of yourself before being able to consider yourself safe. These matters can only be learnt by experience, gradually: though the learning of them can be, and should be, planned and thought through. The legal thresholds for currency are minima: real, practical currency requires IMHO more than those minima.
Again, as has been said, but it is worth reinforcing, to be able to fly accurately in VFR is very advisable before starting an IMCR or IR course. Also use of appropriate CBT aids, for example, RANT, is extremely helpful in complementing practical training in the air.
This worked well for me, and the IMC training and test were straightforward. The ground examination was very straightforward.
As others have said, on frequent occasions, the point is not so much to gain the rating, but to make every effort to keep it current. If that currency cannot be maintained, then have refresher instruction before using it in real IMC. Don't assume that the presence of the rating signifier in your licence immediately makes it possible or advisable to plan for sustained flight under IFR in IMC. There is a need to learn management of the aircraft itself, management of the real-time, non-flying tasks (e.g. communcation, navigational fresight, etc.), and management of yourself before being able to consider yourself safe. These matters can only be learnt by experience, gradually: though the learning of them can be, and should be, planned and thought through. The legal thresholds for currency are minima: real, practical currency requires IMHO more than those minima.
Again, as has been said, but it is worth reinforcing, to be able to fly accurately in VFR is very advisable before starting an IMCR or IR course. Also use of appropriate CBT aids, for example, RANT, is extremely helpful in complementing practical training in the air.
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From: Chichester, UK
....... to include 5 hours cross country P1
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Cambridge, England, EU
So what are you supposed to log as "cross country"? Log it if you draw lines on the map and calculate some times, don't log it if you do exactly the same trip without (on account of you know the area and couldn't get lost on that trip anyway)?
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From: Chichester, UK
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: UK
I started my IMC just over a year after I got my PPL.
I think it was perhaps a bit too soon, but it did 'polish' my flying.
I don't use it much, to me it's more of a safety net, to provide extra navigation (I prefer it to using a GPS) and to improve my flying skills.
But I fly with an instructor now and again to keep myself in practice if I have to use it. However, one CFI I know thinks you should use it very regularly if you are going to use it at all.
I think it was perhaps a bit too soon, but it did 'polish' my flying.
I don't use it much, to me it's more of a safety net, to provide extra navigation (I prefer it to using a GPS) and to improve my flying skills.
But I fly with an instructor now and again to keep myself in practice if I have to use it. However, one CFI I know thinks you should use it very regularly if you are going to use it at all.
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From: Kilmacolm
Hi A Fellow Flying Welshman,
I started my IMC training when I had a around 120 hours total time in a Tomahawk that I had flown many times before, it was in fact the plane I did my first solo in.
Found that basic attitude work including unsual attitudes were fine but when it came to holding on NDBs I totally lost the plot for an hour or two (I only really got to grips with the holds especially the entry when I did my FAA IR, thanks Martha King!!!).
As others have said as long as you feel comfortable flying the plane, that means you can hold the plane straight and level *with* spare mental capacity to do the other airmanship tasks then by all means start your IMC rating course.
Starting an IMC Rating course should be more than possible for the average pilot straight after your PPL, just look to the other side of the pond where some new FAA PPL's go straight into their FAA IR training under part 141 which doesn't require any additional time. And the FAA IR is by no means easy... the IMC rating is no where near as difficult or stringent as the FAA IR.
Just ensure you have the 10 hours P1 since your PPL issue to have the IMC Rating added.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
I started my IMC training when I had a around 120 hours total time in a Tomahawk that I had flown many times before, it was in fact the plane I did my first solo in.
Found that basic attitude work including unsual attitudes were fine but when it came to holding on NDBs I totally lost the plot for an hour or two (I only really got to grips with the holds especially the entry when I did my FAA IR, thanks Martha King!!!).
As others have said as long as you feel comfortable flying the plane, that means you can hold the plane straight and level *with* spare mental capacity to do the other airmanship tasks then by all means start your IMC rating course.
Starting an IMC Rating course should be more than possible for the average pilot straight after your PPL, just look to the other side of the pond where some new FAA PPL's go straight into their FAA IR training under part 141 which doesn't require any additional time. And the FAA IR is by no means easy... the IMC rating is no where near as difficult or stringent as the FAA IR.
Just ensure you have the 10 hours P1 since your PPL issue to have the IMC Rating added.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
Joined: Nov 1999
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From: Burgess Hill, UK
First you have to decide Why you want to do an IMC rating.
If it is just to improve your flying skills and not really to use it afterwards, then fine do it now. You will learn stuff and it will make you a better pilot. But you could also do a lot of other things, like aerobatics, a taildragger checkout, farm strip course etc, that would probably be more useful for your every day flying skills
If you intend to do a commercial license or an IR soon, then do it now, it will be good practice.
If you are going to fly a lot and in an well equipped aircraft for the job and need to get back and forth in the weather, then yes, do it now and make sure you stay very current. But remember that to fly in IMC in the UK a lot of the time, you need an aircraft equipped for flight into Icing conditions.
But dont do an IMC course if you think that after doing it, you can fly once every couple of weeks on nice sunny days, but now if the weather gets bad, you can get back no problem becuase of your new IMC rating. You might be lucky and make it, on the other hand, you just might fly into that hill.
If you are going to fly in IMC you need to be very current. And that means current in flying in nasty bumpy clouds- not just on a smooth sunny day with the screens up, they are two different things!!
Personally I didnt do an IMC rating until I had about 1500hrs (over 10 years) I only did it then as cheaper practice before doing an IR. Now I fly IFR every day (but with a nice autopilot and flight director) and still fly just VFR only in light aircraft. Even though Im flying IFR every day, there is No Way I would get into a club PA-28 and go off any fly an instrument approach to minimas without a good few hours with an instructor again!
If it is just to improve your flying skills and not really to use it afterwards, then fine do it now. You will learn stuff and it will make you a better pilot. But you could also do a lot of other things, like aerobatics, a taildragger checkout, farm strip course etc, that would probably be more useful for your every day flying skills
If you intend to do a commercial license or an IR soon, then do it now, it will be good practice.
If you are going to fly a lot and in an well equipped aircraft for the job and need to get back and forth in the weather, then yes, do it now and make sure you stay very current. But remember that to fly in IMC in the UK a lot of the time, you need an aircraft equipped for flight into Icing conditions.
But dont do an IMC course if you think that after doing it, you can fly once every couple of weeks on nice sunny days, but now if the weather gets bad, you can get back no problem becuase of your new IMC rating. You might be lucky and make it, on the other hand, you just might fly into that hill.
If you are going to fly in IMC you need to be very current. And that means current in flying in nasty bumpy clouds- not just on a smooth sunny day with the screens up, they are two different things!!
Personally I didnt do an IMC rating until I had about 1500hrs (over 10 years) I only did it then as cheaper practice before doing an IR. Now I fly IFR every day (but with a nice autopilot and flight director) and still fly just VFR only in light aircraft. Even though Im flying IFR every day, there is No Way I would get into a club PA-28 and go off any fly an instrument approach to minimas without a good few hours with an instructor again!
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From: Almost Scotland
Absolutely concur with Cubflyer's remarks.
It would be good to think, would it not, that undertaking the IMCR course would result, amongst other things, in an enhanced skill in judging, for example, when to fly or not to fly, or when to divert or to make a precautionary landing?
Perhaps this is one of the greatest values in the training, along with improved accuracy in handling?
It would be good to think, would it not, that undertaking the IMCR course would result, amongst other things, in an enhanced skill in judging, for example, when to fly or not to fly, or when to divert or to make a precautionary landing?
Perhaps this is one of the greatest values in the training, along with improved accuracy in handling?
