Lars
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Lars
The other post on LARS got me thinking. You know, I have never used it. Why? Because it was never brought up during my PPL training, nor my IMC training.
On the face of it, it sounds like a very sensible service to use. A few questions:
do people use it regularly?
is it an easy service to use?
is it like the US Flight Following, where you get handed off from ATC to ATC?
I fly in the Kent area.
Thanks
On the face of it, it sounds like a very sensible service to use. A few questions:
do people use it regularly?
is it an easy service to use?
is it like the US Flight Following, where you get handed off from ATC to ATC?
I fly in the Kent area.
Thanks
Why do it if it's not fun?
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do people use it regularly?
is it an easy service to use?
is it like the US Flight Following, where you get handed off from ATC to ATC?
I have to admit that I'm quite astonished that you never used this facility during your training. During PPL training, it seems sensible to introduce it, although it's certainly possible to get by as a PPL without ever using LARS. But for your IMC??? I know that Kent isn't the best-covered area as far as LARS is concerned, but flying around in clouds without a radar service, if/when one is available, seems ludicrous - and to allow someone to get through an IMC course without introducing them to LARS, ensuring that they can handle the workload of working the radio whilst flying on instruments, and discussing how/where/when to use the facility - unbelievable.
My advice to you would be to go out there and try it, on a VFR flight. Find out first hand what they can do, what they can't do. And then, make sure that researching the LARS facilities en-route is part of your pre-flight planning for any IFR trip you make. It's not difficult to use at all - the biggest problem, I'm sure, is simply the fear of the unknown.
FFF
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LARS is a fantastic service that I use where ever possible to get a RIS or FIS.
You can get handed from unit to unit, if they have you identified, but you have to ask and often you'll just be told to freecall, which isn't much of a problem, though it is nice to handed over.
Unfortunately the LARS coverage in some areas is very poor and is much reduced with the loss of so many RAF stations.
I recommend that everybody uses it, especially if in IMC OCA as it can be a life saver. In fact I wouldn't go into IMC without it.
I'm very concerned that you did an IMC course and have not used the service. Don't worry about using it, they are there to help and very rarely bite!
You can get handed from unit to unit, if they have you identified, but you have to ask and often you'll just be told to freecall, which isn't much of a problem, though it is nice to handed over.
Unfortunately the LARS coverage in some areas is very poor and is much reduced with the loss of so many RAF stations.
I recommend that everybody uses it, especially if in IMC OCA as it can be a life saver. In fact I wouldn't go into IMC without it.
I'm very concerned that you did an IMC course and have not used the service. Don't worry about using it, they are there to help and very rarely bite!
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KCDW - have to say 'Don't Know' to all your questions, as I've never used it, as the only times I've ever flown in an area where it would be available, it's been outside published hours and the service provider unit (military) has been closed down.
In theory, it would be a great service, but to be honest, I've got used to talking to the regional information services and find those provide all I've ever needed. Maybe it's just a question of not missing what you've never had!!
PS FFF / SAS - I've got around 190 hrs and have been flying for 8 yrs, have done an IMC course - none of my instructors has ever mentioned LARS!
[Edited to add PS]
In theory, it would be a great service, but to be honest, I've got used to talking to the regional information services and find those provide all I've ever needed. Maybe it's just a question of not missing what you've never had!!
PS FFF / SAS - I've got around 190 hrs and have been flying for 8 yrs, have done an IMC course - none of my instructors has ever mentioned LARS!
[Edited to add PS]
Last edited by Circuit Basher; 23rd Jan 2004 at 17:29.
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Much more likely to get a handover if flying "IFR".
Flying under Radar Information should be used in IMCR training - not that it makes much difference to the probability of hitting something in IMC because so many people fly with no transponder, with Mode A only, or with it deliberately turned off, so e.g. if VMC on top one gets all these warnings about traffic ahead but one can't see any of them because they are down below.
Fortunately it appears that very few of the no-transponder planes venture into IMC...
Unfortunately, IMV, the IMCR is often taught by clowns who should stick to their C150 on sunny days.
Flying under Radar Information should be used in IMCR training - not that it makes much difference to the probability of hitting something in IMC because so many people fly with no transponder, with Mode A only, or with it deliberately turned off, so e.g. if VMC on top one gets all these warnings about traffic ahead but one can't see any of them because they are down below.
Fortunately it appears that very few of the no-transponder planes venture into IMC...
Unfortunately, IMV, the IMCR is often taught by clowns who should stick to their C150 on sunny days.
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Just checked the LARS coverage, and in theory Manston and Southend have most of Kent covered.
Definitely will check it out next time I'm up. Presumably a TRPACER on introduction will suffice.
I have a lot of respect for my Instructor, so won't call him a clown
. However, would agree you would have thought it would be an obvious inclusion in the IMCR.
Definitely will check it out next time I'm up. Presumably a TRPACER on introduction will suffice.
I have a lot of respect for my Instructor, so won't call him a clown
. However, would agree you would have thought it would be an obvious inclusion in the IMCR.
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http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/DAP_ACD_6_Air_Rules.pdf
contains a comprehensive description of LARS and other ATSOCA.
contains a comprehensive description of LARS and other ATSOCA.
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CB
My experience has been completely the opposite: I've hardly ever left the circuit without calling a LARS unit for at least FIS. (Most of my flying has been within coverage of Brize Norton or Farnborough.)
My only anxiety with the service is that the stream of transmissions is often so relentless that I'll miss a call directed at me. Or alternatively, that listening too hard might distract me from the aviate and navigate priorities.
My experience has been completely the opposite: I've hardly ever left the circuit without calling a LARS unit for at least FIS. (Most of my flying has been within coverage of Brize Norton or Farnborough.)
My only anxiety with the service is that the stream of transmissions is often so relentless that I'll miss a call directed at me. Or alternatively, that listening too hard might distract me from the aviate and navigate priorities.
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Say again s l o w l y / KCDW
I thought it might generate a reaction
But isn't an "IRI" an IR instructor? The IRIs I know are all very good. But very few of them are involved much on the PPL scene. The instructors who teach most of the IMC Rating aren't IR instructors; they are mostly ATPL hour builders with an expired IR, old PPLs who got grandfathered PPL instructor rights with an IMCR, long retired ATPLs who got a grandfathered IMCR, expired CAA CPLs who got the IMCR because they have/had a CAA CPL, QFIs with an IMCR, or similar. The way an IRI would teach the IMCR is very different.
I thought it might generate a reaction
But isn't an "IRI" an IR instructor? The IRIs I know are all very good. But very few of them are involved much on the PPL scene. The instructors who teach most of the IMC Rating aren't IR instructors; they are mostly ATPL hour builders with an expired IR, old PPLs who got grandfathered PPL instructor rights with an IMCR, long retired ATPLs who got a grandfathered IMCR, expired CAA CPLs who got the IMCR because they have/had a CAA CPL, QFIs with an IMCR, or similar. The way an IRI would teach the IMCR is very different.
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You are correct in that an IRI is an instrument rating instructor, whilst the IMC rating can be taught by someone with the 'no applied instruments' restriction removed from their FI rating. I used the phrase IRI incorrectly, but it was to save a whole bunch of typing. 
I'm an IRI who also teaches IMC and I don't teach them differently, apart from a a bit of tolerance, but I like everyone to be as good as possible given the limitations of private flying.
I'm an IRI who also teaches IMC and I don't teach them differently, apart from a a bit of tolerance, but I like everyone to be as good as possible given the limitations of private flying.
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Correct me if Im wrong but and IRI is anyone that has passed the NO IF upgrade course of instruction - and also has an IR. If you don't have a valid IR you can't teach IR ratings only IMC, but if you have an IR you can do both. The core course is the same regardless. However, to teach approved IR, you must be further trained and tested on standardisation by the CAAFU department. In the old days, any IMC instructor if they had an IR could teach non-approved IR. Just there is not a non-approved IR available now.
As for not teaching students the LARS service. Shocking. This forms part of the sylabus. Either as a ground brief, home reading, flight example. Plus it is used as a basis for some of the questions in the written exam. Did this topic starter do his IMC in the states? (sorry can't be arsed to flick down the thread!) I note you live perhaps both sides of the pond?
As for not teaching students the LARS service. Shocking. This forms part of the sylabus. Either as a ground brief, home reading, flight example. Plus it is used as a basis for some of the questions in the written exam. Did this topic starter do his IMC in the states? (sorry can't be arsed to flick down the thread!) I note you live perhaps both sides of the pond?
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To teach the IR you also must have 800hrs I/F, where 1hr in flight is multiplied by 4.
To revalidate your rating, when you do your instructor renewal you also have to demonstrate a procedure as well as the VFR stuff.
To revalidate your rating, when you do your instructor renewal you also have to demonstrate a procedure as well as the VFR stuff.
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US Flight Following
Hi KCDW: Slightly off thread... my question is the reverse of the one you have asked at the top of this thread. I have flown VFR in the US, but thus far (on two trips) it has always been with a buddy in his aircraft (based in Connecticut) and without using the radio scarcely at all, except for CTAF when arriving departing small airfields.
Anyway, I plan to rent an a/c when in San Francisco area next month and in general have no qualms about flying in the US. But this thread has got me thinking: how do you go about gettting a Flight Following service? My presumption is either that I should call FSS (which I understand is generally on 122.2) or the nearest approach service (perhaps SFO or OAK in the Bay area)?
I would be much obliged if anyone can shed light on this.
Many thanks,
Andy
Anyway, I plan to rent an a/c when in San Francisco area next month and in general have no qualms about flying in the US. But this thread has got me thinking: how do you go about gettting a Flight Following service? My presumption is either that I should call FSS (which I understand is generally on 122.2) or the nearest approach service (perhaps SFO or OAK in the Bay area)?
I would be much obliged if anyone can shed light on this.
Many thanks,
Andy
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Aussie,
I was never coached in doing it, so I've only done it one way, that's when I'm up in the air. Not sure if I do it to the book - perhaps they give me some slack with my pommie accent.
All you do is ask ATC for Flight Following. You don't need to file a flight plan or anything like that.
It's optional on ATC's part whether you get it - dependent on workload. But my experience on the busy eastern seaboard is that they will provide it more often than not.
If they do provide it, they will ask you your route, and give you a squawk code.
That's it.
When you get to the limit of their coverage, you get told to contact the next area, and your details are passed on behind the scenes.
On contacting the next ATC, all you say is something like:
"Newark Approach, Piper N-1234A with you"...
and that's it. Lovely.
One issue I have had, is sometimes the details don't passed on! You then get a puzzled Controller, asking you what you want. Suppose this is a workload thing.
Also, interestingly, even though you are flying VFR, on occasion you are given vectors and alitudes to follow. I guess this is the equivalent of a RAS in Blighty, but (correct me if I'm wrong), you need to have an IMCR at the least for RAS, whereas in the US you don't.
As this knowledge is home grown, happy to hear the definitive from anyone else.
I was never coached in doing it, so I've only done it one way, that's when I'm up in the air. Not sure if I do it to the book - perhaps they give me some slack with my pommie accent.
All you do is ask ATC for Flight Following. You don't need to file a flight plan or anything like that.
It's optional on ATC's part whether you get it - dependent on workload. But my experience on the busy eastern seaboard is that they will provide it more often than not.
If they do provide it, they will ask you your route, and give you a squawk code.
That's it.
When you get to the limit of their coverage, you get told to contact the next area, and your details are passed on behind the scenes.
On contacting the next ATC, all you say is something like:
"Newark Approach, Piper N-1234A with you"...
and that's it. Lovely.
One issue I have had, is sometimes the details don't passed on! You then get a puzzled Controller, asking you what you want. Suppose this is a workload thing.
Also, interestingly, even though you are flying VFR, on occasion you are given vectors and alitudes to follow. I guess this is the equivalent of a RAS in Blighty, but (correct me if I'm wrong), you need to have an IMCR at the least for RAS, whereas in the US you don't.
As this knowledge is home grown, happy to hear the definitive from anyone else.
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Depends on where you are,
Approach is a good bet if you are coming into c30 NM radius of a Class B airport.
I tend to either request it from the tower at the departing airport, or request it at the same time as requesting airspace transition(even Class D).
You may find that you may get offered it, once you request a transition anyway.
Approach is a good bet if you are coming into c30 NM radius of a Class B airport.
I tend to either request it from the tower at the departing airport, or request it at the same time as requesting airspace transition(even Class D).
You may find that you may get offered it, once you request a transition anyway.
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Example of obtaining a VFR Flight Following service:
Pick the departure frequency from the Aeronautical Facilities Directory (AFD) for your aiport and give them a call once airbourne.
N48271:SoCal Approach N48271 With A Request
SoCal Approach:N48271 Socal Approach Go-ahead
N48271:N48271 is a C172/U 2 miles North of X request VFR Flight Following to Y at 4500ft
(The /U is your equipment, in this case a Mode C transponderis available).
SoCal Approach:N48271 Sqwawk 5842
N48271:Sqwark 5842
Bit of a pause.
SoCal Approach:N48271 Radar contact 1 mile north of x the X altimeter is 29.92
After that, it is usually continuous hand-offs to the next sector frequency with automatic clearences through Class 'C' airspace and specified clearances through Class 'B' if required. The will vector you about a bit if you are in the way and apologise for having to do it.
Flight following is more like handholding and it's bloody brilliant.
Personally I think a group of NATS/DAP/CAA people should all rent a bunch of C172's for a week, fly around the US for a bit and then come back and look at the hodge podge (that's a nice way of putting it
) that we have in the UK.
FIS
Pick the departure frequency from the Aeronautical Facilities Directory (AFD) for your aiport and give them a call once airbourne.
N48271:SoCal Approach N48271 With A Request
SoCal Approach:N48271 Socal Approach Go-ahead
N48271:N48271 is a C172/U 2 miles North of X request VFR Flight Following to Y at 4500ft
(The /U is your equipment, in this case a Mode C transponderis available).
SoCal Approach:N48271 Sqwawk 5842
N48271:Sqwark 5842
Bit of a pause.
SoCal Approach:N48271 Radar contact 1 mile north of x the X altimeter is 29.92
After that, it is usually continuous hand-offs to the next sector frequency with automatic clearences through Class 'C' airspace and specified clearances through Class 'B' if required. The will vector you about a bit if you are in the way and apologise for having to do it.
Flight following is more like handholding and it's bloody brilliant.
Personally I think a group of NATS/DAP/CAA people should all rent a bunch of C172's for a week, fly around the US for a bit and then come back and look at the hodge podge (that's a nice way of putting it
) that we have in the UK.FIS
