Night Flying in the UK
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: UK
Night Flying in the UK
This week I have just completed my Night Qualification.
However, following a little bit of research I am more than a little confused regarding the privileges I now have. I have heard that VFR flying at night is not allowed in the UK, yet all my flying as part of the course was done VFR. In fact I was told it is a specific requirement that it HAS to be VFR flying to gain the qualification.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_gasil2002_01.pdf
The above link to the CAA website states the following :
It then goes on to say
Which is fine so far, this is all IFR flying. However it then says
By definition the above is VFR flying, yet the first quote states that this is not allowed in the UK. So what is the right answer ?
My dual nav trip was at around 2500 feet, and we didn't use any quadrantal rules, and were VFR. The time logged in my book is not entered in the instrument section, just in the night section.
If I want to go for a trip at night at say 2000 feet, what rules do I follow. Can I go VFR or not ?
NH
However, following a little bit of research I am more than a little confused regarding the privileges I now have. I have heard that VFR flying at night is not allowed in the UK, yet all my flying as part of the course was done VFR. In fact I was told it is a specific requirement that it HAS to be VFR flying to gain the qualification.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_gasil2002_01.pdf
The above link to the CAA website states the following :
There appears to be some confusion about night flying rules and procedures. In the UK, VFR flight is not permitted at night. That means that every pilot who flies in uncontrolled airspace between evening civil twilight and morning civil twilight must follow the Instrument Flight Rules.
If at an altitude of more than 3000 feet above mean sea level (or any other notified transition altitude) and below 24,500 feet, the pilot should set 1013.2 hectopascals (millibars) on his altimeter and must comply with the quadrantal rule when in level flight.
.If below the transition altitude, however, the quadrantal rule does not apply. If the pilot remains below 3000 feet amsl, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, even the height above the highest fixed obstacle does not apply, although pilots must still comply with Rule 5 (low flying).
My dual nav trip was at around 2500 feet, and we didn't use any quadrantal rules, and were VFR. The time logged in my book is not entered in the instrument section, just in the night section.
If I want to go for a trip at night at say 2000 feet, what rules do I follow. Can I go VFR or not ?
NH
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
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From: Bournemouth
NH,
You are confusing VFR with VMC.
Your training flights were in VMC (Visual Meteorological Conditions), but they were in accordance with IFR (Instrument Flight Rules).
Your license restricts you to flying in VMC, but allows you to fly under either VFR or IFR as you choose, unless there are other reasons to force one of those choices on you (e.g. flying at night).
FFF
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You are confusing VFR with VMC.
Your training flights were in VMC (Visual Meteorological Conditions), but they were in accordance with IFR (Instrument Flight Rules).
Your license restricts you to flying in VMC, but allows you to fly under either VFR or IFR as you choose, unless there are other reasons to force one of those choices on you (e.g. flying at night).
FFF
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 60
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From: UK
All night flying in the UK is IFR.
Night Qualification is performed under IFR in VMC conditions (ie. 1000' MSA has to be obeyed and quadrantals when flying above transition altitude).
Transiting class D zone will require an SVFR clearance and 10km viz (unless IMC/IR held).
Hope this helps.
140
Night Qualification is performed under IFR in VMC conditions (ie. 1000' MSA has to be obeyed and quadrantals when flying above transition altitude).
Transiting class D zone will require an SVFR clearance and 10km viz (unless IMC/IR held).
Hope this helps.
140
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 453
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From: UK
It does help a little thanks.
I am having a foggy brain day.
So if I decided on a night trip at 2500ft I can maintain this altitude for the whole trip irrespective of heading due to being below transition altitude ?
Don't know why I am asking this as it's something I know but cannot remember at the moment, the embarrassment of it.
Going to get the books out when I get home. Ever had one of those days ?
I am having a foggy brain day.
So if I decided on a night trip at 2500ft I can maintain this altitude for the whole trip irrespective of heading due to being below transition altitude ?Don't know why I am asking this as it's something I know but cannot remember at the moment, the embarrassment of it.
Going to get the books out when I get home. Ever had one of those days ?
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
So if I decided on a night trip at 2500ft I can maintain this altitude for the whole trip irrespective of heading due to being below transition altitude
On the other hand, if you were above the transition altitude, you would have to follow the quadrantal rule, due to being IFR, which isn't the case if it had been a daytime flight. And, regardless of the altitude you're flying at, you must remain in VMC, due to the restriction on your license.
I know what you mean about "those days", but this seems to be a constant source of confusion, so rest assured that you're not alone!
FFF
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Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
NF
The answer is a cautionary "yes" in that you are not obliged to follow quadrantals BUT you still have to follow IFR rules regarding height (1000' higher than anything within 5nm) so you have to remain at least 5 nm from a TV mast or mountain.
The easiest way to do this is to use MSA, which is widely published, on the IFR charts and on some GPSs.
If you do not have the MSA, you can add 1000' to the figures on the topo and acheive the same result.
If you really are a "Northern Flyer" there are many places that you cannot fly IFR at 2500'
Will
The answer is a cautionary "yes" in that you are not obliged to follow quadrantals BUT you still have to follow IFR rules regarding height (1000' higher than anything within 5nm) so you have to remain at least 5 nm from a TV mast or mountain.
The easiest way to do this is to use MSA, which is widely published, on the IFR charts and on some GPSs.
If you do not have the MSA, you can add 1000' to the figures on the topo and acheive the same result.
If you really are a "Northern Flyer" there are many places that you cannot fly IFR at 2500'
Will
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 453
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From: UK
The penny drops !!!!
Thanks guys, it's all clear again now.
WCollins
The third quote in my original post suggests that even the height rule can (admittedly not a wise thing to do at night) be dispensed with ??
Not planning on doing much night stuff, but need it for CPL so decided to get it out of the way now. Have to admit though that it is some of the best flying I have done so far with fantastic views.
FFF
Oh for the rules and regs of UK flying huh, just to make our lives as difficult as possible !
Thanks guys, it's all clear again now.
WCollins
The third quote in my original post suggests that even the height rule can (admittedly not a wise thing to do at night) be dispensed with ??
Not planning on doing much night stuff, but need it for CPL so decided to get it out of the way now. Have to admit though that it is some of the best flying I have done so far with fantastic views.
FFF
Oh for the rules and regs of UK flying huh, just to make our lives as difficult as possible !
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
Given that night flying is IFR, why when a PPL is doing a night flight from an ATC field, he asks "request taxi and VFR departure to XYZ" ?
I once did what seemed right (with an instructor, when doing my night rating, as it was then called) and asked for an IFR departure and was told that is wrong.
When asking for an IFR departure from a ATC field, one is given IFR departure instructions before the takeoff clearance, and a typical PPL won't know what that is about. "After departure, squawk 3456, track to XYZ VOR and contact XYZ Radar on 123.45".
Just a small point. The field in question doesn't mind if you leave out the VFR/IFR word altogether.
I once did what seemed right (with an instructor, when doing my night rating, as it was then called) and asked for an IFR departure and was told that is wrong.
When asking for an IFR departure from a ATC field, one is given IFR departure instructions before the takeoff clearance, and a typical PPL won't know what that is about. "After departure, squawk 3456, track to XYZ VOR and contact XYZ Radar on 123.45".
Just a small point. The field in question doesn't mind if you leave out the VFR/IFR word altogether.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 255
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From: UK
IO540
There are two sorts of fields with ATC units, those within Controlled Airspace and those with just an ATZ.
For the airfields with just an ATZ, the situation is clear i.e. at night you can only fly under IFR.
For an airfield within a Control Zone it is more complicated as the flight rules that can be used depend on the commander's qualification.
Holding an IR. Can fly under IFR or SVFR (Special VFR).
Holding an IMC. Same as above.
Unrated. Can only fly under SVFR (with flight vis 10km or greater).
In the case you queried, if you were in a Control Zone, your instructor might have wanted to depart SVFR. Possibly because he/she was not qualified to depart IFR or wanted you to operate under SVFR because that was the limitation of your qualification at the time. If you were outside a Control Zone your instructor is just wrong. It might be custom and practice at the airfield in question not to announce your flight rules at night, since for the reason above there is no choice.
You mention the fact that a typical PPL will not know about an IFR clearance. I agree. I assume you are referring to vanilla PPL holders with no additional ratings. The point of the Night Qualfication to train students so that they can operate at night under IFR. The training covers this situation either via actual experience or via the ground training. For a PPL holding a Night Qualification not being able to deal with the situation you refer to ndicates a failure of the training received.
R
There are two sorts of fields with ATC units, those within Controlled Airspace and those with just an ATZ.
For the airfields with just an ATZ, the situation is clear i.e. at night you can only fly under IFR.
For an airfield within a Control Zone it is more complicated as the flight rules that can be used depend on the commander's qualification.
Holding an IR. Can fly under IFR or SVFR (Special VFR).
Holding an IMC. Same as above.
Unrated. Can only fly under SVFR (with flight vis 10km or greater).
In the case you queried, if you were in a Control Zone, your instructor might have wanted to depart SVFR. Possibly because he/she was not qualified to depart IFR or wanted you to operate under SVFR because that was the limitation of your qualification at the time. If you were outside a Control Zone your instructor is just wrong. It might be custom and practice at the airfield in question not to announce your flight rules at night, since for the reason above there is no choice.
You mention the fact that a typical PPL will not know about an IFR clearance. I agree. I assume you are referring to vanilla PPL holders with no additional ratings. The point of the Night Qualfication to train students so that they can operate at night under IFR. The training covers this situation either via actual experience or via the ground training. For a PPL holding a Night Qualification not being able to deal with the situation you refer to ndicates a failure of the training received.
R
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
RodgerF
Thanks for the clarification. The field is just an ATZ one so the instructor was plain wrong. And no, I've never heard any of the PPLs doing their night qualification doing the "IFR departure" bit...
I actually don't think it's wise to do night flight with the very limited instrument skills a fresh PPL has (because of the ease with which one can enter IMC at night, and the lack of available aircraft suitable for real IFR) but that another debate
I suppose it isn't a problem in practice because most airfields close after sunset and most PPLs with the qualification rarely use it anyway in real darkness.
Thanks for the clarification. The field is just an ATZ one so the instructor was plain wrong. And no, I've never heard any of the PPLs doing their night qualification doing the "IFR departure" bit...
I actually don't think it's wise to do night flight with the very limited instrument skills a fresh PPL has (because of the ease with which one can enter IMC at night, and the lack of available aircraft suitable for real IFR) but that another debate
I suppose it isn't a problem in practice because most airfields close after sunset and most PPLs with the qualification rarely use it anyway in real darkness.
