Ppl (ir)

[Foxy2004]

I'm looking to add an Instrument Rating to my PPL.

Searched the CAA website, with no luck, for the precise medical requirements. Everything seems to assume you're adding IR to a commercial licence and so need Class 1. Is it just Class 2 with a hearing requirement? Don't want to spend all time & money and find out at the end there's an unforeseen medical hurdle.

Would anyone who's added an IR to an IMC give a recommendation on where to do theory and where to do flying, how long it might take (I can do full time) and whether it's worth doing in my SEP or go straight and do it MEP?

Thanks!

[bookworm]

Is it just Class 2 with a hearing requirement?

Yes.

Would anyone who's added an IR to an IMC give a recommendation on where to do theory and where to do flying, how long it might take (I can do full time)

Suggest you visit (and join) PPL/IR Europe if you're not a member already. Lots of valuable stuff there.

and whether it's worth doing in my SEP or go straight and do it MEP?

What do you intend to do with the IR? If you're going to be flying SEPs I suggest getting the SEP-restricted version. These days you have to do a renewal in an MEP for the IR to remain valid on MEPs, so if you're not flying MEPs on a regular basis there's not much point in getting the unrestricted version.

HTH

[Rupert S]

i've been thinking of going ir post PPL lately and have been considering the FAA IR - may be worth thinking about.

[Keef]

The FAA IR is very attractive for a host of reasons - see the article in the latest Flyer.

[Charlie Zulu]

Very much agree with the above, the FAA IR is a lot more "convenient" for PPL's.

Study wise its a simple matter of obtaining a VHS or DVD course (around £150-£200) and then going through all of the questions so you know what to expect in the exam - the FAA publish all of the questions.

If you then wish to add a JAA IR to your JAA PPL then all you'd need do is the JAA IR theory subjects and a 15 hour "upgrade" course.

You'll then have both an FAA PPL/IR and JAA PPL/IR to use on N and G registered aeroplanes all around the world *and* will probably work out around the same sort of cost for a JAA IR.

Which ever route you decide to take then all the best, an IR is one of the most useful ratings to obtain. It is just a shame the JAA bods make it so difficult for us to obtain one.

Can't wait for a flying holiday around the States, having an FAA IR will make it even more predictable where I'll be staying each night, with the exception of any thunderstorms/hurricanes etc.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[PhilD]

...all you'd need do is the JAA IR theory subjects...

.. but isn't it the the theory that's the problem with getting the JAA IR. From what I know, and as an FAA IR holder, there are some differences in the flying test but nothing that any reasonable person could object to. It's the differences in the theory requirements that make the FAA IR so attractive to get in the first place, and are the major barrier to people who want to fly IR in Europe.

Before anyone points out the differences in renewal requirements (annual test vs experience), I know about that, but IMHO that is less of a disincentive to get the JAA IR than the initial hurdle of the theory exams.

[FlyingForFun]

Foxy asked:

Would anyone who's added an IR to an IMC

Therefore, I assume you already have an IMC (and possibly lots of hours of actual instrument flying)?

If that's the case, then CZ's suggestion of the FAA IR and then the conversion to JAR is a good one. The requirements for the FAA IR are for 40 hours, of which at least 15 must be with a CFII (I think - someone will correct me if the numbers are wrong, I'm sure). All of the instrument flying you've done so far - and that includes the couple of hours you did for your PPL, and it includes your IMC course, and also any instrument flying you've done since - can be counted towards the 40 hours minimum. So the minimum amount of training you'd need to get the FAA IR would be 15 hours. It's then a further 15 hours to convert that to a JAR IR. Total minimum training: 30 hours, which is a considerable reduction over the minimum if you were to go for the JAR IR from the start (55 hours, I think, if you don't have a CPL?)

FFF
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[Keef]

For the private pilot, the FAA IR is ideal and is achievable.

The JAA one involves more study and time in the classroom than someone not going for a professional pilot career would want to spend.

The arguments are well rehearsed in many fora, but the "Euroauthorities" aren't listening. I suppose they don't need to.

[bookworm]

.. but isn't it the the theory that's the problem with getting the JAA IR. From what I know, and as an FAA IR holder, there are some differences in the flying test but nothing that any reasonable person could object to.

I think it's more than that. The JAA IR flying training has to be conducted by a JAA approved school. The exam has to be conducted by a CAAFU examiner in a specially approved aircraft fitted with screens. The approvals mean that the number of places you can do the flying is limited, and the prices are therefore high.

AIUI, you can do an FAA IR in your own aircraft at the local airport. All you need is an instructor and some foggles. I'm not suggesting that the test is any easier -- from what I've heard I'll take the Nav exams over an FAA IR oral any day! -- but the logistics certainly are.

[Foxy2004]

The FAA IR sounds attractive, but you do need to reregister your aircraft to N reg, and can only fly IR on an N reg. Can a JAR pilot fly an N reg without a restricted FAA licence? You can't cost share in the Uk, which is a real nuisance.

You can however do the FAA IR in the UK..has anybody done that and with whom? I know doing in US is cheaper, but I'd rather learn UK airways and RT, not to mention our wonderful IMC weather.

[IO540]

I am pretty sure you can fly an N-reg on a JAR PPL, in UK airspace only though. The IMC Rating is still valid in an N-reg (the CAA have told me so in writing).

Getting an N-reg plane is by far the biggest hurdle for the average UK pilot. Basically it means buying into a serious "IFR" group, or buying your own plane.

[18greens]

A few thoughts....

Think about why you are adding the IR. For most peopel an IMC is more than enough.

Most people with an IR will not fly in less than IMC conditions(or even VFR conditions, 3K). The thought of 200' approach in a single piston may be out of most peoples comfort zones.


Most airways in the UK are out of reach of pistons.


If its a matter of having it because you have to have it then a MEP IR is the cogniscentis choice.

An IR does allow IMC in Europe and for a lot of countries an IR is required for night flying.

[IO540]

18greens

I agree that the IMCR does the UK adequately to get from A to B - unless you fly a deiced turbocharged piston or a turboprop. Or unless the top is well below say FL100 which is easily reachable by any decent SEP.

However almost anyone flying seriously is going to go abroad, and it then becomes plain very quickly indeed that an IR is needed to do planned flights. Just as the IMCR or IR is needed to do planned flights in the UK.

There is a weird issue with IFR outside the airways being permitted or not in France. There are differing views on it - I was told by a ATCO at LFBZ that it is not permitted. Others suggest that he was wrong.

[Keef]

I think the French thing depends on who you ask and how. I've filed proper airways routes in France, and been cleared "direct" to places 200nm away, with no reference to the airways system.

I think if Paris Control is working you, it's airways regardless of where you are (in practice, if not in theory).

[Flyin'Dutch']

Foxy2004,

If you follow this link you can see some further information on getting the FAA IR.

Need more info, send me a PM.

Ciao

FD

[Foxy2004]

So have I got this right?

An FAA IR can use his (her) rating on a G reg aircraft only in the UK, but on an N reg anywhere?

An N reg aircraft can be flown by a JAR pilot as PIC in the UK, but not abroad? Abroad, a JAR pilot can fly recording the time as PIC on an N reg only if accompanied by another FAA qualified pilot also being PIC in his own FAA logbook.

[Rupert S]

No. If you hold an FAA IR then you can only exercise the privelages associated with it when flying a N-registered aircraft, anywhere in the world. You can't fly with the IR if a G-Registered aircraft.

[IO540]

The privileges of an FAA IR RATING need an N-reg plane, anywhere in the world.

With an FAA PPL LICENSE you can fly a G-reg (UK only) or an N-reg (worldwide).

With a UK/JAR PPL LICENSE you can fly an N-reg (UK only) or a G-reg (worldwide).

If you have an FAA IR and need to fly real IFR in the UK, you can get the IMC Rating just by sending off a cheque to the CAA. But an IMC Rating also needs a UK/JAR PPL.

A UK/JAR PPL needs the Class 2 medical. An FAA PPL needs the FAA Class 3 medical.

The above is AIUI (as I understand it).

I have heard stories of pilots with an FAA IR getting permission to fly IFR in e.g. France in a non-N-reg plane. I don't know these first-hand but I heard of it in connection with aircraft delivery flights.

[bookworm]

An FAA IR can use his (her) rating on a G reg aircraft only in the UK, but on an N reg anywhere?

No, not quite. The privileges of an FAA IR can be exercised on a G-reg aircraft, but not for IFR flight in controlled airspace. In principle this should apply in any state's airspace, but it might be worth checking that the state in question honours the CAA's (automatic) validation of the FAA licence before relying on it. Many states have no real concept of IFR outside controlled airspace, so it may not be of much use outside the UK.

As IO540 notes, the CAA will issue an IMC rating on a JAA licence on the strength of a FAA/IR as a paperwork-only exercise. This would extend the privilege above in effect to allow IFR flight in classes D and E.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Many states have no real concept of IFR outside controlled airspace

So what do they call it when you're flying in cloud outside controlled airspace?