Gliders and VFR
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SS, thanks.
The finger wagging was stopped after somebody (allegedly?) was launched inadvertently while trying to swat a fly in the cockpit! After a national debate, it was agreed that the pilot should not accept the cable until ready to go, and having done so, launching is then at the signal of somebody outside the glider. The pilot still has a veto, of course, by virtue of the release knob.
Not only are there variations in law and techniques/practices between countries; there are some between clubs in the same country. For example, in the UK, it is generally the case that one pulls off an aerotow and turns left. Not at Cambridge, GC, however - they turn right. I am sure that there are other examples.
The finger wagging was stopped after somebody (allegedly?) was launched inadvertently while trying to swat a fly in the cockpit! After a national debate, it was agreed that the pilot should not accept the cable until ready to go, and having done so, launching is then at the signal of somebody outside the glider. The pilot still has a veto, of course, by virtue of the release knob.
Not only are there variations in law and techniques/practices between countries; there are some between clubs in the same country. For example, in the UK, it is generally the case that one pulls off an aerotow and turns left. Not at Cambridge, GC, however - they turn right. I am sure that there are other examples.
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Onan
thermals do not stop at cloudbase - cloudbase is where the atmospheric water vapour starts condensing, dumping latent heat of evaporation and hence the upcurrent inside a cumulus cloud is much stronger than the thermal below it which started the cloud forming in the first place.
On the basis of what goes up must come down, the air around the outside edges of a cumulus is likely to be descending
The lift stops inside the cloud at the top, where temperatures have equalised.
Pre and early post-war european glider pilots used to do heroic climbs in cloud (Derek Piggot did 16000 feet in an open cockpit T21 and Peter Scott taught himself instrument flying while achieving Gold Height (3000 metres height gain) in a cloud). The old wooden gliders were very forgiving and had fully speed limiting airbrakes if it all went to worms.
Cloud climbs in the UK are not so common these days because modern glass gliders can go past VNE even with the airbrakes out and their performance means that huge distances can be done without resorting to cloud climbs.
I have no detailed idea of the legalities (or otherwise!) in the UK but the fact is gliders do frequently operate at cloudbase (the sport would be impossible in the UK if they didn't!) in Class G, especially along those lovely things known as cloud streets, so if you are bimbling along in the spamcan, keeping to the VFR rules about vertical separation from cloud is a very good way of avoiding alarming meetings with the non-noisy type of aircraft.
thermals do not stop at cloudbase - cloudbase is where the atmospheric water vapour starts condensing, dumping latent heat of evaporation and hence the upcurrent inside a cumulus cloud is much stronger than the thermal below it which started the cloud forming in the first place.
On the basis of what goes up must come down, the air around the outside edges of a cumulus is likely to be descending
The lift stops inside the cloud at the top, where temperatures have equalised.
Pre and early post-war european glider pilots used to do heroic climbs in cloud (Derek Piggot did 16000 feet in an open cockpit T21 and Peter Scott taught himself instrument flying while achieving Gold Height (3000 metres height gain) in a cloud). The old wooden gliders were very forgiving and had fully speed limiting airbrakes if it all went to worms.
Cloud climbs in the UK are not so common these days because modern glass gliders can go past VNE even with the airbrakes out and their performance means that huge distances can be done without resorting to cloud climbs.
I have no detailed idea of the legalities (or otherwise!) in the UK but the fact is gliders do frequently operate at cloudbase (the sport would be impossible in the UK if they didn't!) in Class G, especially along those lovely things known as cloud streets, so if you are bimbling along in the spamcan, keeping to the VFR rules about vertical separation from cloud is a very good way of avoiding alarming meetings with the non-noisy type of aircraft.
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astir8,
I'm not concerned about the VFR spamcan driver because, as you point out, he'll be maintaining the correct separation from the clouds. But what about the IFR driver that's in and out of cloud, flying a quadrantal that is more or less at cloudbase, with a RIS from a LARS unit that the glider pilot is not in contact with (and without transponder, is not squawking either)?
I'm not concerned about the VFR spamcan driver because, as you point out, he'll be maintaining the correct separation from the clouds. But what about the IFR driver that's in and out of cloud, flying a quadrantal that is more or less at cloudbase, with a RIS from a LARS unit that the glider pilot is not in contact with (and without transponder, is not squawking either)?
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You have a point 140 ...
but then outside controlled airspace there is no seperation provided. RIS should not be regarded as protection but only as a guide. A responsible IFR pilot would or should not fly IMC without proper cover so the onus is on him/her. There should be no question of the IFR traffic having more "right" to fly IMC outside of controlled airspace than gliders as it is "free" airspace. True, in such circumstances there is a slight risk but as glass G is purely "see and be seen" IFR traffic really should remain VMC to be safe ... shouldn't they? I suppose this is also true of gliders but then such little cloud flying tends to be done these days that it's the risk must be tiny. Should it be banned? I don't think so ... if anything it should be IFR outside controlled airspace that should be ... otherwise the IFR equipped and able aircraft have preferance in ALL airspace to those who just fly for fun.
SS
but then outside controlled airspace there is no seperation provided. RIS should not be regarded as protection but only as a guide. A responsible IFR pilot would or should not fly IMC without proper cover so the onus is on him/her. There should be no question of the IFR traffic having more "right" to fly IMC outside of controlled airspace than gliders as it is "free" airspace. True, in such circumstances there is a slight risk but as glass G is purely "see and be seen" IFR traffic really should remain VMC to be safe ... shouldn't they? I suppose this is also true of gliders but then such little cloud flying tends to be done these days that it's the risk must be tiny. Should it be banned? I don't think so ... if anything it should be IFR outside controlled airspace that should be ... otherwise the IFR equipped and able aircraft have preferance in ALL airspace to those who just fly for fun.
SS
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It's not a case of IFR or VFR traffic having more 'rights'. The point is that the IFR pilot is flying by the rules. Unless there's an exemption in the ANO, the glider pilot when flying at an altitude above 3000' is not VFR when within 1500m horizontally or 1000' vertically from cloud, he is IFR also and so should be flying by the same rules. Class G airspace is not "see and be seen". I agree that a RIS has no guarantee of separation, but a RAS is not always forthcoming and the whole purpose of flying quadrantals is to minimise conflict. At the end of the day, rules is rules, and they're there for a reason.
The power pilot will, or course, give way to the glider. But he needs to see him first. Gliders are difficult to see at the best of times, and scudding around near cloudbase surely isn't one of them. Of course, they might be easier to spot if they're a mile away from the nearest cloud or a 1000' below!
The power pilot will, or course, give way to the glider. But he needs to see him first. Gliders are difficult to see at the best of times, and scudding around near cloudbase surely isn't one of them. Of course, they might be easier to spot if they're a mile away from the nearest cloud or a 1000' below!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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See and be seen is a requirement of flight in VMC - that's true regardless of whether you're VFR or IFR, and regardless of the type of airspace you're in.
The only time that this becomes difficult (ok then - it's always difficult, but it becomes even more difficult) is when one aircraft is flying in a cloud, and another is flying outside the cloud, but very close to it, such that there is only a very short time between the first aircraft exiting the cloud and the two aircraft coliding. This is why a reasonable vertical separation from clouds is required when flying under VFR (with an exemption to allow VFR flight underneath low clouds).
Personally, I wouldn't like to be flying near to, or in, clouds without using some kind of radar service if it's available. Doesn't matter what type of aircraft I'm in, or whether it has an engine or not. But that's just me. And anyway, it's a big sky, and sometimes radar service isn't available.
FFF
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The only time that this becomes difficult (ok then - it's always difficult, but it becomes even more difficult) is when one aircraft is flying in a cloud, and another is flying outside the cloud, but very close to it, such that there is only a very short time between the first aircraft exiting the cloud and the two aircraft coliding. This is why a reasonable vertical separation from clouds is required when flying under VFR (with an exemption to allow VFR flight underneath low clouds).
Personally, I wouldn't like to be flying near to, or in, clouds without using some kind of radar service if it's available. Doesn't matter what type of aircraft I'm in, or whether it has an engine or not. But that's just me. And anyway, it's a big sky, and sometimes radar service isn't available.
FFF
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What I meant is NO seperation is provided outside controlled airspace ... RIS is INFORMATION and RAS is ADVISORY and with both it's only between participating IFR traffic ... note NO SEPERATION IS PROVIDED. Therefore flying IFR under IMC conditions in class G airspace will always hold a certain amount of risk. It is up to the IFR pilot to decide if he feels "lucky".
Perhaps one of our ATC members could help clarify this???
SS
Perhaps one of our ATC members could help clarify this???
SS
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The only time, usually, that a glider would be climbing in cloud (other than in wave and very high) would be in cumulus cloud with quite a lot of instability and lots of vertical extent - hence the lift.
I, for one, wouldn't want to go bimbling through turbulent cumulus in my spam can if I could avoid it (and I can't think of a reason why I couldn't).
As someone mentioned earlier, it's all about risk assessment - and enjoying yourself. Oh, and most glider pilots wear parachutes. So I guess the best bet would be to avoid the "risky" bit of the airspace, or wear a parachute, or in my case fly a 22 ton jet with an ejection seat.
Happy flying.
Reichman
I, for one, wouldn't want to go bimbling through turbulent cumulus in my spam can if I could avoid it (and I can't think of a reason why I couldn't).
As someone mentioned earlier, it's all about risk assessment - and enjoying yourself. Oh, and most glider pilots wear parachutes. So I guess the best bet would be to avoid the "risky" bit of the airspace, or wear a parachute, or in my case fly a 22 ton jet with an ejection seat.
Happy flying.
Reichman
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I see a hoary old chestnut here again.
I often fly IFR in Class G - when the vis or cloud isn't suitable for VFR. It's not "see and be seen", because you can't see a lot inside a cloud.
But how many accidents have there been (ever) in class G between any two flying machines flying in IFR/IMC?
Hint: you'll be a long time looking to find one.
I often fly IFR in Class G - when the vis or cloud isn't suitable for VFR. It's not "see and be seen", because you can't see a lot inside a cloud.
But how many accidents have there been (ever) in class G between any two flying machines flying in IFR/IMC?
Hint: you'll be a long time looking to find one.
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I think the point is less whether you you are likely to meet another aircraft if you fly in IMC but rather is it legal to do so. Now, I'm not that familiar with glider rules, and I haven't had a chance to check the reference that chrisN gave, but for powered aircraft it's quite simple - any aircraft can fly IFR in class G airspace (as long as it's suitably equiped and the pilot is suitably qualified). It's mandatory to do so in IMC (i.e. if the weather is anything other than VMC) and at night (there being no VFR at night in the UK).
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Spitoon,
I'm pretty sure even a basic PPl can fly IFR, what they can't do is fly in IMC.
When flying IFR you are following a set of rules and procedures - it has nothing to do with whether you can see out of the window or not...!
Kingy
I'm pretty sure even a basic PPl can fly IFR, what they can't do is fly in IMC.
When flying IFR you are following a set of rules and procedures - it has nothing to do with whether you can see out of the window or not...!
Kingy
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As no-one else will be bothered to look up the ANO, I have had a peek and copied out the sections below.
Unless somebody can demonstrate either from these or elsewhere that a glider pilot cannot fly in cloud in class G, it seems to me that the exemptions highlighted * - - - * (my markings) make the point about the difference between a PPL with no other ratings in a powered aircraft, and a glider pilot in a glider.
Chris N.
===============
3 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall not fly in or over the United Kingdom unless
. . . (it then lists exception to the rule that you can't fly, including registration) . . . etc
* (2) (a) A glider may fly unregistered *, and shall be deemed to be registered in the United
Kingdom for the purposes of articles 14, 15, 21 and 43 of this Order, on any flight
which:
(i) begins and ends in the United Kingdom without passing over any other
country, etc
PART III AIRWORTHINESS AND EQUIPMENT OF AIRCRAFT
Certificate of airworthiness to be in force
8 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall not fly unless there is in force in respect
thereof a certificate of airworthiness duly issued or rendered valid under the law of
the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator, and any
conditions subject to which the certificate was issued or rendered valid are complied
with.
* (2) The foregoing prohibition shall not apply to flights, beginning and ending in the United
Kingdom without passing over any other country, of:
(a) a glider, * if it is not being used for the public transport of passengers or aerial work
other than aerial work which consists of the giving of instruction in flying or the
conducting of flying tests in a glider owned or operated by a flying club of which
the person giving the instruction or conducting the test and the person receiving
the instruction or undergoing the test
PART IV AIRCRAFT CREW AND LICENSING
Composition of crew of aircraft
20 (1) An aircraft shall not fly unless it carries a flight crew of the number and description
required by the law of the country in which it is registered.
Members of flight crew – requirement for licence
21 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight
crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an
appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order
* (9) This article shall not require a licence to be held by a person by reason of his acting
as a member of the flight crew of a glider * unless [certain conditions not relevant to this discussion]:
Interpretation
129 (1) In this Order: . . . . .
* 'Glider' means:
(a) a non-power-driven heavier-than-air aircraft, deriving its lift in flight chiefly from
aerodynamic reactions on surfaces which remain fixed under given conditions of
flight; and
(b) a self-sustaining glider;
and a reference in this Order to a glider shall include a reference to a self-sustaining
glider; [ ANO as amended by SI 2003/777]
'Instrument Flight Rules' means Instrument Flight Rules prescribed by the Rules of
the Air;
'Instrument Meteorological Conditions' means weather precluding flight in
compliance with the Visual Flight Rules;
SCHEDULE 8 Articles 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26
Flight Crew of Aircraft – Licences Ratings and Qualifications
PART A – LICENCES
Section 1 – United Kingdom Licences
Minimum age, period of validity, privileges
1 AEROPLANE PILOTS
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age – 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of the licence shall be entitled to fly as pilot in
command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or
otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
(c) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
of such an aeroplane:
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than
3 km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10
km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the
purpose of this subparagraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface.
(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his
licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplane).
(e) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane), fly as
pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class A, B or C airspace
in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.
(f) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances
which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.
=================================================
Unless somebody can demonstrate either from these or elsewhere that a glider pilot cannot fly in cloud in class G, it seems to me that the exemptions highlighted * - - - * (my markings) make the point about the difference between a PPL with no other ratings in a powered aircraft, and a glider pilot in a glider.
Chris N.
===============
3 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall not fly in or over the United Kingdom unless
. . . (it then lists exception to the rule that you can't fly, including registration) . . . etc
* (2) (a) A glider may fly unregistered *, and shall be deemed to be registered in the United
Kingdom for the purposes of articles 14, 15, 21 and 43 of this Order, on any flight
which:
(i) begins and ends in the United Kingdom without passing over any other
country, etc
PART III AIRWORTHINESS AND EQUIPMENT OF AIRCRAFT
Certificate of airworthiness to be in force
8 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall not fly unless there is in force in respect
thereof a certificate of airworthiness duly issued or rendered valid under the law of
the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator, and any
conditions subject to which the certificate was issued or rendered valid are complied
with.
* (2) The foregoing prohibition shall not apply to flights, beginning and ending in the United
Kingdom without passing over any other country, of:
(a) a glider, * if it is not being used for the public transport of passengers or aerial work
other than aerial work which consists of the giving of instruction in flying or the
conducting of flying tests in a glider owned or operated by a flying club of which
the person giving the instruction or conducting the test and the person receiving
the instruction or undergoing the test
PART IV AIRCRAFT CREW AND LICENSING
Composition of crew of aircraft
20 (1) An aircraft shall not fly unless it carries a flight crew of the number and description
required by the law of the country in which it is registered.
Members of flight crew – requirement for licence
21 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight
crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an
appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order
* (9) This article shall not require a licence to be held by a person by reason of his acting
as a member of the flight crew of a glider * unless [certain conditions not relevant to this discussion]:
Interpretation
129 (1) In this Order: . . . . .
* 'Glider' means:
(a) a non-power-driven heavier-than-air aircraft, deriving its lift in flight chiefly from
aerodynamic reactions on surfaces which remain fixed under given conditions of
flight; and
(b) a self-sustaining glider;
and a reference in this Order to a glider shall include a reference to a self-sustaining
glider; [ ANO as amended by SI 2003/777]
'Instrument Flight Rules' means Instrument Flight Rules prescribed by the Rules of
the Air;
'Instrument Meteorological Conditions' means weather precluding flight in
compliance with the Visual Flight Rules;
SCHEDULE 8 Articles 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26
Flight Crew of Aircraft – Licences Ratings and Qualifications
PART A – LICENCES
Section 1 – United Kingdom Licences
Minimum age, period of validity, privileges
1 AEROPLANE PILOTS
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age – 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of the licence shall be entitled to fly as pilot in
command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or
otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
(c) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
of such an aeroplane:
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than
3 km;
(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10
km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the
purpose of this subparagraph; or
(iii) out of sight of the surface.
(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his
licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplane).
(e) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane), fly as
pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class A, B or C airspace
in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.
(f) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances
which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.
=================================================
Thread Starter
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'Instrument Flight Rules' means Instrument Flight Rules prescribed by the Rules of
the Air;
'Instrument Meteorological Conditions' means weather precluding flight in
compliance with the Visual Flight Rules;
the Air;
'Instrument Meteorological Conditions' means weather precluding flight in
compliance with the Visual Flight Rules;
I'm not suggesting that gliders are not permitted to fly in or near to clouds. I just can't see how flying round in circles when thermalling (when above 3000' and within 1000' of cloud) is flight in accordance with IFR unless there's an exemption.
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140Cherokee, then I suggest you ask either the CAA or an aviation lawyer how they interpret it so, because they do.
My understanding, though I am not a lawyer, is that the ANO bans flying in general, then lists certain permitted exceptions. The passages I marked show that gliders are exempt from registration and Cof A, and their pilots are exempt from licensing.
Power planes and their pilots are not so exempted, and furthermore the pilots, if having only a PPL with no other ratings, cannot fly in cloud. With IMC or IR they can, in differing degrees.
My understanding, though I am not a lawyer, is that the ANO bans flying in general, then lists certain permitted exceptions. The passages I marked show that gliders are exempt from registration and Cof A, and their pilots are exempt from licensing.
Power planes and their pilots are not so exempted, and furthermore the pilots, if having only a PPL with no other ratings, cannot fly in cloud. With IMC or IR they can, in differing degrees.
I just can't see how flying round in circles when thermalling (when above 3000' and within 1000' of cloud) is flight in accordance with IFR
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Try the following extract from Laws and Rules -
In IMC conditions outside controlled airspace above 3,000ft power aircraft can be expected to be flying according to the quadrantal height rule. "then goes on to describe the rule and also refers to flight above FL245"
NOTE - SINCE GLIDERS ARE ALWAYS EITHER CLIMBING OR DESCENDING AND NEVER IN STEADY LEVEL CRUISING FLIGHT, THE "QUADRANTAL RULE" IS IRRELEVANT TO THEM. THERE ARE THERFORE NO SPECIAL RULES FOR IFR FLIGHT BY GLIDERS OUTSIDE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE AT ANY HEIGHT EXCEPT FOR MINIMUM HEIGHT SPECIFIED IN RULE 29 (1000FT MIN ABOVE HIGHEST OBSTACLE WITHIN 5 NM. UNLESS NECESSARY FOR TAKING OF OR LANDING. OR ON A ROUTE NOTIFIED FOR THIS PURPOSE OR FLYING AT AN ALTITUDE NOT EXCEEDING 3,000FT AMSL AND CLEAR OF CLOUD AND IN SIGHT OF THE SURFACE. COLLISION AVOIDANCE IS BY SEE-AND-AVOID AND RANDOM SEPARATION.
Since a Glider Pilot does not require to hold a licence there is no restriction on flying under IMC outwith controlled airspace above 3,000 ft. As stated above a glider cannot comply with the quadrantal rule as it would effectively have to fly in a fixed rectangle as it either gained or lost height.
In class "G" airspace there is no requirement under IFR to have Radio or indeed be incontact with ATC. Separation is Not Provided and the Flight Information Service is only as good as the number of aircraft known to the controller or actually speaking to him/her. This is of course subject to flying at an airspeed below 250 knots.
There is an allocated gliding frequency of 130.4 for cloud flying gliders and there is also a requirement for any glider entering cloud to call on this frequency prior to entry. There are also other rules in repect of permitted methods of entry and proximities to gliding sites but these are irrelevant to this debate.
In IMC conditions outside controlled airspace above 3,000ft power aircraft can be expected to be flying according to the quadrantal height rule. "then goes on to describe the rule and also refers to flight above FL245"
NOTE - SINCE GLIDERS ARE ALWAYS EITHER CLIMBING OR DESCENDING AND NEVER IN STEADY LEVEL CRUISING FLIGHT, THE "QUADRANTAL RULE" IS IRRELEVANT TO THEM. THERE ARE THERFORE NO SPECIAL RULES FOR IFR FLIGHT BY GLIDERS OUTSIDE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE AT ANY HEIGHT EXCEPT FOR MINIMUM HEIGHT SPECIFIED IN RULE 29 (1000FT MIN ABOVE HIGHEST OBSTACLE WITHIN 5 NM. UNLESS NECESSARY FOR TAKING OF OR LANDING. OR ON A ROUTE NOTIFIED FOR THIS PURPOSE OR FLYING AT AN ALTITUDE NOT EXCEEDING 3,000FT AMSL AND CLEAR OF CLOUD AND IN SIGHT OF THE SURFACE. COLLISION AVOIDANCE IS BY SEE-AND-AVOID AND RANDOM SEPARATION.
Since a Glider Pilot does not require to hold a licence there is no restriction on flying under IMC outwith controlled airspace above 3,000 ft. As stated above a glider cannot comply with the quadrantal rule as it would effectively have to fly in a fixed rectangle as it either gained or lost height.
In class "G" airspace there is no requirement under IFR to have Radio or indeed be incontact with ATC. Separation is Not Provided and the Flight Information Service is only as good as the number of aircraft known to the controller or actually speaking to him/her. This is of course subject to flying at an airspeed below 250 knots.
There is an allocated gliding frequency of 130.4 for cloud flying gliders and there is also a requirement for any glider entering cloud to call on this frequency prior to entry. There are also other rules in repect of permitted methods of entry and proximities to gliding sites but these are irrelevant to this debate.
