Gliders and VFR
 

Following the earlier thread re: VFR and IFR...

Do glider pilots understand VFR rules or do they simply choose to ignore them? Or are they somehow exempt?

How often during the summer do you see gliders above 3000' that are clearly within 1500m laterally and 1000' vertically from cloud? I often see gliders thermaling near cloudbase. Is this legal, or do they become IFR above 3000' and consider thermalling to be some crazy climb to a quadrantal FL?


140

ps/ I started out as a glider pilot. I was never told about VFR rules until I commenced PPL training.

I can't speak for the UK - where, as I understand it, glider pilots are regulated by the BGA and are unlicensed - but here in Canada (as in most other ICAO countries) a glider pilot has to sit a written examination to qualify for a pilot's license. Air law is definitely part of the examination, including the minimum vertical and horizontal separations from clouds.

The above being said, it is a fact of life that very few aircraft are equipped with extended yardsticks that allow pilots to accurately gauge how far away they are from clouds. Human nature being what it is, not infrequently pilots are inclined to overestimate the distances involved. That's not an excuse, but it is the reality.

MLS-12D

P.S. In Canadian uncontrolled airspace, the minimum distances from cloud for VFR traffic above 1000' agl are 2000' horizontally and 500' vertically. Sounds like your restrictions are more onerous than ours (no Finals Three Greens, I am not saying that this is necessarily bad; just different).

P.P.S. As I recall (???), cloud thermalling is (or used to be?) legal in the UK, although it is not in North America. Can someone from the BGA shed any light on this?

Gliders are not required to stay VFR in the UK in class G airspace. They are "somehow exempt". Most also know the rules quite well, before going solo.

They also have to pass air law exams (among others) before going cross country, when flying from BGA clubs.

As gliding flight is always either descending or ascending (with some rare exceptions) the quadrantal rules are inapplicable.

From my experience all glider pilot know the rules of 1500m Horizontally, and 1000 feet vertically above 3000' AMSL or 1000' AGL whichever is the higher. It is certainly part of the oral examination here in Aust. However realistically most glider pilot get alot closer than that, however all (unless idiotic) do not actually get into cloud. On somedays with low cloudbase you would be able to do little else if you maintained a perfect 1000' from cloud. Although technically against the rules, its arguable as to whether it is dangerous provided certain precautions are taken, the key one being a good look out and listen on radio for powered traffic. If it a day with complete overcast more distance would be desirable as compared to a day with scattered cloud where you'd be able to see the traffic inbetween clouds. Also avoiding NDB let down area's in cloud.

To be honest has this ever actually caused great distress for you? or caused a near miss? If not then why the bitchy attitude?

I always thought gliders in the UK used clouds for lift to get to those fine altitudes that they achieve - and that they soared in clouds.

I know that in the USA there's a glider pilot's licence - not sure if that allows them to fly in cloud, or if they need an IR to do that. (I suppose I could look it up!)

Cloud flying with gliders, is I belive legal in Europe, however is most illegal here in Australia.

In Germany all glider pilots must pass a complete exam of all the rules just as a motorised pilot does, including a medical. It is only legal to do cloud flying if you have the rating for it... it requires special training and is quite restricted.

I can't really believe that! Here gliders must stay in VMC at all times!

There will allways be idiots that don't stick to the rules and make life difficult for the rest of us. Two summers ago a glider was seen in Class "C" airspace above Frankfurt!! An Airbus just managed to see and avoid him! :mad:

And there will come a day, because of air traffic congestion (and such incidents as above), that they will be required to have a transonder (as soon as the industry manages to put out small, light-weight ones that don't eat up the batterie power).

wishing you all an accident free gliding season in 2004

Westy (also a glider pilot, among single-engine and hot-air balloon ;) )

WestWind1950 wrote:
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Gliders are not required to stay VFR in the UK in class G airspace.
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I can't really believe that! Here gliders must stay in VMC at all times!
======================= [unquote]

I don't know why you can't believe what the law is in the UK. Gliders can and do fly in cloud in class G (not A, B, C , D, E, or F if there were any).

In practice I don't think many do - I am one of the few I know who do - modern gliders are less suited to it than older ones. Gliders can and do commonly go up to cloudbase, however, and as I said before it is not forbidden and therefore is permitted.

I am told that it is legal also in several European countries, though not in France and maybe some others.

As it rarely causes problems, I too can't see any reason for people to get excited about it.

I think there is some confusion netween VMC and IMC comparing them to VFR and IFR. There is nothing to stop a glider pilot flying IMC in class G airspace in the UK. What he/she can't do is fly IFR.

I took my Bronze exam in 1980 and I remember the question being asked and I was very clear about the IMC rules. I have also soared into and climbed within cumulus clouds more than once and quite legally. In Australia where cloudbases are frequently above 10,000', cloud flying is rarely necessary. But it's a diffrent matter trying to fly a 300km task in the UK with a 3000' base.

For those outside the UK, you may be suprised to find there is no glider pilot's licence and gliders are not registered. The sport is self regulated by the British Gliding Association - a system that works. Unfortunately, this may change due to Euro harminisation and the sport will not be better for it.

Cloud flying is not only unessesary in Australia, it is totally illegal. Many gliders here have placards saying Cloud Flying Prohibited, for visiting pilots.

Am I right in thinking that in the UK gliders can fly VFR in any class of airspace? - Anyone....

Kingy

Not exactly Kingy

Radio equipped gliders are allowed to cross class A in VMC if they obtain clearance.

SS

140

Where did you start on gliders? you certainly weren't allowed to even solo before passing an air law exam where I learnt in the early 80's The bronze C exams were not actually much different to the PPL ones exept more emphasis was given to met than in the PPL.

It's been a long time since I flew gliders so I'm fuzzy on the rules. However I do remember on many occassions climbing in in cloud and popping out the side just below controlled airspace which was about FL55 where I mostly flew. On cross countries I very rarely did any cloud climbs as I was too worried I'd lose the plot nav wise.

Thinking logically ... there should be no threat! apart from gliders there should be nothing else in cloud outside controlled airspace above 3000 feet (or below where you are req'd to remain clear) If you fly IFR outside controlled airspace no seperation is provided and therefore flying in cloud would be unwise ... or at least equally as unwise as those "reckless" glider pilots. Over the years I can't think of any occassion where a glider has been hit by another aircraft in cloud ... but I stand to be corrected. What seems to faze most GA pilots is close proximity of other aircraft. You'll find most glider pilots are used to thermalling or ridge soaring close to other gliders and therefore (with some exceptions) aren't to worried about getting close to other craft. Most are very aware of the airspace around them and will usually spot you first and be very aware of where you seem to be going. Unlike a lot of GA who blunder on in a straight line and only scan 180 degrees most gliders only fly in straight lines for limited periods and therefore scan virtually 360 degress all the time.

SS (who looks forward to the day when he can take up soaring again)

Dunno why it's inserted \\ wherever I've added an ' ???

SS

I am puzzled by a lot of the statements in this thread. Maybe someone could explain exactly just what gilders are permitted to do (in UK airspace) that powered aircraft are not. It would be nice to see the bit of the ANO or Rules of the Air that permits it too.

Regards,
Puzzled of the UK

Spitoon, I can't really reproduce the 60-page "Laws and Rules for Glider Pilots" published by the BGA. The exemptions and differences from power flying are part of the ANO and/or Rules of the Air, in various Acts and Statutory Instruments. As I am not a lawyer I don't profess any specialist knowledge, I just look things up that I have not learned by heart if I need to.

I used the term "somehow exempt" because that is how the original questioner phrased it. The ANO/RotA are where the exemptions are defined, albeit possibly in somewhat elusive terms. Unfortunately, "Laws and Rules" does not always reference the exact clause so I can't easily quote them. I think flying in cloud may be related to privileges of licence and CofA of the airframe, but I could be wrong. Glider pilots do not need licences and gliders do not need CAA CofA hence don't have to do some things that power flyers/planes do.

You can always either buy your own copy of Laws and Rules, or read the ANO/RotA from cover to cover, and quote them to show your own erudition in future!

Shortstripper, your experience in the 1980's that air law exams had to be passed before going solo in gliders was not typical. Formal exams have to be passed for Bronze, not solo. It is the practice to ensure that certain rules of the air are known before solo - e.g. rights of way for conflicting traffic etc., but orally not written.

But that's the problem chris, I have looked at the ANO and Rules of the Air and I can't see why gliders are claimed to be 'somehow exempt' from some of the restrictions that are applicable to any aircraft.

Gliders are not subject to the same rules as powered aircraft in UK. It is perfectly legal for a glider to fly near/in/around cloud in class G airspace without even having a radio. it never did me any harm, honest ;)

I wouldn't worry about it too much anyway 140Cherokee, with the performance of modern sailplanes you've got more chance of being hit from behind :E

Luv, Reichman

I believe this all dates from just after WW2 when gliding got going again and the CAA did not want to know about gliders. Agreements were reached with the CAA about VFR and VMC for gliders and these rights seem to have survived until the present day.

Most glider pilots know and respect the limits and there have been few real incidents around them. Many glider pilots climb through cloud to contact waves and soaring conditions above the cloud.

I personally think (prepares for incoming:= ) that this has survived because (CAA) people don't knowhow widespread this practice is and that they don't realise why it's done. However it's only a matter of time before EASA get involved and the associated Grandfather rights disappear faster than cumulus at the end of a good soaring day !!!

BTW - reichmann is probably right, with Gliders that cruise at 130Kts plus they will probably be overtaking you more than getting in your way :p

cheers

Arc

Spitoon, try the section on licences.

IIRC, the ANO starts with a regulation that an aircraft may not fly, and then lists a series of exemptions, starting with the word "unless" or some such thing.

One lot of clauses specify what a holder of a PPL without additional ratings can do, like fly VFR in VMC but not (IIRC) in IMC. Another exemption is something like "glider pilots are exempt from the above " (i.e. having licences) for glider (unmotorised) flights starting and ending in the UK and not going over boundaries of other countries. Ditto for C of A, which may mean that any limitation on cloud flying, or requirements for equipment, are put on by the manufacturer, and/or by the BGA if it is flown under BGA rules (which again it does not have to be, in the UK - see another thread). I am sure we do not have to have artificial horizons to be legal.

I really haven't time or motivation to do the research myself - I am satisfied that what we do is well known, well understood, and does not result in prosecutions or other problems.

Let's see how much I can remember about glider flying in the US.

First, no medical required, you just have to self certify that you're ok - which is why a lot of ...old people do it ;)

Second, you need a license to fly. You can get private, commercial instructor.

I believe there is an instrument add on rating that's available, but I don't know anyting about it and I think it's pretty rare.

You can fly a glider VFR in class A (as I believe you can any aircraft) though you need a special clearence and they block off a section of the airspace for you (assuming they say yes of course).

As for actually flying in the clouds, you probably dont' get too much as the sunnier the day, the more thermals you get - at least in Texas :ok: I don't know anything about orgraphic lifting

Thermals top out in clouds so you can thermal up to the bases and then sort of get a push around and over the top - works in a 182 as well btw.

Yes Chris ...

I think the air law one was a club thing ... but you certainly had to pass all the exams for bronze C. I flew gliders in Germany too where they have licences but no insistance was given to pass any exams before flying, which as a UK non licence holder always puzzled me. So I guess the law regarding gliders in other countries is a bit uncertain too.

Things have certainly changed though as I found out when I went gliding with the flyer list a couple of years ago ... there I was waggleing my fingers for "take up slack" and "all out", to be told ... "Oh we don't do that anymore":rolleyes: I dread to think how the new regs will effect things when (if) they come in.

Some things don't change however, gliding or better still soaring is still a wonderful way to fly and if anybody here hasn't tried it ... they really must! It's like sail boats compared to power boats ... but more so! Nothing ... and I mean nothing! in flying compares to the buzz of setting off cross country knowing that only your skill and a certain amount of luck will decide wether you reach your goal! LONG MAY THE BGA AND FREEDOM OF SELF REGULATED GLIDING IN THE UK SURVIVE OVER TIN POT POLITICS OF EUROLAND!!!

SS