IFR or VFR?
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Surrey, UK.
It seems you two could be right 
Just had a look at the PPL/IR Europe mag:
http://www.pplir.org/journals/old/InstrumentPilot34.pdf
(page 15)
Which, whilst not authoritative, is informative
Since it is an old issue of "Instrument Pilot" non-members can download and read it
Just had a look at the PPL/IR Europe mag:
http://www.pplir.org/journals/old/InstrumentPilot34.pdf
(page 15)
Which, whilst not authoritative, is informative
Since it is an old issue of "Instrument Pilot" non-members can download and read it
Last edited by rustle; 7th January 2004 at 16:38.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
You can't be in receipt of IFR departure instructions, for a start.
You can take off from a farmer's strip IFR, fly 200 miles IFR, and land in VMC at another strip without ever mentioning it to anyone, whether by FPL, telephone or radio, providing you remain clear of regulated airspace.
And remember a few things before we have more expletives about such a trip:
IFR does not necessarily imply IMC
The need to fly IFR might be that you are flying at 500' below a 4000' cloud base in 30km vis (that's IMC!)
Even if you are fully IMC all the way (except the first 500' and the last 1500', say) you are statistically infinitely less likely to have a mid-air than someone else doing the same thing VFR on a gin-clear day.
Will
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From: EuroGA.org
2donkeys / wcollins
Interesting - I didn't know that you get the non-ATC airfield radio operator to telephone London Control (or who-ever else). That's news to me. What if it is a farm strip? You presumably call them yourself.
Of course none of this means anything safety-wise because at best one is going to get procedural separation from known traffic. In a free for all airfield you won't get even that.
So, given that departing "IFR" is likely to mean absolutely nothing, why not depart VFR and change to IFR on the first call to the proper ATCU? I suppose having a pre-assigned squawk saves a bit of time
Having been to plenty of free for all airfields, I think the chance of a collision in the conditions described is far less than on a clear day!
It's been an interesting debate on terminology
Interesting - I didn't know that you get the non-ATC airfield radio operator to telephone London Control (or who-ever else). That's news to me. What if it is a farm strip? You presumably call them yourself.
Of course none of this means anything safety-wise because at best one is going to get procedural separation from known traffic. In a free for all airfield you won't get even that.
So, given that departing "IFR" is likely to mean absolutely nothing, why not depart VFR and change to IFR on the first call to the proper ATCU? I suppose having a pre-assigned squawk saves a bit of time
Having been to plenty of free for all airfields, I think the chance of a collision in the conditions described is far less than on a clear day!
It's been an interesting debate on terminology
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From: TL487591
The normal procedure for an airways IFR departure from an uncontrolled field, does not vary much.
If the field is A/G or FISO controlled the clearance will often sound like this :
"London Control instructs N33NW to remain outside controlled airspace, squawk 1234, and to contact xxx.xx when ready"
Where the field is a farm strip, you could telephone for some sort of clearance, but it is more common to take-off and use either London Information or a local LARS/Radar unit to negotiate your entry into controlled airspace.
Getting a clearance straight into controlled airspace from the ground under either set of circumstances is vanishingly rare because of the airspace that such a clearance would tie up. This is despite it being common practice in the US with its somewhat different airspace structure.
Whether you deem yourself to be IFR or VFR before receiving your clearance into controlled airspace is a decision you take based primarily on the prevailing weather conditions.
2D
If the field is A/G or FISO controlled the clearance will often sound like this :
"London Control instructs N33NW to remain outside controlled airspace, squawk 1234, and to contact xxx.xx when ready"
Where the field is a farm strip, you could telephone for some sort of clearance, but it is more common to take-off and use either London Information or a local LARS/Radar unit to negotiate your entry into controlled airspace.
Getting a clearance straight into controlled airspace from the ground under either set of circumstances is vanishingly rare because of the airspace that such a clearance would tie up. This is despite it being common practice in the US with its somewhat different airspace structure.
Whether you deem yourself to be IFR or VFR before receiving your clearance into controlled airspace is a decision you take based primarily on the prevailing weather conditions.
2D
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: London
2 Donkeys has it spot on and London Inf or the likes of Thames and Farnborough are always very helpful an efficient in activating flight plans in the absence of ATC at an airfield.
The main reason for not leaving VFR and transferring to IFR is that you will save a hell of a lot of radio time if you don't have to file an airborne flight plan. It is better to have it in the system before you leave. (You can fax it to Heathrow or similar and then call them to check it is in before you take off).
The issue, in the weather conditions described, is to get a radar service as soon as you can after departure whether it be RAS or RIS. If you are leaving from an airfield that is not within range of a suitable station then you have to take the chance whether you are VFR or IFR
The main reason for not leaving VFR and transferring to IFR is that you will save a hell of a lot of radio time if you don't have to file an airborne flight plan. It is better to have it in the system before you leave. (You can fax it to Heathrow or similar and then call them to check it is in before you take off).
The issue, in the weather conditions described, is to get a radar service as soon as you can after departure whether it be RAS or RIS. If you are leaving from an airfield that is not within range of a suitable station then you have to take the chance whether you are VFR or IFR
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: UK
Whether you deem yourself to be IFR or VFR before receiving your clearance into controlled airspace is a decision you take based primarily on the prevailing weather conditions.
Interesting situation. Is it OK to simply "maintain VFR" in class E until you get a clearance, even though ATC knows of your intention to be IFR? What's standard practice in the US? Do you file a VFR/IFR flight plan for that, or just file IFR?
(Of course it's irrelevant to most of what we do down south in the absence of class E.)
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From: TL487591
The US position is somewhat different in that at uncontrolled fields, it is usual to call the center on the phone to receive a clearance (with a clearance void time) prior to departure. In this way the situation doesn't occur.
In the case where this is not possible, IFR flights (on IFR Flight plans) must remain outside controlled airspace unless cleared. In the case of class E though, once two way contact has been achieved (defined as an exchange of callsigns) entry is permitted without a specific IFR clearance. VFR flights require no particular formality to enter class E.
If you are filed on an IFR flightplan, and elect to enter Class E claiming to be VFR, this will cause confusion and potential embarassment...
2D
In the case where this is not possible, IFR flights (on IFR Flight plans) must remain outside controlled airspace unless cleared. In the case of class E though, once two way contact has been achieved (defined as an exchange of callsigns) entry is permitted without a specific IFR clearance. VFR flights require no particular formality to enter class E.
If you are filed on an IFR flightplan, and elect to enter Class E claiming to be VFR, this will cause confusion and potential embarassment...
2D
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: united kingdom
Despite being a PPRuNer for a good while, I still haven't learned how to quote properly. So forgive my home made version please.
2 Donkeys said:
This depends very much on which part of the country you fly from and which controlled airspace you want to enter.
I fly from Bourn, Cambs. There is generally no problem in entering the local Class D (Stansted or Luton) on an airborne flightplan. The problem comes in trying to get into the TMA.
The difficulty (as I understand it) is that, even having filed and activated an IFR flight plan, the TMA controllers will not have a flight progress strip come out of their computer for the flight and will be therefore unwilling to accept the flight. The Luton and Essex controllers rarely have the time to solve this little problem for you. (Bourn is about 7 miniutes from Class D and about 8-10 minutes from the usual Class A entry points). This time is not enough to call London Info to request and obtain a clearance without orbiting outside CAS for an uncertain time.
So, what about telephoning before take off? For one flight, as luck would have it with a TMA controller sitting in the right seat, he tried to get the flight progress strip out of the system and onto the Essex or Luton controllers' position by phone before we departed. He succeeded, but it took him two or three calls over about 15-20 minutes and I think his success was more due his intimate knowledge of the system and who to talk to than anything else. In other words, not a method open to the average pilot. Even then, the Luton controller was not expecting us.
That leaves the third alternative, telephoning a local ATC unit (not the uncontrolled departure field) before take off and asking them to prepare the ground for you, so you can get the clearance soon after becoming airborne. I don't believe you have any right to such a service and you are relying on their good offices and other workload and priorities not interfering.
I would say it's an unsatisfactory situation for all concerned, pilot and controllers.
AA.
2 Donkeys said:
"Where the field is a farm strip, you could telephone for some sort of clearance, but it is more common to take-off and use either London Information or a local LARS/Radar unit to negotiate your entry into controlled airspace."
This depends very much on which part of the country you fly from and which controlled airspace you want to enter.
I fly from Bourn, Cambs. There is generally no problem in entering the local Class D (Stansted or Luton) on an airborne flightplan. The problem comes in trying to get into the TMA.
The difficulty (as I understand it) is that, even having filed and activated an IFR flight plan, the TMA controllers will not have a flight progress strip come out of their computer for the flight and will be therefore unwilling to accept the flight. The Luton and Essex controllers rarely have the time to solve this little problem for you. (Bourn is about 7 miniutes from Class D and about 8-10 minutes from the usual Class A entry points). This time is not enough to call London Info to request and obtain a clearance without orbiting outside CAS for an uncertain time.
So, what about telephoning before take off? For one flight, as luck would have it with a TMA controller sitting in the right seat, he tried to get the flight progress strip out of the system and onto the Essex or Luton controllers' position by phone before we departed. He succeeded, but it took him two or three calls over about 15-20 minutes and I think his success was more due his intimate knowledge of the system and who to talk to than anything else. In other words, not a method open to the average pilot. Even then, the Luton controller was not expecting us.
That leaves the third alternative, telephoning a local ATC unit (not the uncontrolled departure field) before take off and asking them to prepare the ground for you, so you can get the clearance soon after becoming airborne. I don't believe you have any right to such a service and you are relying on their good offices and other workload and priorities not interfering.
I would say it's an unsatisfactory situation for all concerned, pilot and controllers.
AA.
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 7th January 2004 at 20:02.
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From: TL487591
The Luton and Essex controllers rarely have the time to solve this little problem for you. (Bourn is about 7 miniutes from Class D and about 8-10 minutes from the usual Class A entry points). This time is not enough to call London Info to request and obtain a clearance without orbiting outside CAS for an uncertain time.
The workload associated with negotiating your own clearance is not trivial and can involve you flying, if not orbitting outside controlled airspace for some time. This makes the UK somewhat unique in requiring IFR pilots to carry VFR charts with them - just in case. UK-based pilots may cope with this adequately. There are many horror stories of foreign pilots struggling badly when their "clearance" contains the line "remain outside controlled airspace". Hard in a C182, very hard in a Citation.
It is a pity that the airspace is too busy and too "uniquely" designed to permit the widespread use of US-style "void after" telephone IFR clearances.
2D
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From: Euroland
Being told "Remain Outside Controlled Airspace" is not a clearance. I fact it is reinforcing the fact that a clearance has not been issued and one must not enter controlled airspace.
On the Class E issue, Once can enter under VFR without clearance and must remain VMC at all times. If IFR then one can not enter without clearance. So, if departing into or towards class E, if one decides to depart VFR and pick up IFR enroute, one must remain VMC until ATC issue the IFR clearance.
That is diffeent from the Class G case which started this all off...where in the case of say the London TMA, one can continue IFR remaining outside controlled airspace until such time as a clearance is issued.
One point to remember with regard to the London TMA is that if one decides to continue enroute below the base awaiting IFR climb, this can in some cases complicate matters because the flight while not in receipt of a clearance will be moving from sector to sector thus slightly complicating the coordination process. Thus it can at times be easier if the flight holds while awaiting clearance...although this varies from situation to situation and from day to day.
However, what must be remembered is that for an IFR flight intending to enter controlled airspace, a SLOT may be issued by CFMU.
Going back to the flight departing and remaining in Class G, as W Collins correctly says, one can be IFR for a number of reasons and provided that one complies with the minimum height rule in descent towards the destination can be FIR from farm strip to farm strip non-radio.
I also agree that possible with the exception of some choke points below the London TMA, one is more likely to have an airprox in VMC than in IMC.
However, the rules require that except for a local flight the combination of forecast and actual weather must show that the flight or portion of flight can be completed in VMC if the flight departs VFR. If the end of the VFR segment is dependent on receipt of a radar service which is not guaranteed, where is the end of the VFR segment?
There would have to be some point where the pilot would say...if I don't have a radar service by XXX, I'll turn back.........however, given the conditions, is a safe VFR return guaranteed?
One can depart IFR from any aerodrome. Remember however that the relevant part of JAR-OPS applies to all flights and sets the weather minima!!
On flight planning...don't forget the Z and Y flight rules!!
Regards,
DFC
On the Class E issue, Once can enter under VFR without clearance and must remain VMC at all times. If IFR then one can not enter without clearance. So, if departing into or towards class E, if one decides to depart VFR and pick up IFR enroute, one must remain VMC until ATC issue the IFR clearance.
That is diffeent from the Class G case which started this all off...where in the case of say the London TMA, one can continue IFR remaining outside controlled airspace until such time as a clearance is issued.
One point to remember with regard to the London TMA is that if one decides to continue enroute below the base awaiting IFR climb, this can in some cases complicate matters because the flight while not in receipt of a clearance will be moving from sector to sector thus slightly complicating the coordination process. Thus it can at times be easier if the flight holds while awaiting clearance...although this varies from situation to situation and from day to day.
However, what must be remembered is that for an IFR flight intending to enter controlled airspace, a SLOT may be issued by CFMU.
Going back to the flight departing and remaining in Class G, as W Collins correctly says, one can be IFR for a number of reasons and provided that one complies with the minimum height rule in descent towards the destination can be FIR from farm strip to farm strip non-radio.
I also agree that possible with the exception of some choke points below the London TMA, one is more likely to have an airprox in VMC than in IMC.
However, the rules require that except for a local flight the combination of forecast and actual weather must show that the flight or portion of flight can be completed in VMC if the flight departs VFR. If the end of the VFR segment is dependent on receipt of a radar service which is not guaranteed, where is the end of the VFR segment?
There would have to be some point where the pilot would say...if I don't have a radar service by XXX, I'll turn back.........however, given the conditions, is a safe VFR return guaranteed?
One can depart IFR from any aerodrome. Remember however that the relevant part of JAR-OPS applies to all flights and sets the weather minima!!
On flight planning...don't forget the Z and Y flight rules!!
Regards,
DFC
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
DFC
Of course, one reason that fewer airproxes are reported in IMC must be that we may be totally unaware of them
Which is why I think that it is more helpful to talk in terms of collisions than airproxes. As Vintage ATCO (I think it was he) said a couple of days ago "a miss is as good as three miles!"
I wonder though, whether the choke points are any more dangerous in IMC than VMC.
I fly between OCK and BIG in VMC on weekends from time to time and it's horrific. Sometimes there seems to be more metal than air.
I don't know if, in the early days, it was easier to see other aircraft than now, but in the present mixed traffic environment in the Epsom area, with 250kt bizjets, 180kt twins, 120kt singles, 100kt rotaries, 80kt singles and 40kt microlights the chances of seeing other aircraft seems to be small. I often fly with two or three other pilots and we all miss seeing something until it zooms past.
What I rely on, and believe to be true, is that the number of people who are flying in Class G and who would choose to be in IMC is considerably less than those who would choose VMC, or not fly at all if VMC is marginal or unavailable, which is why I am happiest in the choke points in IMC rather than VMC. However, I take the precaution of not flying at an exact multiple of 100s of feet (2250 would be typical in the Epsom/Dorking/Guildford area) and I avoid passing through beacons, preferably by a couple of miles.
Will
I also agree that possible with the exception of some choke points below the London TMA, one is more likely to have an airprox in VMC than in IMC.
Which is why I think that it is more helpful to talk in terms of collisions than airproxes. As Vintage ATCO (I think it was he) said a couple of days ago "a miss is as good as three miles!"
I wonder though, whether the choke points are any more dangerous in IMC than VMC.
I fly between OCK and BIG in VMC on weekends from time to time and it's horrific. Sometimes there seems to be more metal than air.
I don't know if, in the early days, it was easier to see other aircraft than now, but in the present mixed traffic environment in the Epsom area, with 250kt bizjets, 180kt twins, 120kt singles, 100kt rotaries, 80kt singles and 40kt microlights the chances of seeing other aircraft seems to be small. I often fly with two or three other pilots and we all miss seeing something until it zooms past.
What I rely on, and believe to be true, is that the number of people who are flying in Class G and who would choose to be in IMC is considerably less than those who would choose VMC, or not fly at all if VMC is marginal or unavailable, which is why I am happiest in the choke points in IMC rather than VMC. However, I take the precaution of not flying at an exact multiple of 100s of feet (2250 would be typical in the Epsom/Dorking/Guildford area) and I avoid passing through beacons, preferably by a couple of miles.
Will
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From: EuroGA.org
2D
My examples above made the assumption that the intention was to depart IFR into the airways system
In which case, surely, one needs to file an IFR flight plan, via Brussells, 3 hours before the flight.
My examples above made the assumption that the intention was to depart IFR into the airways system
In which case, surely, one needs to file an IFR flight plan, via Brussells, 3 hours before the flight.
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From: TL487591
In which case, surely, one needs to file an IFR flight plan, via Brussells, 3 hours before the flight.
However, if you are implying that having a flight plan in the system will in some way ease your clearance into controlled airspace, this is only partially true. There is a considerable gap between filing a flight plan, and finally receiving a squawk, frequency and clearance to blast into controlled airspace. Your flightplan will not necessarily be sent to every conceivable class D provider that you might wish to use to organise you clearance, and therefore you will be treated with caution if you call xyz Approach up unannounced looking for asssitance. This is precisely the point that AlphaAlpha makes.
As a result, the normaly way of getting your clearance, having departed from an uncontrolled field, is to call London Information telling them your registration, position, time of departure and requirements, and they will activate your flightplan and liase with an appropriate ATC unit to arrange your clearance. In due course, they will relay a squawk and frequency and hand you to your airways controller (or as appropriate).
2D
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: UK
It is true that in order to fly an IFR flight in controlled airspace, Brussels needs to get a flight plan. 3 hours is a little extreme, and most flight plans can be turned around inside an hour if you have take the trouble to pre-validate the route.
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From: TL487591
if things are going to get busy.
I have suffered more slot delays since flying heavier higher stuff than I ever have flying unpressurised piston.
Of course, attempting to fly through the Clacton sector at 1600 on a Friday afternoon is asking for trouble
2D
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: united kingdom
Further to the discussion on difficulty of obtaining a clearance into the LTMA when departing IFR from an uncontrolled airfield:
Has anybody tried including in the flightplan address list, the unit which will be initially contacted?
For example, in my scenario above, flying from Bourn south into the LTMA via BKY, including Essex radar in the address list. If so, including an estimate for BKY in the RMKs might also help?
Entirely subjectively, I agree with WCollins in that I too feel happier in IMC, compared to low-level VMC, whether in marginal or good visibility. The low traffic density and big-sky theory do provide separation comfort.
Under circumstances where you are flying at WCollins 2250 feet and there may be VFR traffic below a 1500 foot cloudbase, the availability of a radar service does not help much. Under RIS, a fair proportion of the contacts called will not be squawking, or not squawking mode C, hence you have to trust that they are actually VFR and below cloud, so separated from you. At least this is my mind-set inthese circumstances. The benefits of RAS here are questionable -- you would be lucky to make much progress towards your destination.
AA
Has anybody tried including in the flightplan address list, the unit which will be initially contacted?
For example, in my scenario above, flying from Bourn south into the LTMA via BKY, including Essex radar in the address list. If so, including an estimate for BKY in the RMKs might also help?
Entirely subjectively, I agree with WCollins in that I too feel happier in IMC, compared to low-level VMC, whether in marginal or good visibility. The low traffic density and big-sky theory do provide separation comfort.
Under circumstances where you are flying at WCollins 2250 feet and there may be VFR traffic below a 1500 foot cloudbase, the availability of a radar service does not help much. Under RIS, a fair proportion of the contacts called will not be squawking, or not squawking mode C, hence you have to trust that they are actually VFR and below cloud, so separated from you. At least this is my mind-set inthese circumstances. The benefits of RAS here are questionable -- you would be lucky to make much progress towards your destination.
AA
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From: Milliways
However, if you are implying that having a flight plan in the system will in some way ease your clearance into controlled airspace, this is only partially true. There is a considerable gap between filing a flight plan, and finally receiving a squawk, frequency and clearance to blast into controlled airspace. Your flightplan will not necessarily be sent to every conceivable class D provider that you might wish to use to organise you clearance, and therefore you will be treated with caution if you call xyz Approach up unannounced looking for asssitance.
Just another drop of oil into the vast number of cogs.....
