IFR or VFR?
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IFR or VFR?
Setting the scene:
3500 -RA SCT004 BKN006 OVC008
You want to depart in a fixed wing from an airfield with the above weather. You elect to depart VFR and immediately enter IMC on departure, climb to your desired altitude which is a common altitude flown in this congested airspace of the UK where further climb is limited by the TMA. As you have departed VFR, you are receiving no form of radar service even though good coverage and service is provided by two separate radar units located nearby.
Questions posed:
1: Is this departure legal under the VFR rules and do you consider these rules are clear, and understood fully by pilots or are they unduly confusing?
2: If it is considered legal, do you consider it sensible to depart in these conditions, fly IMC with no form of radar cover, and no way of avoiding other aircraft which may be in your path?
3: If the rules are understood and it is not considered sensible, what reasons would a pilot choose for not departing IFR? Is there a worry about route charges or something similar?
Discuss!
(edited for typos)
3500 -RA SCT004 BKN006 OVC008
You want to depart in a fixed wing from an airfield with the above weather. You elect to depart VFR and immediately enter IMC on departure, climb to your desired altitude which is a common altitude flown in this congested airspace of the UK where further climb is limited by the TMA. As you have departed VFR, you are receiving no form of radar service even though good coverage and service is provided by two separate radar units located nearby.
Questions posed:
1: Is this departure legal under the VFR rules and do you consider these rules are clear, and understood fully by pilots or are they unduly confusing?
2: If it is considered legal, do you consider it sensible to depart in these conditions, fly IMC with no form of radar cover, and no way of avoiding other aircraft which may be in your path?
3: If the rules are understood and it is not considered sensible, what reasons would a pilot choose for not departing IFR? Is there a worry about route charges or something similar?
Discuss!
(edited for typos)
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OK...
1 - if you're under 140kts then with 3k+ visibility I think it is legal. I guess the "I think" means that yes, the rules can be confusing, but the they are probably fine in most conditions - I think the confusion is for conditions far below what most PPLs or PPL/IMCs would fly in.
2 - Departure in these conditions is reasonable with an IR, bit daft with just an IMC (cloud conditions are well below the recommended minima for an IMC holder). I'm assuming that there's no icing or the aeroplane can cope with it. En route, well there's not going to be very much in the way of traffic flying in uncontrolled airspace in that weather and it's a big sky. I'd guess that the chances of a mid-air are much lower than other failures that could spoil your day (although I have no data to substantiate that).
3 - Dunno, ISTR that route charges could be involved.
1 - if you're under 140kts then with 3k+ visibility I think it is legal. I guess the "I think" means that yes, the rules can be confusing, but the they are probably fine in most conditions - I think the confusion is for conditions far below what most PPLs or PPL/IMCs would fly in.
2 - Departure in these conditions is reasonable with an IR, bit daft with just an IMC (cloud conditions are well below the recommended minima for an IMC holder). I'm assuming that there's no icing or the aeroplane can cope with it. En route, well there's not going to be very much in the way of traffic flying in uncontrolled airspace in that weather and it's a big sky. I'd guess that the chances of a mid-air are much lower than other failures that could spoil your day (although I have no data to substantiate that).
3 - Dunno, ISTR that route charges could be involved.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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1) I think it's legal to take off, but I'm not certain... but only if there are sufficient gaps in the "SCT004" layer for you to get high enough to satisfy the 500' rule. It is not legal to enter the clouds.
2) If you're departing VFR, then it's not legal to do what you're suggesting, because you're not allowed to enter cloud. If you're departing IFR, then it is legal. As for sensible, that would depend how busy the airspace was, and whether it is in controlled airspace. If it's in controlled airspace (even non-radar) then ATC will provide me with at least some separation. (Assuming Class D, they will separate me from other IFR aircraft only), so I see no problem with it.
If it's uncontrolled, then you have two choices. Option 1 is what you are describing, except that you would be IFR, not VFR. I would suggest that this is only safe in very quiet airspace. Option 2 is to depart VFR, level off below the clouds, and stay there until you get a radar service. Since not many private pilots fly in this type of weather, LARS stations are generally quiet so getting a radar service, assuming you're in area that's covered, won't be a problem.
3) Can't think of any reason for departing VFR in these conditions, unless, as I described above, you're planning on levelling off before getting radar service (which you can't do under IFR in these conditions because of the 1000' rule).
I think, though, that most of these problems answer themselves once you understand the difference between VFR and IFR in UK Class G airspace. Basically, you can switch between the two at will. There is no requirement to tell anyone which set of rules you are flying under at any given time. There is no requirement to be talking to anyone if you're IFR outside of controlled airspace. The only significant differences (apart from the obvious about flying in clouds and out of sight of the surface) are the 1000' rule and the requirement to fly at quadrantal levels if above 3000' when under IFR.
FFF
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2) If you're departing VFR, then it's not legal to do what you're suggesting, because you're not allowed to enter cloud. If you're departing IFR, then it is legal. As for sensible, that would depend how busy the airspace was, and whether it is in controlled airspace. If it's in controlled airspace (even non-radar) then ATC will provide me with at least some separation. (Assuming Class D, they will separate me from other IFR aircraft only), so I see no problem with it.
If it's uncontrolled, then you have two choices. Option 1 is what you are describing, except that you would be IFR, not VFR. I would suggest that this is only safe in very quiet airspace. Option 2 is to depart VFR, level off below the clouds, and stay there until you get a radar service. Since not many private pilots fly in this type of weather, LARS stations are generally quiet so getting a radar service, assuming you're in area that's covered, won't be a problem.
3) Can't think of any reason for departing VFR in these conditions, unless, as I described above, you're planning on levelling off before getting radar service (which you can't do under IFR in these conditions because of the 1000' rule).
I think, though, that most of these problems answer themselves once you understand the difference between VFR and IFR in UK Class G airspace. Basically, you can switch between the two at will. There is no requirement to tell anyone which set of rules you are flying under at any given time. There is no requirement to be talking to anyone if you're IFR outside of controlled airspace. The only significant differences (apart from the obvious about flying in clouds and out of sight of the surface) are the 1000' rule and the requirement to fly at quadrantal levels if above 3000' when under IFR.
FFF
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Can one do an IFR departure from a small airfield with no ATC and no IAP? I don't think so, and this is why one would depart VFR.
Assuming an IMCR or IR pilot and an aircraft suitably equipped for flight in real IMC (i.e. not your typical self fly hire spamcan) there is nothing illegal about the scenario described, departing VFR and changing to IFR right away and asking for an RIS.
At say 500ft agl you will need to be very close to the radar unit to get RIS because they need both primary and secondary returns. In fact I recall something about radar units not providing a RIS below 1000ft or something like that.
I would ask the tower to call the radar unit so you takeoff with the squawk already set.
The only real danger (unless one gets into the "IMC without RIS flight is dangerous" argument, for which there is no supporting data) is that on engine failure one would have about 10 seconds to find a suitable field...
I have taken off in OVC003 but that was immediately over water, so no need to look for a field
Then climbed to FL070 and still in IMC... but icing wasn't a problem there.
Assuming an IMCR or IR pilot and an aircraft suitably equipped for flight in real IMC (i.e. not your typical self fly hire spamcan) there is nothing illegal about the scenario described, departing VFR and changing to IFR right away and asking for an RIS.
At say 500ft agl you will need to be very close to the radar unit to get RIS because they need both primary and secondary returns. In fact I recall something about radar units not providing a RIS below 1000ft or something like that.
I would ask the tower to call the radar unit so you takeoff with the squawk already set.
The only real danger (unless one gets into the "IMC without RIS flight is dangerous" argument, for which there is no supporting data) is that on engine failure one would have about 10 seconds to find a suitable field...
I have taken off in OVC003 but that was immediately over water, so no need to look for a field
Then climbed to FL070 and still in IMC... but icing wasn't a problem there.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Can one do an IFR departure from a small airfield with no ATC and no IAP? I don't think so
FFF
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Under these conditions you can not depart VFR.
That is pretty clear from the regulations.
You can only fly in IFR outside CAS but there is no reason why you should not ask for a service from a nearby unit as soon as you find yourself in IMC.
If there is no unit around that can give you a service and you feel uncomfortable you would probably benefit from a revision of your decision making processes before your next flight as it means that you have taken off in rather cruddy weather from an airfield without an IAP.
Some would say that is not the cleverest thing to do if you are in a twin, most would say it was unclever in a single.
FD
That is pretty clear from the regulations.
You can only fly in IFR outside CAS but there is no reason why you should not ask for a service from a nearby unit as soon as you find yourself in IMC.
If there is no unit around that can give you a service and you feel uncomfortable you would probably benefit from a revision of your decision making processes before your next flight as it means that you have taken off in rather cruddy weather from an airfield without an IAP.
Some would say that is not the cleverest thing to do if you are in a twin, most would say it was unclever in a single.
FD
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Under these conditions you can not depart VFR.
FFF
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I faced almost exactly this situation yesterday, except that I would have called it an IFR departure. There was also an IAP (or several) at the departure field.
I didn't go, because I was worried about being above the freezing level and in cloud. Had the freezing level been higher (as it turned out it was, later on), I'd have gone. Legally, I'm sure.
It's probably in the UK AIM, but there's no index to that, and I rarely succeed in finding what I'm looking for in it (short of reading the whole pesky thing each time).
I've flown a lot of "IMC Rating IFR" in the UK, and ask for a RIS whenever I can get one. It's extremely rare for there to be anything else around in those circumstances, so the "big sky" theory protects me.
I also avoid routing over VORs (honeypots) or at round multiples of 500 feet, or at 2400 feet round the LTMA.
Not departing IFR? The only reason would be if you were in something over the magic weight limit, at which point you'd incur hefty Eurocontrol charges. So you depart VFR and avoid the charges, then change to IFR when airborne.
I didn't go, because I was worried about being above the freezing level and in cloud. Had the freezing level been higher (as it turned out it was, later on), I'd have gone. Legally, I'm sure.
It's probably in the UK AIM, but there's no index to that, and I rarely succeed in finding what I'm looking for in it (short of reading the whole pesky thing each time).
I've flown a lot of "IMC Rating IFR" in the UK, and ask for a RIS whenever I can get one. It's extremely rare for there to be anything else around in those circumstances, so the "big sky" theory protects me.
I also avoid routing over VORs (honeypots) or at round multiples of 500 feet, or at 2400 feet round the LTMA.
Not departing IFR? The only reason would be if you were in something over the magic weight limit, at which point you'd incur hefty Eurocontrol charges. So you depart VFR and avoid the charges, then change to IFR when airborne.
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Keef -- I'm not sure you're right about avoiding IFR charges by making a VFR departure (assuming your aircraft is heavy enough to incur IFR charges). My understanding is that IFR charges are incurrred if ANY part of the flight is IFR.
Of course, if nobody knows you're IFR, then you won't be charged.
But the whole point is that you go IFR either because your weather is worse than the VFR minima or because you chose it for safety/convenience. In either case you chose so should be prepared to pay (without opening the avgas duty etc cans of worms or the 'but I got no service' argument ;-)) ).
AA.
Of course, if nobody knows you're IFR, then you won't be charged.
But the whole point is that you go IFR either because your weather is worse than the VFR minima or because you chose it for safety/convenience. In either case you chose so should be prepared to pay (without opening the avgas duty etc cans of worms or the 'but I got no service' argument ;-)) ).
AA.
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Just to recap (for myself
)......UK VFR minima in class G (assuming class G) specify minimums of 1500m vis, clear of cloud and in sight of surface below 3000' and 140Kts. Above 3000' its 5km vis, 1500m from cloud and 1000' vertical seperation from cloud....
So i suppose in theory you could depart VFR and remain "clear of cloud and in sight of the surface" and not break the 500 or 1500' rule.
As mentioned, switching between VFR and IFR outside CAS in the UK is a sinch, you just do it. Depending on why I wanted to fly would determing whether I depart IFR VFR or at all. If travelling A to B, I would file an IFR flight plan (icing permitting) and depart IFR. If I was just going for a jolly, I wouldn't go, as "Max VFR" (named after a friend of mine, who specialized in dodgey VFR) is highly dangerous in my book.
Departing IFR, and filing an IFR flight plan would probably help in getting a RAS, though I am not sure on how the system works with regards to routing IFR flight plans. Probably a LARS unit wouldn't get a copy. Every time I've pre-filed though, it certainly seems easier to get a RAS. Also pre-filing seems to help getting airspace transitions, and you won't get a routing change unless you are inside CAS and they want to change your route for some reason. ATC cannot route you through un CAS, and to enter CAS you'd have to have an IR and fly the airways. When transitioning Class D airspace, you'll be provided Radar Control service, where you're essentially given vectors to fly, so no big deal there.
Probably the worst thing you could do in this situation is depart VFR, then switch to IFR once airborne especially if you then want to negotiate CAS transitions. At least when you pre-file, someone knows you're going to be there.....
Cheers
EA
PS Depating a field with no IAP is no problem. Just remember you may not get back in again in an emergency, so it could be considered un wise unless you have an alternate nearby, or have made up your own GPS procedure
)......UK VFR minima in class G (assuming class G) specify minimums of 1500m vis, clear of cloud and in sight of surface below 3000' and 140Kts. Above 3000' its 5km vis, 1500m from cloud and 1000' vertical seperation from cloud....So i suppose in theory you could depart VFR and remain "clear of cloud and in sight of the surface" and not break the 500 or 1500' rule.
As mentioned, switching between VFR and IFR outside CAS in the UK is a sinch, you just do it. Depending on why I wanted to fly would determing whether I depart IFR VFR or at all. If travelling A to B, I would file an IFR flight plan (icing permitting) and depart IFR. If I was just going for a jolly, I wouldn't go, as "Max VFR" (named after a friend of mine, who specialized in dodgey VFR
) is highly dangerous in my book.Departing IFR, and filing an IFR flight plan would probably help in getting a RAS, though I am not sure on how the system works with regards to routing IFR flight plans. Probably a LARS unit wouldn't get a copy. Every time I've pre-filed though, it certainly seems easier to get a RAS. Also pre-filing seems to help getting airspace transitions, and you won't get a routing change unless you are inside CAS and they want to change your route for some reason. ATC cannot route you through un CAS, and to enter CAS you'd have to have an IR and fly the airways. When transitioning Class D airspace, you'll be provided Radar Control service, where you're essentially given vectors to fly, so no big deal there.
Probably the worst thing you could do in this situation is depart VFR, then switch to IFR once airborne especially if you then want to negotiate CAS transitions. At least when you pre-file, someone knows you're going to be there.....
Cheers
EA
PS Depating a field with no IAP is no problem. Just remember you may not get back in again in an emergency, so it could be considered un wise unless you have an alternate nearby, or have made up your own GPS procedure
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AA,
That is correct but practice learns that this is an area where they usually don't send a bill.
EA,
Thank you for chapter and verse, so FFF, there you have it, in the scenario depicted I think you will be therefore be struggling to stay VMC.
Not my idea of fun but I know there are people about who would happily launch into something like that.
FD
That is correct but practice learns that this is an area where they usually don't send a bill.
EA,
Thank you for chapter and verse, so FFF, there you have it, in the scenario depicted I think you will be therefore be struggling to stay VMC.
Not my idea of fun but I know there are people about who would happily launch into something like that.
FD
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Departing IFR, and filing an IFR flight plan would probably help in getting a RAS, though I am not sure on how the system works with regards to routing IFR flight plans. Probably a LARS unit wouldn't get a copy. Every time I've pre-filed though, it certainly seems easier to get a RAS.
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Quote:
3500 -RA SCT004 BKN006 OVC008
Quote
2 - Departure in these conditions is reasonable with an IR, bit daft with just an IMC (cloud conditions are well below the recommended minima for an IMC holder).
Why are the cloud conditions well below the minima for an IMC holder?
It depends on what approach systems are available. An ILS or NDB approach with a DH/MDH of 400' or less can be legitimately attempted by an IMC holder in these conditions. For the purposes of takeoff in a single CAP507 states that a cloud base of 1000' agl is the public transport minima but also says that takeoff with less than 600' cloudbase is not recommended.
3500 -RA SCT004 BKN006 OVC008
Quote
2 - Departure in these conditions is reasonable with an IR, bit daft with just an IMC (cloud conditions are well below the recommended minima for an IMC holder).
Why are the cloud conditions well below the minima for an IMC holder?
It depends on what approach systems are available. An ILS or NDB approach with a DH/MDH of 400' or less can be legitimately attempted by an IMC holder in these conditions. For the purposes of takeoff in a single CAP507 states that a cloud base of 1000' agl is the public transport minima but also says that takeoff with less than 600' cloudbase is not recommended.
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Why are the cloud conditions well below the minima for an IMC holder?
I appreciate that the IMC covers a multitude of abilities - there's a huge difference between an IMC issued on the basis of an FAA IR and a bog-standard PPL/IMC like me - and there are IMC holders who could depart. It would probably be a bit daft for most of us.
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Although I don't know who Woss.... is, there is a paranoid side of me that is thinking that it is I who am being targetted by this thread, as I departed Biggin in exactly that METAR yesterday.
I would agree with much of what has been said, pointing out that I have an IR, the aircraft is a de-iced twin (though the freezing level yesterday was 4000'), there is an IAP and ATC at Biggin and that the weather at Farnborough was suitable for vanilla PPL VFR.
Keef is quite right (he knows me well) that the motivation for departing VFR is to avoiding route charges. I am perfectly happy to pay charges in a controlled environment (such as airways) (though I still don't understand why I, in my Aztec, should and a Seneca, or indeed Arrow, shouldn't) but I am damned if I will willingly pay for a service outside regulated airspace which is voluntary and sporadic.
W
I would agree with much of what has been said, pointing out that I have an IR, the aircraft is a de-iced twin (though the freezing level yesterday was 4000'), there is an IAP and ATC at Biggin and that the weather at Farnborough was suitable for vanilla PPL VFR.
Keef is quite right (he knows me well) that the motivation for departing VFR is to avoiding route charges. I am perfectly happy to pay charges in a controlled environment (such as airways) (though I still don't understand why I, in my Aztec, should and a Seneca, or indeed Arrow, shouldn't) but I am damned if I will willingly pay for a service outside regulated airspace which is voluntary and sporadic.
W
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EVO
Actually the cloudbase is 600' in the example. Definition of cloudbase being 'Lowest layer of cloud of BKN or greater, or first layer of cloud if nothing greater than SCT'. If the 'SCT' amount was only 3 oktas (SCT being 3 or 4) then it's quite concievable that you could avoid it quite happily.
Nothing wrong with the VFR departure as quoted and then redeclaring yourself IFR on departure. As class 'G' airspace does not require any form of IFR clearance then it's up to the pilot to fly iaw the Instrument Flight Rules, none of which require any form of ATC intervention unless requested by the pilot. It's like everything in flying - you make your own risk assesment and fly accordingly. If it was WCollins in this scenario then I don't have a problem with it knowing the man, the experience and the equipment involved, as well as the airspace. I would have quite happily done the same.
With the weather given you could be flying into cloud at 400 feet, and "takeoff with less than 600' cloudbase is not recommended".
Nothing wrong with the VFR departure as quoted and then redeclaring yourself IFR on departure. As class 'G' airspace does not require any form of IFR clearance then it's up to the pilot to fly iaw the Instrument Flight Rules, none of which require any form of ATC intervention unless requested by the pilot. It's like everything in flying - you make your own risk assesment and fly accordingly. If it was WCollins in this scenario then I don't have a problem with it knowing the man, the experience and the equipment involved, as well as the airspace. I would have quite happily done the same.
Woss goin on..? asks a number of related but distinct questions. First the legality issues:
To enter IMC requires (by definition) the flight to be conducted, at that point, under IFR. There is no reason why a flight should not change from being a VFR flight to an IFR flight at any point, from moments after take-off to moments before landing.
In controlled airspace, a clearance is required for IFR flight. Therefore the scenario described would be illegal, unless approved in advance by ATC in which case it would almost certainly be pointless.
Outside controlled airspace, a clearance is not required for IFR flight. Thus it would be perfectly legal to switch from VFR to IFR when required. The only wrinkle might be if the airport of departure had ATC, in which case the controller has the right to instruct the aircraft to maintain VFR within the ATZ. In those circumstances it would be necessary for the pilot to remain in VMC until outside the ATZ.
Now for the is-it-sensible? issue:
There seems to be a level of confusion about aircraft separation implicit in the question.
On the assumption that the flight is being conducted outside controlled airspace, there is no reason to believe that the flight would be better separated from other aircraft simply by virtue of being IFR rather than VFR. If radar is available, a radar service may (and probably should) be offered to VFR flights as well as IFR flights. If radar is not available, the IFR flight is separated only from other participating IFR flights. If there are none, or the pilot of the departing flight is aware of the other IFR flights known to ATC, then that minimal separtion service is no better than what the pilot can achieve with common sense.
Then the motive:
I would imagine that might be the issue. Charges are applied to aircraft between 2 and 5.7 tons if any part of the flight is conducted under IFR, regardless of the service provided. If a flight departs VFR, it is less likely to find its way onto Eurocontrol's system.
Finally
The complexity of regulations often go with the flexibility they offer. In this case a great deal of flexibility is offered compared with, for example, the German practice of simply banning IFR outside controlled airspace. If the complexity of the UK system troubles anyone, there is no reason why they should not simply decline to fly IFR outside controlled airspace.
1: Is this departure legal under the VFR rules
In controlled airspace, a clearance is required for IFR flight. Therefore the scenario described would be illegal, unless approved in advance by ATC in which case it would almost certainly be pointless.
Outside controlled airspace, a clearance is not required for IFR flight. Thus it would be perfectly legal to switch from VFR to IFR when required. The only wrinkle might be if the airport of departure had ATC, in which case the controller has the right to instruct the aircraft to maintain VFR within the ATZ. In those circumstances it would be necessary for the pilot to remain in VMC until outside the ATZ.
Now for the is-it-sensible? issue:
do you consider it sensible to depart in these conditions, fly IMC with no form of radar cover, and no way of avoiding other aircraft which may be in your path?
On the assumption that the flight is being conducted outside controlled airspace, there is no reason to believe that the flight would be better separated from other aircraft simply by virtue of being IFR rather than VFR. If radar is available, a radar service may (and probably should) be offered to VFR flights as well as IFR flights. If radar is not available, the IFR flight is separated only from other participating IFR flights. If there are none, or the pilot of the departing flight is aware of the other IFR flights known to ATC, then that minimal separtion service is no better than what the pilot can achieve with common sense.
Then the motive:
what reasons would a pilot choose for not departing IFR? Is there a worry about route charges or something similar?
Finally
do you consider these rules are clear, and understood fully by pilots or are they unduly confusing?
If concerned about traffic & are OCTA then make a broadcast: Callsign/type, position, altitude & intention/next position & estimate.
That at least gives a 'heads up' to anyone nearby & on the freq. You can then coordinate your own separation.
That at least gives a 'heads up' to anyone nearby & on the freq. You can then coordinate your own separation.